Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I think we all at least agree on the 3 following super-factions:

Imperium of Man
Chaos
Aeldari

Each consists of multiple sub-factions that are all Battle Bros with each other. Arguably, IoM has so many subfactions that you could split it into Space Marines and everything not SM.

That pretty much just leaves the other Xenos, who do not fight well with each other (aside from Tau & Necrons). Orks would fight just fine alongside Chaos, but Nids/GSC are no one's friend

 Galef wrote:
So I think we all at least agree on the 3 following super-factions:

Imperium of Man
Chaos
Aeldari

Each consists of multiple sub-factions that are all Battle Bros with each other. Arguably, IoM has so many subfactions that you could split it into Space Marines and everything not SM.

That pretty much just leaves the other Xenos, who do not fight well with each other (aside from Tau & Necrons). Orks would fight just fine alongside Chaos, but Nids/GSC are no one's friend

I was more

Chaos, Nids, Orks and then everyone else.

For Ork mercenaries, they could simply follow the example set by the Fyreslayers. They're Ork, but could work for the others if the price is right.

What if they don't do grand alliances and all this speculation is for nothing??

Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

 greyknight12 wrote:
What if they don't do grand alliances and all this speculation is for nothing??

Doesn't matter, we've been arguing about fixed to-hit and to-wound rolls on this thread, even when the announcement didn't even mention them.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

I'm not sure that the reasonable half is so reasonable. Guilliman was wounded by a Daemon weapon, lay in convalescence and then was resurrected by Xenos magic given by a nascent and growing Chaos God. It's not like the first time a Primarch was wounded by a Daemon weapon and laid in convalescence that things turned out so well.

This Primarch, who went through almost exactly what Horus went through PLUS the Xenos Chaos Deity thing, then immediately went to earth and took over before firing a bunch of people in charge and putting his own people in. And nobody said 'Hey, wait a minute... Horus pt. II - Don't you think we should clarify that you aren't a corrupted Daemonspawn first?"

Ghorros wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

I'm not sure that the reasonable half is so reasonable. Guilliman was wounded by a Daemon weapon, lay in convalescence and then was resurrected by Xenos magic given by a nascent and growing Chaos God. It's not like the first time a Primarch was wounded by a Daemon weapon and laid in convalescence that things turned out so well.

This Primarch, who went through almost exactly what Horus went through PLUS the Xenos Chaos Deity thing, then immediately went to earth and took over before firing a bunch of people in charge and putting his own people in. And nobody said 'Hey, wait a minute... Horus pt. II - Don't you think we should clarify that you aren't a corrupted Daemonspawn first?"

Ok, a dogmatic part and an unreasonable part. As long as it's split up into two. The Imperium is really way too big as a faction, and it's making the entire game unwieldy to balance. Splitting it up would not only make handling the factions much more reasonable, it would also make for a really good storyline.

 Purifier wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

I'm not sure that the reasonable half is so reasonable. Guilliman was wounded by a Daemon weapon, lay in convalescence and then was resurrected by Xenos magic given by a nascent and growing Chaos God. It's not like the first time a Primarch was wounded by a Daemon weapon and laid in convalescence that things turned out so well.

This Primarch, who went through almost exactly what Horus went through PLUS the Xenos Chaos Deity thing, then immediately went to earth and took over before firing a bunch of people in charge and putting his own people in. And nobody said 'Hey, wait a minute... Horus pt. II - Don't you think we should clarify that you aren't a corrupted Daemonspawn first?"

Ok, a dogmatic part and an unreasonable part. As long as it's split up into two. The Imperium is really way too big as a faction, and it's making the entire game unwieldy to balance. Splitting it up would not only make handling the factions much more reasonable, it would also make for a really good storyline.

I do like this bit. I can't tell you how disappointed I am going to be if Karamazov shows up, high fives Guilliman and says "Let's get those Chaos boys now, woo!"

