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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you think the Chinese government is going to release an unbiased film about Japan you are completely and utterly socially and culturally ignorant of the relationship between the two nations.

Can you go beyond “baseless accusation” and provide any hint of a semblance of a shadow of a doubt on the historical accuracy of the movie, or are we supposed to believe your word that it is biased without any explanation of how?

The movie is irrelevant. This is the Chinese government about the Japanese government. If you think its unbiased I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Not that it excuses anything that IJA has done, but it's important to note that you shouldn't really take anything their governments say about each-other without and entire salt-mine's worth of salt

Ok. So what in City of life and death should I take with a grain of salt? Anything? Any scene in particular? Or is it just “generic” advice that you decided was totally applicable in this situation because reasons?

Last one, the reason being we are talking about a movie funded by the Chinese government. I don't see what exactly is objectionable about the statement.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you think the Chinese government is going to release an unbiased film about Japan you are completely and utterly socially and culturally ignorant of the relationship between the two nations.

Can you go beyond “baseless accusation” and provide any hint of a semblance of a shadow of a doubt on the historical accuracy of the movie, or are we supposed to believe your word that it is biased without any explanation of how?

The movie is irrelevant. This is the Chinese government about the Japanese government. If you think its unbiased I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona.

We have bridges

 Frazzled wrote:
The movie is irrelevant.

The movie is irrelevant about whether or not the movie is biased.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see what exactly is objectionable about the statement.

I do.
Extracts from Wikipedia:
“The film endured a lengthy period undergoing analysis by Chinese censors, waiting six months for script approval, and another six months for approval of the finished film.”
The idea that this movie is just a propaganda piece by the Chinese government to slander the Japaneses is 100% baseless. And the fact that you don't even bother to check your prejudice about this movie isn't a good sign…

yellowfever wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
If you think the Chinese government is going to release an unbiased film about Japan you are completely and utterly socially and culturally ignorant of the relationship between the two nations.

Can you go beyond “baseless accusation” and provide any hint of a semblance of a shadow of a doubt on the historical accuracy of the movie, or are we supposed to believe your word that it is biased without any explanation of how?

The movie is irrelevant. This is the Chinese government about the Japanese government. If you think its unbiased I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona.

We have bridges

I know. I own them all. Would you like to buy one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The movie is irrelevant.

The movie is irrelevant about whether or not the movie is biased.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see what exactly is objectionable about the statement.

I do.
Extracts from Wikipedia:
“The film endured a lengthy period undergoing analysis by Chinese censors, waiting six months for script approval, and another six months for approval of the finished film.”
The idea that this movie is just a propaganda piece by the Chinese government to slander the Japaneses is 100% baseless. And the fact that you don't even bother to check your prejudice about this movie isn't a good sign…

The fact you aren't familiar enough with their relationship is not a good sign either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see what exactly is objectionable about the statement.

I do.
Extracts from Wikipedia:
“The film endured a lengthy period undergoing analysis by Chinese censors, waiting six months for script approval, and another six months for approval of the finished film.”
The idea that this movie is just a propaganda piece by the Chinese government to slander the Japaneses is 100% baseless. And the fact that you don't even bother to check your prejudice about this movie isn't a good sign…

And I'm not pushing that idea, merely that it shouldn't be taken as an accurate portrayal of history, partially because it's a movie, and palatially because it's produced by the Chinese government. It's like saying I should trust RT to report on things correctly. I'm not saying it's wrong, I don't know, I haven't watched it, but I tend to get my information from historians, not movies from the Chinese government. If you were, for example, talking about an article written by a historian about the Rape of Nanjing, then I wouldn't say to doubt it. Again, the Chinese and Japanese governments hate each other, and taking information from either of them about the other is not a good idea.

Besides, you say it wasn't released in Japan, but why was that? Somehow I think that was more of an economic decision, not the Japanese government stopping them from releasing it in Japan. AFAIK, they do have free speech laws.


And somehow I don't think that doubting gak from China, a country that media, you yourself have shown, has to go through Chinese censors to approve scripts, and has been known to ignore history where politically convenient, and even try to hide it completely, is a problem.

