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So the Ferrus cloning thing is from the short story Imperfect and it appears in Death and Defiance and also in War without end

I guess it could make kinda sense for Sanguinius to come back to life if the Lion is going to as well as you then have the trio who ruled Imperium Secundus. Maybe the 500 worlds are a lost cause and they decide to move to worlds around Terra and have Sanguinius as a proxy Emperor.

Bringing back dead primarchs would be heresy of the highest order.

The more likely scenario would be to bring them back in a non-literal way. For example:

- Instead of Sanguinus, we might see the incarnation of the Black Rage. It's not like the Eldar don't have avatars, great spirits can be manifested and what not. It's not like we don't already have Eldar assisting with the resurrection of Primarchs.

- Instead of Ferrus Magnus, they might bring in some manifestation of the machine god (which is supposed to be a C'Tan buried in a volcano on Mars.) It's part of the fluff and would create a welcome opportunity for Space Marines to get another OP D weapon wielding superheavy LOW.

- Instead of Horus, we already have Abbadon. Perhaps he finally ascends to Daemonhood only to come out looking more like Horus. Gets stats equal to those of a Primarch, only costing twice as many points, no eternal warrior, and with ear and soul blaze.

- Alpharius / Omegeon would be hard to explain if they were anything but Alpha Legion. You know they are not dead. It will probably turn out that they have both been around for a long time and plan to come back once something else is revealed. All part of a master plan.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Ferrus cloning thing is from the short story Imperfect and it appears in Death and Defiance and also in War without end

I guess it could make kinda sense for Sanguinius to come back to life if the Lion is going to as well as you then have the trio who ruled Imperium Secundus. Maybe the 500 worlds are a lost cause and they decide to move to worlds around Terra and have Sanguinius as a proxy Emperor.

Except Lion wasn't killed. Sanguinius was. "Slight" difference.

Not to mention Lion isn't waking up in close timeframe anyway if ever.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Bringing back dead primarchs would be heresy of the highest order.

The more likely scenario would be to bring them back in a non-literal way. For example:

- Instead of Sanguinus, we might see the incarnation of the Black Rage. It's not like the Eldar don't have avatars, great spirits can be manifested and what not. It's not like we don't already have Eldar assisting with the resurrection of Primarchs.

- Instead of Ferrus Magnus, they might bring in some manifestation of the machine god (which is supposed to be a C'Tan buried in a volcano on Mars.) It's part of the fluff and would create a welcome opportunity for Space Marines to get another OP D weapon wielding superheavy LOW.

- Instead of Horus, we already have Abbadon. Perhaps he finally ascends to Daemonhood only to come out looking more like Horus. Gets stats equal to those of a Primarch, only costing twice as many points, no eternal warrior, and with ear and soul blaze.

- Alpharius / Omegeon would be hard to explain if they were anything but Alpha Legion. You know they are not dead. It will probably turn out that they have both been around for a long time and plan to come back once something else is revealed. All part of a master plan.

Abaddon explicitly refuses to ascend to daemonhood or accept any Daemonic gifts because he actually hates the Chaos Gods and plans to betray them so he can crown himself emperor. Accepting power from the Chaos Gods would make him dependent on them, and Ezekyle doesn't want to be dependent on or subservient to anyone.

Do we know what happened to 'little Horus' Aximand?

I don't think primarch avatars would end well. An incarnation of the red thirst already exists, The Red Angel (used to be Meros, not Angron). He naturally became a Khorne follower and I believe took part on some assaults against BA strongholds during the heresy, not sure how he/it ended up though.

And Ferrus being a god-machine is just no, he's a primarch not a god of the Mechanicum.

Maybe the Sanguinor will just get buffed to primarch levels and the ''he's Sanguinius' spirit'' theory gets heavily leant on? Or even flat out stated, they seem to be filling in some of the blank pages of the fluff, for better or for worse.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Ferrus cloning thing is from the short story Imperfect and it appears in Death and Defiance and also in War without end

I guess it could make kinda sense for Sanguinius to come back to life if the Lion is going to as well as you then have the trio who ruled Imperium Secundus. Maybe the 500 worlds are a lost cause and they decide to move to worlds around Terra and have Sanguinius as a proxy Emperor.