Matt Ward's treatment of The Gathering Storm factions bothered me a lot. It was like looking at melted wax statues of famous people - They were vaguely familiar, but completely different, grotesque caricatures. Except for the Inquisitor/Celestine scenes. Those were awesome.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

Grey Knights will be with the dogmatic half to be sure.

Dark Angles might go either way too, huh?

Ghorros wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

I'm not sure that the reasonable half is so reasonable. Guilliman was wounded by a Daemon weapon, lay in convalescence and then was resurrected by Xenos magic given by a nascent and growing Chaos God. It's not like the first time a Primarch was wounded by a Daemon weapon and laid in convalescence that things turned out so well.

This Primarch, who went through almost exactly what Horus went through PLUS the Xenos Chaos Deity thing, then immediately went to earth and took over before firing a bunch of people in charge and putting his own people in. And nobody said 'Hey, wait a minute... Horus pt. II - Don't you think we should clarify that you aren't a corrupted Daemonspawn first?"

Ok, a dogmatic part and an unreasonable part. As long as it's split up into two. The Imperium is really way too big as a faction, and it's making the entire game unwieldy to balance. Splitting it up would not only make handling the factions much more reasonable, it would also make for a really good storyline.

I do like this bit. I can't tell you how disappointed I am going to be if Karamazov shows up, high fives Guilliman and says "Let's get those Chaos boys now, woo!"

Matt Ward's treatment of The Gathering Storm factions bothered me a lot. It was like looking at melted wax statues of famous people - They were vaguely familiar, but completely different, grotesque caricatures. Except for the Inquisitor/Celestine scenes. Those were awesome.

Did Matt Ward actually write this?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Overall as long as the core game play does not change, deathstars and super friends are addressed, MC are on par with vehicles, im down for what ever makes the game more fun. I just dont wanna walk into the store on my first game of 8th and and have it be nothing like 40k other then name and models like what AoS was to fantasy.

But MC, superfriends and deathstars are what 40k is now...

 jeff white wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Personally I hope Abaddon/Guilliman smash the Imperium in two.
One dogmatic half with
Inquisition, SoB, Templars, Dark Angels, Mechanicus

one reasonable half with Ultras, Wolfes, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Fallen

Both can take Imperial Guard of course.
It would take away from the bloat of imperial factions the game suffers from right now.

Grey Knights will be with the dogmatic half to be sure.

Dark Angles might go either way too, huh?

So... acute or obtuse?

 Jambles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

Semantics the first - who gives a damn if the 'old world' exists in their current world or not? They got rid of the old lore and replaced it dude. Call it whatever you want, I think it was a really bad move.

Actually, the old lore still exists. It talks about that as the "World that Was".

You can think it's a bad move as much as you want; it is not the same thing as a retcon.

Pedantry. Consider that it's not a question of there being a context for where the story went within the universe - maybe all that matters is that Spiderman and Mary Jane aren't together anymore, you know? Remake, reboot, revamp, re-imagining, retcon... it's different, now, than it was before. Arguing the context of the changes is meaningless.

You know, it's okay to just say "Yeah, I used the wrong term there, my bad."

 Elemental wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

Semantics the first - who gives a damn if the 'old world' exists in their current world or not? They got rid of the old lore and replaced it dude. Call it whatever you want, I think it was a really bad move.

Actually, the old lore still exists. It talks about that as the "World that Was".

You can think it's a bad move as much as you want; it is not the same thing as a retcon.

Pedantry. Consider that it's not a question of there being a context for where the story went within the universe - maybe all that matters is that Spiderman and Mary Jane aren't together anymore, you know? Remake, reboot, revamp, re-imagining, retcon... it's different, now, than it was before. Arguing the context of the changes is meaningless.

You know, it's okay to just say "Yeah, I used the wrong term there, my bad."

But why would you, when you can be pretentiously obtuse and feel like you were right all along?