Here's thr thing. Your bashing em on a historical movie made by a state owned company who funded it.

That state does not like Japan. The fact it follows there opinion. Obviously. It spent a year being made sure it did so.

Now the fact some hold people today for actions of grandfathers..

Blimey. Talk about laying down some guilt.
Much as I agree, shrines to war criminals, war crimes and such, all terrible. Thr people walking about in Japan today. Most of em not even born.

The mentality is 100% changed. Japan is not imperial Japan. It can be trusted to use its military forces when appropriately required.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And I'm not pushing that idea, merely that it shouldn't be taken as an accurate portrayal of history, partially because it's a movie, and palatially because it's produced by the Chinese government.

And I'm saying it's just as accurate as any historical movie, and one that is completely non-controversial among historians of the period that are not Chinese…
What would you say if Schindler's list was shown everywhere in Europe EXCEPT in Germany? Because that's basically what is happening with Japan.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And I'm not pushing that idea, merely that it shouldn't be taken as an accurate portrayal of history, partially because it's a movie, and palatially because it's produced by the Chinese government.

And I'm saying it's just as accurate as any historical movie, and one that is completely non-controversial among historians of the period that are not Chinese…
What would you say if Schindler's list was shown everywhere in Europe EXCEPT in Germany? Because that's basically what is happening with Japan.

Nothing, as long as they weren't stopped from showing it. It's the movie-makers choice after all.

Okay, you can put your head in the sand all you want. But no, it's not down to a decision of the movie-makers that has nothing to do with Japanese society and their inability to deal with their country's past.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay, you can put your head in the sand all you want. But no, it's not down to a decision of the movie-makers that has nothing to do with Japanese society and their inability to deal with their country's past.

What? I literally just said it was an economic decision.

So, you don't see the problem of a society that refuse to acknowledge the crime of their past? And keep in mind that I am not talking about being responsible for, I am talking of acknowledging.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay, you can put your head in the sand all you want. But no, it's not down to a decision of the movie-makers that has nothing to do with Japanese society and their inability to deal with their country's past.

What? I literally just said it was an economic decision.

There's no law on having to release a film in every nation.
And . Modern world . In movie screens does not be the only way.

Online, DVD. And others ways this could be seen in Japan.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, you don't see the problem of a society that refuse to acknowledge the crime of their past? And keep in mind that I am not talking about being responsible for, I am talking of acknowledging.

I thought they had, weren't their official apologies?

And I know denial of war-crimes is an issue in the population, but that is largely among the older population, IIRC. I also directly stated as much before. I just don't see how that cancels out the fact that Japan isn't going to go around invading anyone even if they get rid of the Peace constitution (which, again, has a 60% popularity, so is not going anywhere soon). They aren't America, Britain or France after all.

I see no problem with the Japanese maintaining an offensive-capable army.

The thing is, while the PM visits Yasukuni every year, the government has acknowledged and apologized (in a Japanese manner) for the war crimes on more than a few occasions. Of course, it's far, far, far from the extent German government has acknowledged and apologized for its war crimes.

To be honest, after having kids in the Japanese public school system, I realized they don't acknowledge history much at all- outside of the war too. My kids did not learn anything about history at all until they entered U.S. school. They don't know Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi or Tokugawa Ieyasu.

North Korea is a genuine threat. The economies of China, South Korea and Japan depend on each other too much to have a conflict on the scale of WWII.

Not that it matters, but I have relatives on all sides of the war and in 3 of the major countries involved- China, Japan and the U.S.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I thought they had, weren't their official apologies?

That wasn't about acknowledging anything, that was about placating the neighboring countries. An exercise in public relations. Japanese society never acknowledged their war crimes the way Germany did. Movies are never controversial in Germany because they portray nazis as bad

I'm not really sure I trust Japan to not try to retake the Kuril Islands or go for an attempt at repeating Tsushima. Shinzo Abe just sounds like that kind of guy from a very light wikipedia reading .

Then again, we did perform a pretty decent sized Naval Invasion to evict a moroccan fisherman from our piece of rock that had just surged from the ocean.

