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I am very interested how low STR low AP weapons are handled within an AP modifer system.
Take hotshot lasguns, Str 3 and AP 3. low chance to wound without orders. If the armor modifier is too low then it becomes a horrible weapon (even worse than what it currently is) as the weapon is overpriced for what it does. If anything I hope GW learns the proper point balancing.
Now the real question is...
Will Rend REPLACE AP, or Work with it?
(As AP4 Weapons (of which most have Multiple Shots/a Blast/Template) with -1 Will become Metagame)
I can smell Autocannon Havoc Spam from here
I have been against 40K getting a rules "reboot" since AoS killed Fantasy. Yes Fantasy was limping along mortally wounded, but invalidating all the expensive publications I owned was pretty much the final blow for me.
I only play 40K now, and have not played any other games for years, not even video games (haven't played those in over a decade). So if 40K gets a reboot, I have no choice but to accept it, because I love my models and want to continue using them.
So hopefully one of the following thing happens:
A) The Codices and all other books that have rules for armies stay Valid and the Generals Handbook just simplifies the main rules and errata's the Move Stat for existing units.
B) If all the above rule books are "wiped clean" instead, GW better provide replacement rules for free. And not just digital stuff. I want hard copy rule to hold in my hand. If these are not free, they better be SUPER CHEAP. Like less the $10 per codex cheap
If either of those things happen, I will be happy and full embrace the new 40K: Age of Something, Something.
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:16:05
It isn't about if a weapon would kill stuff its about you no longer needing to choose between anti horde or GEQ, TEQ or MEQ. Or in other words weapons like heavy bolters and their xenos cousins with +1 or +2 str suddenly become the new grav. It sure "rebalances" things like grav but making nearly everything a kill all gun isn't the way to go if you ask me.
This isn't based on 2nd edition 40k. Its based on 5th wfb and modern 40k. I played both a lot and you really do not want their save mechanic near to anything that has tau or eldar guns.
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I personally hope they don't entirely throw out the old rules, as the base rules weren't terrible, just an overabundance of special rules and some imbalance between certain unit types like vehicles vs MCs. It honestly wouldn't be hard to just tone down on the existing rules and try to return to games with comparatively low model counts. I've not seen "horde marines" in person, but the concept makes me die a little.
As heavily alluded to by the Morale rule ideas, I'm very concerned that even "all new rules" might only make things worse in terms of power creep/Herohammer, as it looks like super uber-duber tough awesome guys are going to become even more super uber-duber tough awesome, while high model count armies (Guard, Orks, Nids, one of which is mid tier and the others are bottom tier) will only suffer even more until they're literally designed to lose against the prominent armies: truly devolved into NPCs that exist only to highlight how cool and strong these other armies you should be collecting and playing are.
Also, what if 8th ed is just HOT PRIMARCH ON PRIMARCH ACTION!! The horror... the horror.
Quickjager wrote: I am very interested how low STR low AP weapons are handled within an AP modifer system.
They could give those weapons the old ignores armour or armour piercing (x) rule. it would be more interesting to see what they do with cover saves and inv saves. They might just go all the way and make them to hit modifiers and ward saves ( reanimation protols for everyone with an inv save)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:22:14
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As heavily alluded to by the Morale rule ideas, I'm very concerned that even "all new rules" might only make things worse in terms of power creep/Herohammer, as it looks like super uber-duber tough awesome guys are going to become even more super uber-duber tough awesome, while high model count armies (Guard, Orks, Nids, one of which is mid tier and the others are bottom tier) will only suffer even more until they're literally designed to lose against the prominent armies: truly devolved into NPCs that exist only to highlight how cool and strong these other armies you should be collecting and playing are.
Also, what if 8th ed is just HOT PRIMARCH ON PRIMARCH ACTION!! The horror... the horror.
