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morgoth wrote:

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

you can
I have seen tournament concepts about removing the enemy by turn 1 from the table
does not depend on the opponents list but more on who starts and how the table looks like

morgoth wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Economy is the other part which is lacking, currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases table the opponent in 1-2 turns.

Not really no.

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

So you say no one has ever been tabled by 1st turn shooting?

But yeah, I should rephrase my claim, I will do it now:
".. currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases almost effectively table the opponent in 1-2 turns."

And actually if enemy can shoot more than half of your army in single turn of shooting, it doesn't matter if you actually get tabled or not, you will still lose the game, or atleast it will become very difficult for you to win.

Also this youtube video, showcasing the now-ultra-competitive Traitor Legions Supplement World Eaters Butcher Horde against Tau list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiZR7juqnc

But to you, I presume, bringing Dedicated C&C army against Dedicated shooting army is bringing the proverbial rock against proverbial paper?

I haven't enjoyed the rules for their own merits since 5th edition, so I for one look forward to an overhaul if it actually happens, but I wouldn't be surprised if the changes are smaller than expected.

Lists can be crippled beyond hope on turn 1. Happens to me quite a bit.

I haven't even played a game since 4th or 5th edition, but I definitely welcome a little streamlining because I plan to start playing again and reading the 7th edition book has been akin to reading a textbook. I get the rules but there are so many places they could trim the fat, as it were. Condense rolls, replace large table rolls with cards etc.

 Luciferian wrote:
I haven't even played a game since 4th or 5th edition, but I definitely welcome a little streamlining because I plan to start playing again and reading the 7th edition book has been akin to reading a textbook. I get the rules but there are so many places they could trim the fat, as it were. Condense rolls, replace large table rolls with cards etc.

I also used to play long time ago for several years, CSM, during CSM 3.0 and 3.5 codices. Then finally 4th edition CSM codex hit and I was playing against my friends Tau army who jetpacked everywhere. Teleport homer was lost in 4th edition which made dealing with jetpack infantry pain in the ass, earlier still one could turbo-boost bikes (you got the jink equivalent from turbo-boosting) and then teleport homer in Obliterators or Terminators with CSM codex 3.5. Well long story short, I stopped playing for several years, and got back as of late due to Traitor Legions release. Which was a mistake tbh, CSM is still pretty bad. So now I am also rooting for big changes in the system, while building up 30k army, as I am very dissappointed in current state of 40k.
I hope 40k gets AoSed hard.

Ghorgul wrote:

Also this youtube video, showcasing the now-ultra-competitive Traitor Legions Supplement World Eaters Butcher Horde against Tau list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiZR7juqnc

But to you, I presume, bringing Dedicated C&C army against Dedicated shooting army is bringing the proverbial rock against proverbial paper?

This was honestly the worst World Eaters list I have ever seen. He knew full well what he was going against and yet sunk tons of points into marines with kitted out champs, absolute madness. There was also barely any cover on that table and he spread out his fast units instead of deploying tactically. This is not an ultra-competitive list, it was a fluffy list against a competitive list. The same things that make World Eaters good are the same things that make KDK good: fast, hard hitting units. His army had nothing of the sort beyond his lord.

Yes, the game is imbalanced, but this game was won at the list building level not on the battlefield.

 andysonic1 wrote:
This is not an ultra-competitive list, it was a fluffy list against a competitive list. The same things that make World Eaters good are the same things that make KDK good: fast, hard hitting units. His army had nothing of the sort beyond his lord.

Yes, the game is imbalanced, but this game was won at the list building level not on the battlefield.

Me saying list was ultra-competitive was sarcasm, sorry about that. I just constantly see claims that Traitor Legions made CSM competitive, which has not really materialized in top tournament results, unless you count in Magnus based lists. Otherwise Traitor Legions Supplement is just full of fluffy formations with the anti-CC edition we have at the moment.

Ghorgul wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
This is not an ultra-competitive list, it was a fluffy list against a competitive list. The same things that make World Eaters good are the same things that make KDK good: fast, hard hitting units. His army had nothing of the sort beyond his lord.

Yes, the game is imbalanced, but this game was won at the list building level not on the battlefield.