Okay, it was actually 12 Moroccan Marines (try to say that without laughing, the Royal Moroccan Marine Corps)
But we deployed 48 Marines (oldest Naval Infantry traditions in the world baby!), a bunch of Fighters and Helicopters, retired our ambasssador, put a freighter (probably the only one we have ) on combat alert and reinforced our enclaves.

So I'm not the best person here to critisize ridiculuous and silly military adventurism .

I mean, sure, someone tried to erase the Nanking thing from textbooks, but is anyone expectin Japan to start invading anything considering the state of their population pyramid?
And where would they expand? You can't conquer places anymore, the locals are just gonna watch some youtube tutorials on Urban Resistance and you are in there for a long time and paying to keep hold of a horrible unproductive place.

So, really, it doesn't matter.

Pretty sure 70 or so years separating the japanese and their war crimes is enough. I mean yeah it's bad but the whole sins of the father don't reflect on the son sort of thing. Japan isn't what it was. They do need to admit the past however but considering china becoming a bit more dominant and NK it totally makes sense for them to mobilize more. I mean who else on our side in that area could we ask to mobilize. India perhaps? I won't lie that i'm not aware of their current contributions.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Pretty sure 70 or so years separating the japanese and their war crimes is enough.

Obviously it was not enough for them…

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean yeah it's bad but the whole sins of the father don't reflect on the son sort of thing.

Go tell them that. Go tell them “Your fathers sinned and you are not responsible for it”. It would sure be better than “Your fathers did alright and all your evil neighbors just keep going at you for no reason.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean who else on our side in that area could we ask to mobilize.

South Korea. Well, they already mobilize but you get the point^^.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Pretty sure 70 or so years separating the japanese and their war crimes is enough.

Obviously it was not enough for them…

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean yeah it's bad but the whole sins of the father don't reflect on the son sort of thing.

Go tell them that. Go tell them “Your fathers sinned and you are not responsible for it”. It would sure be better than “Your fathers did alright and all your evil neighbors just keep going at you for no reason.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean who else on our side in that area could we ask to mobilize.

South Korea. Well, they already mobilize but you get the point^^.

70 years is ernough time. Just because they regain ability to mount attack as needed in national defence does not equal the return of the Imperial Japanese empire and pearl harbour 2.

At some point you have to stop beating the grankids for grampas war.

 jhe90 wrote:
pearl harbour 2.

Pearl Harbour was nothing. We are talking Unit 731 2 and Nanking Massacre 2 here…

 jhe90 wrote:
At some point you have to stop beating the grankids for grampas war.

I am not beating them for grandpas war. They were not born at that time, they have no responsibility for it. I am beating them for denying what grandpas did during this war.

Just like I'm not blaming holocaust deniers for an holocaust that happened before they were born, I am blaming them for denying it happened.

You honestly believe that most/a significant proportion of Japanese citizens deny that atrocities were committed during WW2? Really? You're so certain Japan is secretly planning more war crimes that it's like you've gone there recently and questioned passersby whether they believe Nanjing is some government conspiracy and whether they sympathize with aggressive imperialist ideals.

Have you ever actually been there? Visited any of the many WW2 museums or memorials? I got a completely different vibe when I did. The fact of the matter is Japan isn't planning on invading Asia and half the Pacific again; it's simply not sitting idly while North Korea plans who-knows-what with all of these recent weapon tests. If there's any one nation to worry about planning invasions and war atrocities, it's North Korea.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Pretty sure 70 or so years separating the japanese and their war crimes is enough.

Obviously it was not enough for them…

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean yeah it's bad but the whole sins of the father don't reflect on the son sort of thing.

Go tell them that. Go tell them “Your fathers sinned and you are not responsible for it”. It would sure be better than “Your fathers did alright and all your evil neighbors just keep going at you for no reason.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean who else on our side in that area could we ask to mobilize.

South Korea. Well, they already mobilize but you get the point^^.

Again... from my 8 years of experience actually living among the Japanese, I don't think you've got a clue of what you're talking about.

 aldo wrote:
I'm not really sure I trust Japan to not try to retake the Kuril Islands or go for an attempt at repeating Tsushima. Shinzo Abe just sounds like that kind of guy from a very light wikipedia reading .