Except Lion wasn't killed. Sanguinius was. "Slight" difference.

I know that, where did I say that he wasn't killed. The OP was saying about Sanguinius coming back to life and I was going with that. Rumours have said that the Lion might be coming back, whether they are true or not I don't know. I was just rolling off an idea and trying to give the OPs possible bit of extra credence and a reason why they maybe would bring back Sanguinius from the dead if the Lion were to as well. The Lion might not be Dead, but he's not exactly up and playing poker is he.

tneva82 wrote:
Not to mention Lion isn't waking up in close timeframe anyway if ever.

Guilliman wasn't either. See what happened there.

I'm pretty sure GW has ways to resurrect every single Primarch and even reveal the two missing Primarchs if they believe it will make them more Pounds sterling.

Sanguinius returning would be bad fluff . he sacrificed himself for the emperor and unlike the other primarchs who were mostly questionably dead (Manus also being among their number beheaded is hard to come back from) the only one more unlikely than those 2 is Horus who mind body and soul is just plain gone, capital D dead and gone. It would also sort of cheapen that sacrifice to... oops no he back...

that said it is said the sanguinary may be him and the elder have been using soul stones for longer than Humanity has existed so maybe mechanically Blood andels fight alongside the elder, the new elder death gods see the sanguinary in a desperate moment, trap the soul and force it back into the body like a sort of human wraith construct (essentially how I see guilliman working as he does)

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Sanguinius returning would be bad fluff . he sacrificed himself for the emperor and unlike the other primarchs who were mostly questionably dead (Manus also being among their number beheaded is hard to come back from) the only one more unlikely than those 2 is Horus who mind body and soul is just plain gone, capital D dead and gone. It would also sort of cheapen that sacrifice to... oops no he back...

that said it is said the sanguinary may be him and the elder have been using soul stones for longer than Humanity has existed so maybe mechanically Blood andels fight alongside the elder, the new elder death gods see the sanguinary in a desperate moment, trap the soul and force it back into the body like a sort of human wraith construct (essentially how I see guilliman working as he does)

I'll make one minor quibble correction on this.

Sanguinius didn't sacrifice himself for the Emperor. That may have been an underlying reason, the mission being to stop Horus and being willing to sacrifice himself for that end and stop the heresy. There's more to it than that, though.

He tried to save Horus, despite knowing what was most assuredly going to happen if he tried. Sanguinius, and the others that went on the mission, teleported to Horus's battle barge to try and stop him, to end the Heresy once and for all. However, Sanguinius's motives were more personal. He viewed Horus as not only his brother primarch, but as his true blood brother and closest friend. He, even foreseeing the likelihood of his likely failure in this errand and his own death, he still went to try and get through to Horus. He did this because he could see there was a small, nearly impossible, chance to save Horus and to bring him back from damnation or, failing that, kill him. Of course the mission was to kill Horus, but Sanguinius still had to try to save his brother no matter the odds.

That's why the Black Rage came to be. Horus's final act of betrayal to Sanguinus, the pain and rage at Horus abandoning their brotherhood, a brotherhood that Sanguinius was willing to die for, coupled with the pain of their titanic battle and his own death at Horus's hands. The last thought that crossed through Sanguinius's mind was despair, hurt, and seething anger. Anger that he had been betrayed and anger that he had failed to save his brother. That emotion, the anger and pain, seared into his very genetic code, cursing his progeny for 10,000 years. Had the surviving Angels only known not to use Sanginius's fallen form to rebuild the Blood Angels forces from decimation after the heresy ended, there would have never been a Black Rage to contend with. Still, had they not, the Blood Angels would have disappeared into nothing at the end of the heresy, having been well and truly devastated by the conflict, with almost the entire legion left shattered after the dust settled.

This is why Sanginius is, and will always be, my favorite primarch. He was willing to face almost certain death on what had to be a less than one percent chance to save his brother.