Me saying list was ultra-competitive was sarcasm, sorry about that. I just constantly see claims that Traitor Legions made CSM competitive, which has not really materialized in top tournament results, unless you count in Magnus based lists. Otherwise Traitor Legions Supplement is just full of fluffy formations with the anti-CC edition we have at the moment.

I kind of saw the sarcasm but I've seen that video passed around without sarcasm before so I wanted to be sure no one got the wrong idea about it. World Eaters can be good, but they won't beat competitive shooting armies. Death Guard come pretty close. Thousand Sons = Magnus and Deamons, basically the KDK of magic users which helps Deamons more than Marines. Until Chaos gets a point decrease across the board with better upgrades (COUGH GRAV COUGH) they won't be competitive.

end rant

Ghorgul wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Economy is the other part which is lacking, currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases table the opponent in 1-2 turns.

Not really no.

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

So you say no one has ever been tabled by 1st turn shooting?

But yeah, I should rephrase my claim, I will do it now:
".. currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases almost effectively table the opponent in 1-2 turns."

And actually if enemy can shoot more than half of your army in single turn of shooting, it doesn't matter if you actually get tabled or not, you will still lose the game, or atleast it will become very difficult for you to win.

Also this youtube video, showcasing the now-ultra-competitive Traitor Legions Supplement World Eaters Butcher Horde against Tau list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiZR7juqnc

But to you, I presume, bringing Dedicated C&C army against Dedicated shooting army is bringing the proverbial rock against proverbial paper?

Only garbage lists get tabled anywhere as fast as two turns without massive luck

morgoth wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Economy is the other part which is lacking, currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases table the opponent in 1-2 turns.

Not really no.

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

So you say no one has ever been tabled by 1st turn shooting?

But yeah, I should rephrase my claim, I will do it now:
".. currently many armies in 40k can shoot so hard they can in many cases almost effectively table the opponent in 1-2 turns."

And actually if enemy can shoot more than half of your army in single turn of shooting, it doesn't matter if you actually get tabled or not, you will still lose the game, or atleast it will become very difficult for you to win.

Also this youtube video, showcasing the now-ultra-competitive Traitor Legions Supplement World Eaters Butcher Horde against Tau list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiZR7juqnc

But to you, I presume, bringing Dedicated C&C army against Dedicated shooting army is bringing the proverbial rock against proverbial paper?

Only garbage lists get tabled anywhere as fast as two turns without massive luck

About 2 weeks ago I took a Hounds of Abaddon/Cyclopea Cabal/Black Legion Speartip into a similar game against Tau, and the Tau player conceded at the end of turn 2.

So how many actual facts to we have yet? I'm genuinely curious

 Just Tony wrote:
So how many actual facts to we have yet? I'm genuinely curious

1.5....

1. We are getting Movement values back


1.5 They are planning on changing how leadership works and are looking to do something similar to what AoS has

morgoth wrote:

Only garbage lists get tabled anywhere as fast as two turns without massive luck

With the current rules forcing a loss if you end a game turn with nothing on the table, all it takes is for a player to leave a little too much in Reserve, regardless of how good their list is. I've seen a few games end in turn 1 over the years due to one player putting too little on the table at the start.

We also have they like Rend values instead of AP.

And they like how the general's handbook gave three different methods of playing the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

morgoth wrote:

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

you can
I have seen tournament concepts about removing the enemy by turn 1 from the table
does not depend on the opponents list but more on who starts and how the table looks like

I am hoping to get the Ynarri jet bike army in close pack formation for my next tournament. If I can get that and turn one. I will see how close I can come to tabling him.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723025.page

Youn wrote:
We also have they like Rend values instead of AP.

And they like how the general's handbook gave three different methods of playing the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

morgoth wrote:

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

you can
I have seen tournament concepts about removing the enemy by turn 1 from the table
does not depend on the opponents list but more on who starts and how the table looks like

I am hoping to get the Ynarri jet bike army in close pack formation for my next tournament. If I can get that and turn one. I will see how close I can come to tabling him.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723025.page

That looks like garbage. Are you trying to tailor to that one specific build and deployment pattern?