I'm wondering if the shadow wars Armageddon rules might be a clue to how the future of 40k will look. OK, that's on a much smaller scale so it's not going to be the same, but I was thinking more on how the rules are presented within it. Perhaps some sort of hybrid of that and an AoS Warscroll?

I said in an earlier thread that Strength versus Toughness suits games played at the model level, but when it comes to unit level games these days I'm in favour of flat rolls.

Shadowwars Armegeddon is a Necromunda rules. They are a throwback to 2-3rd edition. I very much doubt they will re-release those editions as 8th edition.

Youn wrote:
Shadowwars Armegeddon is a Necromunda rules. They are a throwback to 2-3rd edition. I very much doubt they will re-release those editions as 8th edition.

I know they're Necromunda rules. And I did say that because it's on a smaller scale it won't be the same.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
but when it comes to unit level games these days I'm in favour of flat rolls.

I doubt that 40k will change to a unit level game with 8th

and just having flat rolls doesn't change anything (there is no time saving or another reason why it should work better on a specific scale)

 Galef wrote:
So I think we all at least agree on the 3 following super-factions:

Imperium of Man
Chaos
Aeldari

Each consists of multiple sub-factions that are all Battle Bros with each other. Arguably, IoM has so many subfactions that you could split it into Space Marines and everything not SM.

That pretty much just leaves the other Xenos, who do not fight well with each other (aside from Tau & Necrons). Orks would fight just fine alongside Chaos, but Nids/GSC are no one's friend

Agreed.
Aeldari should not be mixed up with Imperium.

 kodos wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
but when it comes to unit level games these days I'm in favour of flat rolls.

I doubt that 40k will change to a unit level game with 8th

and just having flat rolls doesn't change anything (there is no time saving or another reason why it should work better on a specific scale)

It's already a unit level game...isn't it?

Necromunda and Inquisitor are (or were) model level games and 40k and AoS are unit level games right? Or have I got that wrong?

Well, Roboute Guilliman is able to wield the Emperor's Sword, Chief Librarian Tigurius confirmed him, Marneus Calgar believes it's him, Inquisitor Greyfax believes it, and the Custodes did allow him admittance into the presence of the Emperor. Surely if he was Chaos tainted, someone would have seen/noticed something by then?

There are two schools of thought on Leadership: One is a new leader moves into his position and makes no changes for a while, simply observing and critically thinking about his new position before making changes. The second school of thought is a new Leader comes in, immediately fires a bunch of people, hires those he trusts, and makes big sweeping changes right off the bat to demonstrate they are in charge. Guilliman, being the most politically astute and made to govern Primarchs, immediately saw how bad the Imperium has become and is now trying to save it. So he went with the latter style.

Personally, I think it's too late and the Imperium is doomed. Guilliman may try to save as much as he can, but unless he can get some help, he may just cut loose vast areas of the Imperium, consolidate what power he has, build up his forces, and then embark on a new Crusade.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Well, Roboute Guilliman is able to wield the Emperor's Sword, Chief Librarian Tigurius confirmed him, Marneus Calgar believes it's him, Inquisitor Greyfax believes it, and the Custodes did allow him admittance into the presence of the Emperor. Surely if he was Chaos tainted, someone would have seen/noticed something by then?

Sure, just how Horus' corruption was spotted so fast.....

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
but when it comes to unit level games these days I'm in favour of flat rolls.

I doubt that 40k will change to a unit level game with 8th

and just having flat rolls doesn't change anything (there is no time saving or another reason why it should work better on a specific scale)

It's already a unit level game...isn't it?

40k is a model level game
as gun range, cover, health​, line of sight, movement etc are all per model values
the only unit level rules are that models in units activate at the same time and act together

40k is a model level Skirmish game with rules to handle units
same as Warhammer Fantasy was

GW's unit level games were Warmaster and Epic

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I just really hope the imperium of man is.... nerfed on allies. it is currently just ridiculous. oh look a libraries conclave with white scar bikers, dark angels terminators, iron hands cad for vehicles with iwnd and fnp troops. also we have terminators attached to the new GK guy so reroll saves and improve inv save by 1 so 2++ rerollable TH/SS out front.