Just offering my thoughts on that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Azazelx wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I'm mostly against bringing back Sanguinius, but I might be okay with it if the story was interesting and clever.

One thing that concerns me is if they do focus on the Blood Angels in an upcoming book. It might not be to the BA's benefit. If GW really wanted to shake up the setting, killing off a prominent chapter and it's successors would fit the bill. The best way to do it would be to put them all in the path of a Hive fleet.

So far 2017 has been a bad year for me and I don't trust it not to get worse.

I think they know that adding more stuff for people to buy is a better marketing tool than invalidating people's entire armies, though.

And on that, what's the deal with Biel-Tan exactly?

Biel Tan still exists, their craft world was effectivly disabled, and is in nasty shape but they'll be able to get it back online, but it will take "Decades if not centuries"


On that note... How many space Wolves are left? they took a real licking at Fenris, and a sizeable chunk of the survivors go to Cadia? the Space Wolves must be in horriable shape right now

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Sanguinius returning would be bad fluff . he sacrificed himself for the emperor and unlike the other primarchs who were mostly questionably dead (Manus also being among their number beheaded is hard to come back from) the only one more unlikely than those 2 is Horus who mind body and soul is just plain gone, capital D dead and gone. It would also sort of cheapen that sacrifice to... oops no he back...

that said it is said the sanguinary may be him and the elder have been using soul stones for longer than Humanity has existed so maybe mechanically Blood andels fight alongside the elder, the new elder death gods see the sanguinary in a desperate moment, trap the soul and force it back into the body like a sort of human wraith construct (essentially how I see guilliman working as he does)

I don't think it cheapens it all that much. I mean being brutally murdered, and I mean so brutal that it makes your progeny go insane 10,000 years later, plus being dead for 10,000 years is still a pretty big sacrifice. Just my personal opinion though so take with some salt.

I always thought that the Black Rage would have settled even if they didn't use Sanguinius' genes.
We know Sanguinius had a certain psychic link to his sons, and I thought the Black Rage just travelled back down that, and imprinted it that way.
On Signis Prime Sanguinius was brought low by the sudden deaths of his sons, I can see his sons being brought low by the sudden death of their father in the same way.

tneva82 wrote:


Not to mention Lion isn't waking up in close timeframe anyway if ever.

If I remember right the Lion can't wake up until a Prince kisses him.

However many primarchs come back, my bet is that the lion will be last. Because dark angels players can't have nice things.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I know that, where did I say that he wasn't killed. The OP was saying about Sanguinius coming back to life and I was going with that. Rumours have said that the Lion might be coming back, whether they are true or not I don't know. I was just rolling off an idea and trying to give the OPs possible bit of extra credence and a reason why they maybe would bring back Sanguinius from the dead if the Lion were to as well. The Lion might not be Dead, but he's not exactly up and playing poker is he.

But Lion coming back doesn't make Sanquinius's return make sense. Lion didn't die. He can come back. Sanquinius died. Takes much more handwaving to have him back.

Just because it can make sense for Lion to come back doesn't make Sanquinius return make sense.

Guilliman wasn't either. See what happened there.

Yes but still. We have no reliable rumours of Lion coming back. Therefore at most he's still way off. Next ones are Mortarion, Angron and Russ. After that who knows. Those 3 will already take time to release. Don't expect Lion in the rush.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Making Abby a daemon prince would only continue the trend that he's a Saturday morning cartoon villain.


Also, Alpharius and Omegon are heckin dead. Dorn McCut Alphabro's face in half and Reboot Goatman killed Omebro.

You are talking about the writers that put Samurai Jack in charge of the Grey Knights.

We've got Saturday morning cartoon heroes, why not Saturday morning cartoon villains?

As for the Alpharius/Omegon situation making either or both still alive because the 'Alpharius' killed by Dorn and the 'Omegon' killed by Guilliman were impostors is the easiest retcon in the world.


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Zustiur wrote:
However many primarchs come back, my bet is that the lion will be last. Because dark angels players can't have nice things.