Jup this seems quite in line with the current releases. Also they might drop the independent character rule and nearly all the equipment rules ...: / Just look at the new Sisters of silence sheets those flamer girls are a different unit from the sword girls this is most likely done with 8th in mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: On the other hand, if this fails, maybe geedubs finally goes belly up like they deserve.
blegh no ofcourse not. They will not go belly up, nor do they deserve it. What will happen is that the game loses some elements of what some of us vets like while gaining some others. I really hope that they leave 30k alone, making it a refuge for those who still want to play old 40k
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:27:39
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KingmanHighborn wrote: Sweeping advances have been nerfed since 4th, is that REALLY necessary?
It doesn't really need updating. All that will happen is blobs via Orks/Nids/Guard will loose more models while other factions won't see their troops dying to sweeping advance. We might as well just reduce Nids to Nidzilla's, completely do away with guard blobs + conscripts and just discontinue orks. Weirdly enough also the armies with the lowest LD values.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've listened to players who aren't happy to loose elite 100-150+ point units to sweeping advances. It's always has been those players who have complained about it. You need sweeping advances to stay in the game in some manner otherwise you'll just have units stuck in assault all game.
don_mondo wrote: Wouldn't mind seeing AP modifiers come back. Bolters -1, Heavy Bolters -3, I think lascannons were -6. But the issue is the easy availability of Invul saves, which the modifiers would not affect.
Might just as well forget all power armour and terminator armour would be joke as well. Heavy bolter reducing terminator to 5+? Gee.
jreilly89 wrote: This thread again? Does this have any actual information, or just more conjecture?
Most of this thread is based on actual information from GW officials at adepticon. While the video seems to be a joke the rest of it seems to be serious enough to present at the event.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:42:42
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jreilly89 wrote: This thread again? Does this have any actual information, or just more conjecture?
Most of this thread is based on actual information from GW officials at adepticon. While the video seems to be a joke the rest of it seems to be serious enough to present at the event.
( I 'll edit the link in once I can find the video with the horrible sound ( for the first 10 minutes ) of a guy who was there who told a similar story as the GW adeption coverage on the community site )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:51:57
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Count me among those who are cautiously optimistic.
A major update to the core rules would be a breath of fresh air. I also think Games Workshop learned their lesson regarding the fluff - I have serious doubts that they'll pull an "Age of the Emperor" for 40k.
Recently the Independent Characters podcast came out with a very good episode about the upcoming Edition Change and big updates in general. They offer a very measured, reasonable perspective on what might be coming, and about attitudes towards those kind of changes in the past. It might do some good for those with doom on the mind to listen to some rational folks go over the subject.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 13:53:43
( I 'll edit the link in once I can find the video with the horrible sound ( for the first 10 minutes ) of a guy who was there who told a similar story as the GW adeption coverage on the community site )
Well, if it actually happens, color me excited. AoS is a far superior system to 40k
Save modifiers and movement rates -very welcome. Not favourable about the changes to morale. I don't see that there was a problem with leadership tests, and it strikes me as a bit silly to have squadies become permenant casualties just because they are shaken.
I don't see how this is AOSing it. It's just changing some core rules, not re-booting the game.
Martel732 wrote: Armor save mods are a dumpster fire. But whatever gw wants.
It's funny how much I disagree. I hate the all-or-nothing of saves at the moment. AP4? Might as well be AP-, have fun with that. Ap3, ALRIGHT NOW WE'RE COOKING! The difference between something that's supposed to be half decent and something that's decent at going through armour is just waaaaaay too big.
Very true, it's always been slowed and problematic, it's great they're now thinking of fixing it. maybe. who knows.
thegreatchimp wrote: Save modifiers and movement rates -very welcome. Not favourable about the changes to morale. I don't see that there was a problem with leadership tests, and it strikes me as a bit silly to have squadies become permenant casualties just because they are shaken.
I don't see how this is AOSing it. It's just changing some core rules, not re-booting the game.