Then again, we did perform a pretty decent sized Naval Invasion to evict a moroccan fisherman from our piece of rock that had just surged from the ocean.

Okay, it was actually 12 Moroccan Marines (try to say that without laughing, the Royal Moroccan Marine Corps)
But we deployed 48 Marines (oldest Naval Infantry traditions in the world baby!), a bunch of Fighters and Helicopters, retired our ambasssador, put a freighter (probably the only one we have ) on combat alert and reinforced our enclaves.

So I'm not the best person here to critisize ridiculuous and silly military adventurism .

I mean, sure, someone tried to erase the Nanking thing from textbooks, but is anyone expectin Japan to start invading anything considering the state of their population pyramid?
And where would they expand? You can't conquer places anymore, the locals are just gonna watch some youtube tutorials on Urban Resistance and you are in there for a long time and paying to keep hold of a horrible unproductive place.

So, really, it doesn't matter.

I'm from the US the land of Freedom, over the top portions, and ridiculous military adventurism!

Honestly, though they did attack us at Pearl Harbor for no good reason, we did unleash the United States Marine Corps, the greatest fighting force history will ever see, upon them so they've gotten more then their just dues. I'm perfectly ok with them doing whatever so long as they don't try to take other people's sovereignty away from them. In fact the libertarian in me thinks it's preposterous that other countries can dictate how Japan's military can be organized this many years after WWII.

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 aldo wrote:
I'm not really sure I trust Japan to not try to retake the Kuril Islands or go for an attempt at repeating Tsushima. Shinzo Abe just sounds like that kind of guy from a very light wikipedia reading .

Then again, we did perform a pretty decent sized Naval Invasion to evict a moroccan fisherman from our piece of rock that had just surged from the ocean.

Okay, it was actually 12 Moroccan Marines (try to say that without laughing, the Royal Moroccan Marine Corps)
But we deployed 48 Marines (oldest Naval Infantry traditions in the world baby!), a bunch of Fighters and Helicopters, retired our ambasssador, put a freighter (probably the only one we have ) on combat alert and reinforced our enclaves.

So I'm not the best person here to critisize ridiculuous and silly military adventurism .

I mean, sure, someone tried to erase the Nanking thing from textbooks, but is anyone expectin Japan to start invading anything considering the state of their population pyramid?
And where would they expand? You can't conquer places anymore, the locals are just gonna watch some youtube tutorials on Urban Resistance and you are in there for a long time and paying to keep hold of a horrible unproductive place.

So, really, it doesn't matter.

I'm from the US the land of Freedom, over the top portions, and ridiculous military adventurism!

Honestly, though they did attack us at Pearl Harbor for no good reason, we did unleash the United States Marine Corps, the greatest fighting force history will ever see, upon them so they've gotten more then their just dues. I'm perfectly ok with them doing whatever so long as they don't try to take other people's sovereignty away from them. In fact the libertarian in me thinks it's preposterous that other countries can dictate how Japan's military can be organized this many years after WWII.

Well, we don't, them not having a military that can strike outside it's boarder is something in their constitution. Its hard to change, but they can change is, same as us. They have complete control over it these days.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 aldo wrote:
I'm not really sure I trust Japan to not try to retake the Kuril Islands or go for an attempt at repeating Tsushima. Shinzo Abe just sounds like that kind of guy from a very light wikipedia reading .

Then again, we did perform a pretty decent sized Naval Invasion to evict a moroccan fisherman from our piece of rock that had just surged from the ocean.

Okay, it was actually 12 Moroccan Marines (try to say that without laughing, the Royal Moroccan Marine Corps)
But we deployed 48 Marines (oldest Naval Infantry traditions in the world baby!), a bunch of Fighters and Helicopters, retired our ambasssador, put a freighter (probably the only one we have ) on combat alert and reinforced our enclaves.

So I'm not the best person here to critisize ridiculuous and silly military adventurism .

I mean, sure, someone tried to erase the Nanking thing from textbooks, but is anyone expectin Japan to start invading anything considering the state of their population pyramid?
And where would they expand? You can't conquer places anymore, the locals are just gonna watch some youtube tutorials on Urban Resistance and you are in there for a long time and paying to keep hold of a horrible unproductive place.