They can, they just get them in 30k. (No, seriously, go read Ravenwing Protocol and be prepared to say "What the f***?" quite loudly. Half-price Rad Grenades (that was supposed to be my shtick over in Death Guard), Sky Hunters and Outriders in Troops, the power to teleport great distances (move off the table into Ongoing Reserves and re-enter via Outflank on the next turn)...)

tneva82 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

But Lion coming back doesn't make Sanquinius's return make sense. Lion didn't die. He can come back. Sanquinius died. Takes much more handwaving to have him back.

Just because it can make sense for Lion to come back doesn't make Sanquinius return make sense.

For the purpose of this thread I was going with what the OP had suggested whether it makes sense or not. If you don't like the idea of it fair enough. I'm not too crazy on the idea myself but if it could happen then maybe that would be a reason why he could, along with what other reasons they possibly could come up with.

Sanguinius, after GWs current releases, would probably look amazing on the tabletop.

Late to the party but I'm chuck a dollar on Fulgrim coming back due to the line in GS3. Plus, I'm going to throw it out there than Fulgrim, Daemon Prince of the god of perfection with a boner for getting things perfect, was the one who killed Guilliman. I don't think he'd like the Eldar, the space elves who create said God that Fulgrim serves, bringing him back from the dead.

I could totally see Fulgrim returning to wreak full on crazy ex-wife levels of rage on the Imperium in a bid to put Guilliman down once and for all. After all, Fulgrim would loves killing his brothers (Guilliman and Manus) and the chance to kill one a second time would be too juicy to pass up. Cue Fulgrim vs Guilliman Grudge Match

 Deadshot wrote:
Late to the party but I'm chuck a dollar on Fulgrim coming back due to the line in GS3. Plus, I'm going to throw it out there than Fulgrim, Daemon Prince of the god of perfection with a boner for getting things perfect, was the one who killed Guilliman. I don't think he'd like the Eldar, the space elves who create said God that Fulgrim serves, bringing him back from the dead.

I could totally see Fulgrim returning to wreak full on crazy ex-wife levels of rage on the Imperium in a bid to put Guilliman down once and for all. After all, Fulgrim would loves killing his brothers (Guilliman and Manus) and the chance to kill one a second time would be too juicy to pass up. Cue Fulgrim vs Guilliman Grudge Match

I'm stoked for Morti but Fulgrim is the one I am waiting for.

I'm patiently waiting for all of the Primarchs to slowly be revealed one at a time in the coming months.

Mortarion will be revealed in short order I'm sure (teased in the most current Death Guard video that was posted yesterday or early this morning, his massive man reaper being visible at the very end of the video). Then we will likely get a second loyalist primarch, then Fulgrim I expect, then last but not least a third loyalist primarch.

Past that, it's anyone's guess. I still hold some quiet hope that Sanguinius will make another appearance in 40k, but I don't expect it. Likely we'll see The Lion and Russ, or Dorn, or Vulkan, or Khan. Those are the most probable candidates for a grand return in 40k, with the Lion being what I would consider the obvious next choice with the presence of Cypher as a Dramatist Persona in Gathering Storm 3 and the foreshadowing of the blade he's carrying with him.

I suppose we'll see the 'Big Four' Chaos primarchs first, with Magnus (Tzneetch), Mortarion (Nurgle), Fulgrim (Slannesh) and Angron (Khorne) on the traitor side.

I would look to their foils on the loyalist side for likely releases beyond Guilliman.

So Guilliman, foil being Fulgrim
Russ (Obviously), foil being Magnus
Unknown (Lion?, Maybe Vulkan?), foil being Mortarion
Unknown (Sanguinius, Khan??), foil being Angron

Guess we'll see what happens. Can't wait to get a better look at Mortarion in the mean time.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Deadshot wrote:
Late to the party but I'm chuck a dollar on Fulgrim coming back due to the line in GS3. Plus, I'm going to throw it out there than Fulgrim, Daemon Prince of the god of perfection with a boner for getting things perfect, was the one who killed Guilliman. I don't think he'd like the Eldar, the space elves who create said God that Fulgrim serves, bringing him back from the dead.

