Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/03/29 08:33:31
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Basic reading comprehension will tell you that they are combined. Your point is moot.
Nope. Using together does not mean using together as a single weapon. Simply using two weapons together does not fuse them into a single weapon.
Except this is exactly what happens in the rules when they state they are used together and only give one profile. Why would they have not just split the profile in half? I doubt the fist would have soulblaze on its own so why would they do this? Why wouldn't they just give two profiles?
Kriswall wrote: Does he have two weapons with two profiles, each with the Melee type?
OR...
Does he have two modeled weapons with one combined profile?
I think it's pretty clear that, from a rules perspective, he's not equipped with two weapons with the Melee type.
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
If they;re suppose to be two separate melee weapons, why not just list them as two melee weapons like they do for EVERYTHING ELSE.
The use of "these weapons" and the absence of "counts as one weapon" makes it obvious that they are indeed two weapons.
Not what I asked. When a unit profile has two melee weapons GW just writes that is has two weapons. If Guilliman is suppose to have two meleee wepoans, why did they not write in his rules that he has two melee weapons.
2017/03/29 08:43:47
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
you have yet to prove that "used together" means "combined as a single weapon".
Waiting.
Do you want to get your own dictionary or should I tell you what together means?
Feel free. You won't find used together meaning 'combine together as a single entity'.
"Used in combination of" added the one profile they thusly become one weapon as far as the rules are concerned. Together is regularly used for combining objects.
1 to produce or organize something using many different things
Initially, they simply put together a series of guidelines.
The exhibition has been put together by a group of young artists.
2 to make something by joining all its parts
Will you help me put this desk together?
The combination of multiple parts to create one thing, this is what that line is getting at.
3 to choose people or things to form a team or group
A team of experts has been put together to examine the effects of global warming.
The subject here is the team, thus when talking about the team as its own object the parts become combined.
He has two weapons which happen to have the same melee profile. One of those weapons has a ranged weapon profile.
Does the profile phrase that you have to use the same profile twice? No?
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
"Used in combination of" added the one profile they thusly become one weapon as far as the rules are concerned. Together is regularly used for combining objects.
1 to produce or organize something using many different things
Initially, they simply put together a series of guidelines.
The exhibition has been put together by a group of young artists.
2 to make something by joining all its parts
Will you help me put this desk together?
The combination of multiple parts to create one thing, this is what that line is getting at.
3 to choose people or things to form a team or group
A team of experts has been put together to examine the effects of global warming.
The subject here is the team, thus when talking about the team as its own object the parts become combined.
Those aren't for "used together". Try again. Such silliness.
2017/03/29 08:51:56
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
"Used in combination of" added the one profile they thusly become one weapon as far as the rules are concerned. Together is regularly used for combining objects.
1 to produce or organize something using many different things
Initially, they simply put together a series of guidelines.
The exhibition has been put together by a group of young artists.
2 to make something by joining all its parts
Will you help me put this desk together?
The combination of multiple parts to create one thing, this is what that line is getting at.
3 to choose people or things to form a team or group
A team of experts has been put together to examine the effects of global warming.
The subject here is the team, thus when talking about the team as its own object the parts become combined.
Those aren't for "used together". Try again. Such silliness.
If they;re suppose to be two separate melee weapons, why not just list them as two melee weapons like they do for EVERYTHING ELSE.
The use of "these weapons" and the absence of "counts as one weapon" makes it obvious that they are indeed two weapons.
Not what I asked. When a unit profile has two melee weapons GW just writes that is has two weapons. If Guilliman is suppose to have two meleee wepoans, why did they not write in his rules that he has two melee weapons.
2017/03/29 08:52:52
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
If they;re suppose to be two separate melee weapons, why not just list them as two melee weapons like they do for EVERYTHING ELSE.
The use of "these weapons" and the absence of "counts as one weapon" makes it obvious that they are indeed two weapons.
Not what I asked. When a unit profile has two melee weapons GW just writes that is has two weapons. If Guilliman is suppose to have two meleee wepoans, why did they not write in his rules that he has two melee weapons.
Consult your crystal ball to determine what was on GW's mind. I will stick with what the rules say.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 08:54:45
2017/03/29 08:55:40
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
If they;re suppose to be two separate melee weapons, why not just list them as two melee weapons like they do for EVERYTHING ELSE.
The use of "these weapons" and the absence of "counts as one weapon" makes it obvious that they are indeed two weapons.
Not what I asked. When a unit profile has two melee weapons GW just writes that is has two weapons. If Guilliman is suppose to have two meleee wepoans, why did they not write in his rules that he has two melee weapons.
Consult your crystal ball to determine what was on GW's mind. I will stick with what the rules say.
It's a context clue to prove that the rules don't say what you think they say
2017/03/29 08:57:39
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
Obviously if you use a pen together with a pencil they don't necessarily count as a single writing implement. It depends on whether they are wielded singly (in one hand) or dually (each in a hand). And even if its singly in one hand there needs to be the explicit intent to combine their outputs to be a cohesive singular output and not just "using at the same time". Using together most often means that the person happens to be using them at the same time for some one event (like combat).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 09:14:46
2017/03/29 08:57:39
Subject: Re:Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
you have yet to prove that "used together" means "combined as a single weapon".