So, really, it doesn't matter.

I'm from the US the land of Freedom, over the top portions, and ridiculous military adventurism!

Honestly, though they did attack us at Pearl Harbor for no good reason, we did unleash the United States Marine Corps, the greatest fighting force history will ever see, upon them so they've gotten more then their just dues. I'm perfectly ok with them doing whatever so long as they don't try to take other people's sovereignty away from them. In fact the libertarian in me thinks it's preposterous that other countries can dictate how Japan's military can be organized this many years after WWII.

Well, we don't, them not having a military that can strike outside it's boarder is something in their constitution. Its hard to change, but they can change is, same as us. They have complete control over it these days.

Oh well that's good.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, you don't see the problem of a society that refuse to acknowledge the crime of their past? And keep in mind that I am not talking about being responsible for, I am talking of acknowledging.

I don't see a problem with a bunch of really stinking old people denying their past. In 15 years or so they'll be dead and it will be irrelevant.

[redacted]

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'd fully support Japan being able to have a true military,

I wouldn't, not without the right for China and Korea to carry out retributive strikes on Japan in retaliation for World War 2.

It can stop when the Japanese suffer casualties equal to what they inflicted on Asian, inflated for global population growth since the 1940s.

Yes, bomb innocent people because of a war that happened 70 years ago, that's smart. I guess you also want 20M or so Germans killed after their re-armament?

 KommissarKiln wrote:
You honestly believe that most/a significant proportion of Japanese citizens deny that atrocities were committed during WW2? Really? You're so certain Japan is secretly planning more war crimes that it's like you've gone there recently and questioned passersby whether they believe Nanjing is some government conspiracy and whether they sympathize with aggressive imperialist ideals.

Have you ever actually been there? Visited any of the many WW2 museums or memorials? I got a completely different vibe when I did. The fact of the matter is Japan isn't planning on invading Asia and half the Pacific again; it's simply not sitting idly while North Korea plans who-knows-what with all of these recent weapon tests. If there's any one nation to worry about planning invasions and war atrocities, it's North Korea.

It matters now what you or he believe. It only matters what Asians in Asia believe.

No, all that matters in this instance is what the Japanese people want. If they want a military, they can get one. I mean unless you want to attack Japan, and get into an unwinnable war with the US.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'd fully support Japan being able to have a true military,

I wouldn't, not without the right for China and Korea to carry out retributive strikes on Japan in retaliation for World War 2.

It can stop when the Japanese suffer casualties equal to what they inflicted on Asian, inflated for global population growth since the 1940s.

Ah, fighting nearly century-old genocide with a brand new genocide? BRILLIANT plan. Best idea I've heard all day.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
You honestly believe that most/a significant proportion of Japanese citizens deny that atrocities were committed during WW2? Really? You're so certain Japan is secretly planning more war crimes that it's like you've gone there recently and questioned passersby whether they believe Nanjing is some government conspiracy and whether they sympathize with aggressive imperialist ideals.

Have you ever actually been there? Visited any of the many WW2 museums or memorials? I got a completely different vibe when I did. The fact of the matter is Japan isn't planning on invading Asia and half the Pacific again; it's simply not sitting idly while North Korea plans who-knows-what with all of these recent weapon tests. If there's any one nation to worry about planning invasions and war atrocities, it's North Korea.

It matters now what you or he believe. It only matters what Asians in Asia believe.

That's what I was referring to. I've been to Japan, and it's not too hard to get a very good sense of the overall temperament of the population. The Japanese are for the most part polite and tend to keep to themselves. It's highly unusual for strangers to strike up a conversation on a subway. Outside of business and trade, the same seems to hold for international affairs. The fact they actually want to be prepared in case N. Korea tries something is unprecedented and is a sign that they are no longer idly ignoring a potential threat. With the exception maybe a handful of old geezers stuck in the past, there aren't any Japanese trying to revive their imperialist doctrines. All of this fearmongering about "Nanjing 2.0" is utterly asinine.