But he didn't kill Gulliman, just mortally wounded him.

Gulliman didn't die until his life support was turned off

 Deadshot wrote:
Late to the party but I'm chuck a dollar on Fulgrim coming back due to the line in GS3. Plus, I'm going to throw it out there than Fulgrim, Daemon Prince of the god of perfection with a boner for getting things perfect, was the one who killed Guilliman. I don't think he'd like the Eldar, the space elves who create said God that Fulgrim serves, bringing him back from the dead.

I could totally see Fulgrim returning to wreak full on crazy ex-wife levels of rage on the Imperium in a bid to put Guilliman down once and for all. After all, Fulgrim would loves killing his brothers (Guilliman and Manus) and the chance to kill one a second time would be too juicy to pass up. Cue Fulgrim vs Guilliman Grudge Match

I figured Fulgrim would be next since there was a note in one of the GS books (I think it was one of those) of a snakelike creature fighting Imperials.

Yvraine also brought back a rubric marine in front of Ahriman who had been dead/turned to dust for who knows how long. So until we are given some kind of definitive proof of her power or the limits of it, we can only assume she has complete mastery over death and can bring any single being back, provided there's any of them left to be brought back.

Of course that opens up "what if she brought the emperor back" but I somehow doubt she would do that as it would spell trouble for the Eldar, more than any (or all) of the primarchs would.

We shall see.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

GodDamUser wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Late to the party but I'm chuck a dollar on Fulgrim coming back due to the line in GS3. Plus, I'm going to throw it out there than Fulgrim, Daemon Prince of the god of perfection with a boner for getting things perfect, was the one who killed Guilliman. I don't think he'd like the Eldar, the space elves who create said God that Fulgrim serves, bringing him back from the dead.

But he didn't kill Gulliman, just mortally wounded him.

Gulliman didn't die until his life support was turned off

Until this latest turn of events he was at he brink of death, so practically dead. Fulgrim lefthim to suffer. Either way, Fulgrim still killed him, he inflicted the mortal wound.

Abbadon turning into a Daemon prince would be a big break with his character though, he uses Chaos as a tool for his own ends rather than giving himself to it like the Primarchs.
That is presumably why he has not allowed himself to be mutated or ascended before now.

I believe that his theory as to why Horus failed was that the Warmaster gave in to easily to the whims of the Chaos gods.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Unknown (Sanguinius, Khan??), foil being Angron

Going off this theory I can easily see Sanguinius being Angron's opposite. They tried real damn hard to get the Blood Angels to come over to the Khorne Side during the HH and they seem like natural counters to each other. Once you factor in the Black Rage/Red Thirst, they're pretty much two different sides to the same coin. One's just loyal/not corrupted and the other completely gave in to their blood lust/turned traitor.

 ILegion wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Unknown (Sanguinius, Khan??), foil being Angron

Going off this theory I can easily see Sanguinius being Angron's opposite. They tried real damn hard to get the Blood Angels to come over to the Khorne Side during the HH and they seem like natural counters to each other. Once you factor in the Black Rage/Red Thirst, they're pretty much two different sides to the same coin. One's just loyal/not corrupted and the other completely gave in to their blood lust/turned traitor.

If we're doing pair-ups, the big 4 will definitely come back for Chaos, and I don't see Lorgar sitting out a conflict on this scale, particularly if Guilliman is kicking. And if they bring out 5 they'll bring out 6 Daemon Primarchs. Assuming for a second that the dead ones are dead dead deader than dead,

So six for Imperium would be

Guilliman
Russ
Dorn
Vulkan
Khan
Corax
Lion.

Out of those, Guilliman was the only one dead and Lorgar vs Guilliman would be a great option for money making.

Likewise, Perturabo vs Dorn would rake in sales, as would Magnus vs Russ, so those I'd say are guarenteed. Vulkan doesn't really have a couterpart in the Chaos side, but Khan (master duelist) vs Fulgrim would be nice to see, and Lion vs Mortarion as well. That would leave Corax and maybe, just maybe, Alpharius pops up finally? A shadow war in the background between those two would be epic to see. That would leave Vulkan to fight Angron, which doesn't make sense, but it does. Angron is a battle-hungry super-Bloodthirster, who can kill anyone and everyone. But not the big black guy who comes back to life. It would be the perfect foil for him.