Waiting.
That is a nice attempt to mislead people into falling into the holes in your logic.
RAW
These weapons are used together, using the profile below
col_impact
These weapons are used together as a single weapon using the profile below
These statements are actually not functionally different, since they lead to the same result - use the profile to resolve the attacks, you have one weapon.
Let me contrast this with what it would have to say to support the separate use:
These weapons are used together, or separately, each using the profile below
Now, if I misunderstood the claim, please clarify what the sentence is supposed to mean.
you have yet to prove that "used together" means "combined as a single weapon".
Waiting.
That is a nice attempt to mislead people into falling into the holes in your logic.
RAW
These weapons are used together, using the profile below
col_impact
These weapons are used together as a single weapon using the profile below
These statements are actually not functionally different, since they lead to the same result - use the profile to resolve the attacks, you have one weapon.
Let me contrast this with what it would have to say to support the separate use:
These weapons are used together, or separately, each using the profile below
Now, if I misunderstood the claim, please clarify what the sentence is supposed to mean.
You are misunderstanding. "Used together" does not mean "used together counting as a single weapon" just like "used together" does not mean "used together jumping jack flash".
"Used together" does not change plural to singular as you would claim.
"Counting as a single weapon" is an entirely distinct rules statement that is absent from the actual rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 09:10:53
2017/03/29 09:05:29
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
It's a context clue to prove that the rules don't say what you think they say
The rules say what they say. "These weapons" means "weapons" and not "weapon"
Yes it is treating the two modeled weapons as a single weapon, that is what it is saying
The problem is the statement "counts as a single weapon" or some facsimile is no where to be found in the actual rules. "Used together" does not change plural to singular.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 09:11:22
2017/03/29 09:13:55
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
It's a context clue to prove that the rules don't say what you think they say
The rules say what they say. "These weapons" means "weapons" and not "weapon"
Yes it is treating the two modeled weapons as a single weapon, that is what it is saying
The problem is the statement "counts as a single weapon" or some facsimile is no where to be found in the actual rules.
It also doesn't say "pair of melee weapons" either. What's your point?
Cause so far all you have going is it referred to weapons in the plural which it is going to do in both situations (since it would be referring to two weapons counting as one)
2017/03/29 09:16:50
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
It also doesn't say "pair of melee weapons" either. What's your point?
Cause so far all you have going is it referred to weapons in the plural which it is going to do in both situations (since it would be referring to two weapons counting as one)
"The Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" is never referred to as one weapon. That's your problem.
To Summarize
Spoiler:
'Used together' does not mean that the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion count as a single weapon.
They are called out as "these weapons" and when they are used together they are still considered weapons and not as a single weapon. No rule designates them as counting as a single weapon so they remain two weapons.
The profiles reference 'this weapon' and so must reference the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion separably since the Emperor's Sword and Hand of Dominion collectively are referred to as 'weapons' and as 'relics' and never as weapon or relic.
Moreover, the Hand is explicitly discussed as being separably a 'weapon' and able to be used as both a melee and as a ranged weapon.
The Hand of Dominion can also be used as a ranged weapon, using the profile below. It may be used as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon in the same turn.
Since the Hand is definitively a melee weapon, this means that the profile has been separably applied to both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion.
This in turn means that both the Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion are melee weapons.
This in turn means that we satisfy the rule that grants an a model an additional attack for having two or more melee weapons.
The argument is proved.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 09:19:51
2017/03/29 09:18:55
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
It also doesn't say "pair of melee weapons" either. What's your point?
Cause so far all you have going is it referred to weapons in the plural which it is going to do in both situations (since it would be referring to two weapons counting as one)
"The Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" is never referred to as one weapon. That's your problem.
These weapons are used together, using the profile below. We are told to use a single melee profile. That's the same thing.
2017/03/29 09:21:43
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
It also doesn't say "pair of melee weapons" either. What's your point?
Cause so far all you have going is it referred to weapons in the plural which it is going to do in both situations (since it would be referring to two weapons counting as one)
"The Emperor's Sword and the Hand of Dominion" is never referred to as one weapon. That's your problem.
These weapons are used together, using the profile below. We are told to use a single melee profile. That's the same thing.
Nope you are simply provided a single melee profile for two weapons. No where does it state to count the two weapons as a single weapon.
Since the Hand of Dominion winds up being individually a melee weapon all on its own we know for sure that the two weapons do not count as a single weapon and that the single melee profile is individually applied to each of the two weapons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/29 09:27:04
2017/03/29 09:23:27
Subject: Does Robute Guilliman have two close combat weapons for counting attacks in CC?
1K Vostroyan Firstborn
2K Flylords
600 Pts Orks
3K Ad-Mech 