GodDamUser wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So how many actual facts to we have yet? I'm genuinely curious

1.5....

1. We are getting Movement values back


1.5 They are planning on changing how leadership works and are looking to do something similar to what AoS has

You forgot the charge gaining initiative.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So how many actual facts to we have yet? I'm genuinely curious

1.5....

1. We are getting Movement values back


1.5 They are planning on changing how leadership works and are looking to do something similar to what AoS has

You forgot the charge gaining initiative.

I did too

so 2.5 things

GodDamUser wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So how many actual facts to we have yet? I'm genuinely curious

1.5....

1. We are getting Movement values back


1.5 They are planning on changing how leadership works and are looking to do something similar to what AoS has

You forgot the charge gaining initiative.

I did too

so 2.5 things

You also forgot to mention that the sky is falling and you might as well sell your armies now before the new rules make you set fire to your Dark Elf army.

 Purifier wrote:

You also forgot to mention that the sky is falling and you might as well sell your armies now before the new rules make you set fire to your Dark Elf army.

Eh, it was only the plastics. If it was OOP metal Executioners or Blackguard I'd be annoyed.

morgoth wrote:


That looks like garbage. Are you trying to tailor to that one specific build and deployment pattern?

That list should beat all of the lists that I faced in my last tournament. The only list I face that might have issues with is the space wolf 9 drop pod army. Plus, it's a very cheap list for me to deploy.

What we know:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/23/warhammer-40000-news-from-adepticon/

morgoth wrote:

Youn wrote:
We also have they like Rend values instead of AP.

And they like how the general's handbook gave three different methods of playing the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

morgoth wrote:

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

you can
I have seen tournament concepts about removing the enemy by turn 1 from the table
does not depend on the opponents list but more on who starts and how the table looks like

I am hoping to get the Ynarri jet bike army in close pack formation for my next tournament. If I can get that and turn one. I will see how close I can come to tabling him.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723025.page

That looks like garbage. Are you trying to tailor to that one specific build and deployment pattern?

Wow. Now THAT is how you diplomatically discuss differences in opinion. Why didn't you just say "Get good" and be done with it?

I believe the appropriate phrase is "git gud".

 auticus wrote:
I believe the appropriate phrase is "git gud".

You forgot to properly address him as "l0ln00b"

That is a fair point.

It's an odd list for sure. Looks like someone wants to REALLY ignore cover.

Youn wrote:
We also have they like Rend values instead of AP.

And they like how the general's handbook gave three different methods of playing the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

morgoth wrote:

You can never shoot the opponent off the board in 1 turn, and 2 turns require them to have a really bad list.

you can
I have seen tournament concepts about removing the enemy by turn 1 from the table
does not depend on the opponents list but more on who starts and how the table looks like

I am hoping to get the Ynarri jet bike army in close pack formation for my next tournament. If I can get that and turn one. I will see how close I can come to tabling him.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723025.page

>Grey Knights
>Tournament army

Pick one.

On topic: it seems like they are going to swing the pendulum back from shooting armies to melee armies, and while that would benefit me greatly I do hope they don't swing too hard. I want to have a fighting chance not be TFG.

 andysonic1 wrote:

On topic: it seems like they are going to swing the pendulum back from shooting armies to melee armies, and while that would benefit me greatly I do hope they don't swing too hard. I want to have a fighting chance not be TFG.

this is GW, they only know the extreme

So a 12 year old and his friend happen to find themselves in a games store and think the miniatures on the wall are awesome. One of them really likes the space marines and another things the necron guys are pretty cool.

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that they'll need a copy of the rulebook and a codex each for the rules they will need.

--- The future ---

So they each grab a box and head to the register. They tell the person they want to play this cool game. He goes on to tell them that the rules are free and they can find the free dataslate inside the box and online for the stats for their models.

After Age of Sigmar happened many people predicted the coming of the Age of the Emperor. They were reminded though that 40k was doing great in terms of sales and Warhammer Fantasy was struggling. So they'd never do the same thing with 40k.

Unless there was another reason. A means of making the product even more accessible to the next generation of gamers. With even less barriers to entry.