As I mentioned before, I could totally see Fulgrim going after Guilliman to kill him again due to Eldar interferance and need for the perfect kill, so maybe Fulgrim adds Khan to his tally and sets off after Papa Smurf?



Just rambly speculation.

I'd like to think this would happen:

Nids are on the brink of taking out BAAL. Rescue fleet arrives with and Guilman. Blood Angels are almost wiped out. The sanguinor is there and getting stronger with every blood angel death.

The necrons arrive with a c'tan and illuminor Szeras. They parlay with the marine force after it becomes EVIDENT that the Sanguinor is infact the spirit of Sanguinius. The necron's say they can merge the spirit of the sanguinor and rebuild the body of Sanguinius using their technology.

It's the 11th hour and they make the deal. Sanguinius is reborn and he's basically ARCHANGEL! The psykic shockwave of Sanguinius's spirit merging with his rebuilt and improved metal body devistates half the hive fleet that shrinks back to the fringes of the galaxy. Thus giving time for more the the story to unfold and for the blood angels to rebuild etc.. etc..




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It ties back in the partnership seen between blood angels and necrons. it ties in the recent partnership between marines and xenos species.

It also can show more insight into what Tranzyn was up to on Cadia

 Deadshot wrote:

 ILegion wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Unknown (Sanguinius, Khan??), foil being Angron

Going off this theory I can easily see Sanguinius being Angron's opposite. They tried real damn hard to get the Blood Angels to come over to the Khorne Side during the HH and they seem like natural counters to each other. Once you factor in the Black Rage/Red Thirst, they're pretty much two different sides to the same coin. One's just loyal/not corrupted and the other completely gave in to their blood lust/turned traitor.

If we're doing pair-ups, the big 4 will definitely come back for Chaos, and I don't see Lorgar sitting out a conflict on this scale, particularly if Guilliman is kicking. And if they bring out 5 they'll bring out 6 Daemon Primarchs. Assuming for a second that the dead ones are dead dead deader than dead,

So six for Imperium would be

Guilliman
Russ
Dorn
Vulkan
Khan
Corax
Lion.

Out of those, Guilliman was the only one dead and Lorgar vs Guilliman would be a great option for money making.

Likewise, Perturabo vs Dorn would rake in sales, as would Magnus vs Russ, so those I'd say are guarenteed. Vulkan doesn't really have a couterpart in the Chaos side, but Khan (master duelist) vs Fulgrim would be nice to see, and Lion vs Mortarion as well. That would leave Corax and maybe, just maybe, Alpharius pops up finally? A shadow war in the background between those two would be epic to see. That would leave Vulkan to fight Angron, which doesn't make sense, but it does. Angron is a battle-hungry super-Bloodthirster, who can kill anyone and everyone. But not the big black guy who comes back to life. It would be the perfect foil for him.


As I mentioned before, I could totally see Fulgrim going after Guilliman to kill him again due to Eldar interferance and need for the perfect kill, so maybe Fulgrim adds Khan to his tally and sets off after Papa Smurf?



Just rambly speculation.

I like all of this except the part where Sangunius doesn't come back haha. I'm biased though. Hadn't even thought about a shadow war between Corax and Alpharius. That would be awesome. Which lead me to another thought....and just throwing this out there...and correct me if I'm wrong...but everyone assumes the Curze is dead but the vid link cut out right before the killing blow was struck. Anyone see any chance of Curze coming back specifically to fight with the Lion when get wakes up? I feel like Curze coming back would definitely be out of left field. The only other time I've read anything else about his death was in the Beast Arises 12 - vangorich mentions the story of the death of Curze but never tells it...so it could have actually have been how he wasn't killed.

Just food for thought.

He doesn't even have to get a death mask back from Dante as his face metallic. he can still be sad and moody and conflicted because he doesn't look like a young robert plant. It would be deep and compelling.