It's AoSing it because that's basically the same rules AoS has right now. Also, Leadership is stupid. It's either impossible to pass (Orks) or largely ignored
If they keep the current weapon stats and APs, they could make the save modifiers like reverse BS:
AP6/- = no modifier
AP5 = -1 to armour save
AP4 = -2
AP3 = -3
AP2 = -4 So a Terminator would still get a 6+ armour save against AP2
AP1 = -5 so it ignores all armour
But of course, they could scrap the AP system entirely.
I won't play 40k in its current state. A lot of that is the rules bloat and that I don't like spending an hour a game in the rulebook trying to find rules contradictions and clarifications.
The other part is all of the armies I really like have really bad rules and I can't get a good quality game in with my models unless my opponent is not min/maxing LVO lists.
So I am fully 100% behind the AOSification of 40k and hope that it returns to something that I can enjoy and use the armies I have without having to follow the meta around and play armies I don't like just so I can get in a good game.
commander dante wrote: Now the real question is...
Will Rend REPLACE AP, or Work with it?
(As AP4 Weapons (of which most have Multiple Shots/a Blast/Template) with -1 Will become Metagame)
I can smell Autocannon Havoc Spam from here
Heh, used to be heavy bolter/assault cannon spam, especially since twin-linked back then meant double the shots. Used to run a dread with twin linked heavy bolters on one arm an assault cannon on the other. He could easily wipe out a 10-man squad of Space marines in a single round of shooting. So yeah, it could become a thing...
don_mondo wrote: Wouldn't mind seeing AP modifiers come back. Bolters -1, Heavy Bolters -3, I think lascannons were -6. But the issue is the easy availability of Invul saves, which the modifiers would not affect.
Might just as well forget all power armour and terminator armour would be joke as well. Heavy bolter reducing terminator to 5+? Gee. Plasma would be pretty useless weapon also.
Well guess if everybody hates anything with better than 5+ armour...
Well, you have to remember (or know) that a Terminator save back then was a 3+ on 2d6... With no Invul unless they could buy a special field (wargear card).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 14:28:02
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Galef wrote: If they keep the current weapon stats and APs, they could make the save modifiers like reverse BS: AP6/- = no modifier AP5 = -1 to armour save AP4 = -2 AP3 = -3 AP2 = -4 So a Terminator would still get a 6+ armour save against AP2 AP1 = -5 so it ignores all armour
But of course, they could scrap the AP system entirely.
A system like this is going to make feel no pain even stronger than it already is.
Same with Stormshields, assuming rending can't touch invuln saves.
Rending will help some armies, and completely invalidate others, like Grey Knights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 14:29:56
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
auticus wrote: The other part is all of the armies I really like have really bad rules and I can't get a good quality game in with my models unless my opponent is not min/maxing LVO lists.
So I am fully 100% behind the AOSification of 40k and hope that it returns to something that I can enjoy and use the armies I have without having to follow the meta around and play armies I don't like just so I can get in a good game.
Aint this the truth, I like Chaos, Orks, and Walkers.
Chaos got a bit of a boost but still there's a world of difference fighting an eldar list and an ork list. They got rid of Animosity in Age of Sigmar so I hope the same comes with 8th Orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 14:30:15
commander dante wrote: Now the real question is...
Will Rend REPLACE AP, or Work with it?
(As AP4 Weapons (of which most have Multiple Shots/a Blast/Template) with -1 Will become Metagame)
I can smell Autocannon Havoc Spam from here
It would replace it, if that's the route they're going.
The way Age of Sigmar works is this:
X unit attacks Y unit. Model Z within unit X has a Greatsword of Choppiness.
Y unit has a Save of 4+.
The majority of X unit has to Hit on a 5+ and Wounds on a 5+. Their weapons have no Rend value.
X unit hits and wounds. Y unit makes their save roll with no modifier from Rend.
Z model has a to Hit on 5+, Wounding on a 4+(a lot of the "specialist" weapons have varying values rather than them being the same). The Greatsword of Choppiness has a Rend value of -2.