How are you managing to fit that all into 1850 while simultaneously forgetting Space Marines somehow forget their Chapter Tactics when joined by different Chapters?

Armor save modificators and Move characteristic looks interesting. I hope in 8th will correct some broken game mechanics.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Well, Roboute Guilliman is able to wield the Emperor's Sword, Chief Librarian Tigurius confirmed him, Marneus Calgar believes it's him, Inquisitor Greyfax believes it, and the Custodes did allow him admittance into the presence of the Emperor. Surely if he was Chaos tainted, someone would have seen/noticed something by then?

There are two schools of thought on Leadership: One is a new leader moves into his position and makes no changes for a while, simply observing and critically thinking about his new position before making changes. The second school of thought is a new Leader comes in, immediately fires a bunch of people, hires those he trusts, and makes big sweeping changes right off the bat to demonstrate they are in charge. Guilliman, being the most politically astute and made to govern Primarchs, immediately saw how bad the Imperium has become and is now trying to save it. So he went with the latter style.

Personally, I think it's too late and the Imperium is doomed. Guilliman may try to save as much as he can, but unless he can get some help, he may just cut loose vast areas of the Imperium, consolidate what power he has, build up his forces, and then embark on a new Crusade.

Yeah, I can see it, similar to how Rome abandoned britian, because they finally got competent leadership who realized Rome was too big to defend. The emperor also realized this problem, which is why he tried to make the Human webway, which would have shrunk the Imperium to a much more manageable size. Ultimately it proved too much for even the immortal emperor of mankind, enabled the Horus heresy, and turned terra into a time bomb that will eventually become another eye of terror. Maybe that's the endgame, terra blows up, Macragge becomes the new capital of the IoM (ala Constantinople and the western Roman empire), and the storm is the fall of the roman empire only in Space.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I just really hope the imperium of man is.... nerfed on allies. it is currently just ridiculous. oh look a libraries conclave with white scar bikers, dark angels terminators, iron hands cad for vehicles with iwnd and fnp troops. also we have terminators attached to the new GK guy so reroll saves and improve inv save by 1 so 2++ rerollable TH/SS out front.

How are you managing to fit that all into 1850 while simultaneously forgetting Space Marines somehow forget their Chapter Tactics when joined by different Chapters?

I am not fitting that into it, I am just stuck playing against such bs as it smashes my orks to bits

@ Kudos

Ah, OK Well, I still say that S v T is now best left to the games at the necromunda size, were individual models matter the most.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Well, Roboute Guilliman is able to wield the Emperor's Sword, Chief Librarian Tigurius confirmed him, Marneus Calgar believes it's him, Inquisitor Greyfax believes it, and the Custodes did allow him admittance into the presence of the Emperor. Surely if he was Chaos tainted, someone would have seen/noticed something by then?

Alpharius is pretty darn sneaky. I'm pretty sure this is all a long con.


I really hope they don't stuff all the non-Eldar xenos together into some weird, fluff-destroying alliance. As has been previously said, they all have enough stuff that could be brought in to make them stand on their own. Yeah, orks can ally with most anyone if they pay but it would make me sad if they end up just being the low-rent henchmen of the cool kids.

@ Dakka Flakka Flame

Well here's how they could get around that:

There could be a faction that's fully devoted to the Waaagh, and Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is the leader of it. In a way, it's like a combo of the Ironjawz and the Bonsplittaz.

Then there's another faction that mercenary. Fights in a very human way, with airstrikes and commandos. Killers for hire.

Then there's a faction that are piratey, looking to acquire loot and kill monsters. Like a cross between the Bonesplittaz and the Overlords (yeah, seriously!)

Then there's the feral orks left over on planets invaded beforehand.

There's four different style armies you could get for the Orks. Enough to make them a proper faction.