Y has to make their save roll, adding 2 to the value required to make the save. Their 4+ becomes a 6+.
Generally there's also special rules associated with the special weapons, stuff like a To Wound roll of a 6 becomes a Mortal Wound(no saves allowed unless there's a special rule on unit Y allowing them to make a save versus Mortal Wounds) or a To Hit roll of a 6 generates an additional attack. There also tends to be special rules associated to the various "loadouts" for a unit; i.e. a unit with two daggers might get to make an additional attack compared to a sword and shield version but the sword and shield version gets to reroll failed Save rolls of 1 or something like that.
Galef wrote: If they keep the current weapon stats and APs, they could make the save modifiers like reverse BS:
AP6/- = no modifier
AP5 = -1 to armour save
AP4 = -2
AP3 = -3
AP2 = -4 So a Terminator would still get a 6+ armour save against AP2
AP1 = -5 so it ignores all armour
But of course, they could scrap the AP system entirely.
A system like this is going to make feel no pain even stronger than it already is.
Same with Stormshields, assuming rending can't touch invuln saves.
Rending will help some armies, and completely invalidate others, like Grey Knights.
That's assuming Feel No Pain and Invulnerable Saves remain as they are.
"Rending", the USR, is not the same as Rend values like in AoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 14:32:58
auticus wrote: I won't play 40k in its current state. A lot of that is the rules bloat and that I don't like spending an hour a game in the rulebook trying to find rules contradictions and clarifications.
The other part is all of the armies I really like have really bad rules and I can't get a good quality game in with my models unless my opponent is not min/maxing LVO lists.
So I am fully 100% behind the AOSification of 40k and hope that it returns to something that I can enjoy and use the armies I have without having to follow the meta around and play armies I don't like just so I can get in a good game.
I love this reaction ( aside from my utter dislike of the word bloat). For the suggested rule changes by GW might exaclty have the opposite result of what you would like them to do.
The current state isn't ideal but the rules aren't that hard to find really they are all in the rulebook, and most of the more regular players know the most important ones by heart. The things that we usually do have to look up are funky unit special rules interactions with each other and the rules. Most likely the new releases such as the time cheating daemon possessed vampire space elfs of cheesy doom, splitting horros, genestealer cults or any of the other new releases they all tend to be released with interesting but quite complex new mechanics that all needed a huge FAQ to make them work. What GW proposed was to give each unit more of those unit specific rules guaranteeing that you are likely to be unfamiliar with more of the special rules of new models.
Your old models having crappy rules, and the net listers having all the power, is most likely not going to change either with new rules set. It will just be an other incarnation of the I come to krump you all list that is going to do the stomping as long as gw isn't going to abandon power creep as one of the essential tools to sell models and the new 40k + AoS releses prove that they aren't likely to change anything about this. Do you really expect GW to make your old army made of old models that you do not have to buy the star of the new edition ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 14:37:10
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Holy flipping bacon. When will gw just learn to LEAVE STUFF ALONE!!!! I had to stop playing fantasy when AOS came out and clusterflipped the whole thing. I've still got 3 huge fantasy army's I can't use. Now they want to do the same thing to 40k???
40k is not broken. It does not need AOS rules. Maybe a few rule consolidations, and some clarity across a few others but seriously. Why the heck do we need new basic rules every 2 years?
If they want competitive play: then release codex updates for all races at the same time with balancing across everything. Imbalance exists now because army's have different level of codex creep.
Variety is good. AOS appeals to some. But just because people buy it does not mean those people buy 40k as well. It also does not mean that everyone who plays 40k will switch over.
If this does happen ... (and gathering storm was indeed the "end times" of 40k.... combined with all the price hikes I will be done. I can not afford to keep paying insane prices for plastic models, 60-70$ for a codex and Likley 200 for the rules every 2 years.
Seriously gw. If it ain't broke don't flipping flip it.
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