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Howard A Treesong wrote:[They say 'the customer is always right'.

I work in insurance - I can confirm that the customer is almost always wrong

They aren't of course, and some are bloody awful. But you have to treat them as though they are to an extent, not hit them over the head and drag them out across the floor.

This story goes to show that being proven technically in the right once you've clobbered a customer doesn't get much sympathy from the public, or remedy spectacularly bad PR.

Pretty much this; United may have dodged the legality bullet on this one, but they've taken a direct hit in the PR department. I'd be surprised if even offering competitive prices will keep their business afloat. Because let's not forget, United Breaks Guitars

Frazzled wrote:They were not technically in the right in any manner shape or form.

Technically yes, but they did nothing illegal as far as I can tell. Doesn't make it right, but it's grey enough to possibly invalidate any future lawsuit.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But you have to treat them as though they are to an extent, not hit them over the head and drag them out across the floor.

United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions. This is the most annoying part about this story, people need to stop blaming the airline for the guy getting hurt. United had nothing to do with it, blame the police if you need to blame someone.

 Peregrine wrote:
United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions.

Well, it seems the airport cop might not have had any right to even get involved so that would make his part of the "deck a man and drag him out" operation illegal. As icing on the cake this makes it less likely the city will allow these airport cops to carry guns, something the cops have been asking for.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/viral-video-kills-chance-aviation-security-officers-will-be-armed/

"Zalewski said the aviation officer who is now on a leave of absence had no business getting involved in the incident, let alone boarding the flight from Chicago to Louisville.

It should have been handled by United, O’Hare’s flagship carrier, in the boarding area, before passengers ever boarded the flight, the alderman said. And if the airline needed backup to handle a recalcitrant or unruly passenger, that should have been provided by Chicago Police officers, who were just minutes away when the viral video was taken, Zalewski said."

 whembly wrote:
Unfortunately, ignorance of the law/regulations is NOT a defense.

Unless you are a cop.

Spetulhu wrote:
Well, it seems the airport cop might not have had any right to even get involved so that would make his part of the "deck a man and drag him out" operation illegal.

Illegal on a technicality of jurisdiction, perhaps. Even if United called the wrong police to assist in removing the passenger it doesn't really make any difference in the final result. The police issued an order that is not obviously unreasonable*, so the only option was to obey the order and dispute it later in court. If United had called in the correct police the situation would have been the same: obey and dispute it in court, or refuse and be forced to comply by whatever means the police consider to be necessary. He still would have been removed from the plane, and probably would have been hurt in the process if he had continued to resist.

*For example, if the police had ordered him to murder another passenger of course it would have been justifiable to refuse.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But you have to treat them as though they are to an extent, not hit them over the head and drag them out across the floor.

United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions. This is the most annoying part about this story, people need to stop blaming the airline for the guy getting hurt. United had nothing to do with it, blame the police if you need to blame someone.

The airline definitely has quite a bit of blame here though. If they hadn't overbooked the flight in the first place (which, I know basically all airlines overbook), if they had resolved the overbooking issue at the gate prior to people getting on (ya know, like basically every other airline does), this PR issue wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Yes, the cops are the one who actually beat the dude, but it was the airline who cause the whole scene in the first place.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But you have to treat them as though they are to an extent, not hit them over the head and drag them out across the floor.

United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions. This is the most annoying part about this story, people need to stop blaming the airline for the guy getting hurt. United had nothing to do with it, blame the police if you need to blame someone.

It's United's plane. Their captain is in charge and operates according to United's instructions and operating procedures.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's United's plane. Their captain is in charge and operates according to United's instructions and operating procedures.

And United called the police and said "this guy is trespassing on our aircraft and potentially committing the federal crime of interfering with the crew by refusing to obey instructions, please remove him". That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. After that point he was dealing with the police, not United, and it was his refusal to comply with the police that got him removed by force. Had he done the smart thing and obeyed the police there wouldn't have been any problems.

 Peregrine wrote:
United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions. This is the most annoying part about this story, people need to stop blaming the airline for the guy getting hurt. United had nothing to do with it, blame the police if you need to blame someone.

United created the situation (though incompetence) where the cop (authorized or not) had to remove the customer. A huge amount of blame lays with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Illegal on a technicality of jurisdiction, perhaps. Even if United called the wrong police to assist in removing the passenger it doesn't really make any difference in the final result.

It may have been handled a lot better if the guy dealt with by real cops with reasonable training and authority, rather than an airport cop.

kronk 723058 wrote:

As someone that has flown on 38 trips in each of 2014 and 2016, and 42 in 2017, I WISH that was the case here. Despite the Euro-Thong swimming suits I've seen you hairy mother fethers wear to beaches over here (Jesus, does he have a squirrel in his suit?), ya'll sometimes have good ideas! I haven't been "bumped" from a flight, but I've had a number of delays on the Chicago-Houston and Chicago-Pittsburgh trips, waiting for them to sort that gak out. It rarely ends with happy customers, and no, I won't be happy if you make me miss my meeting in Pittsburgh, even if you give me a $400 voucher. KMA!

Sorry to hear it. Looks like it's mostly US airlines that pull this crap, then. Another strike against unbridled capitalism, I guess

So a security guard at O'Hare was the one to do that to the guy?

Thats what airport/mall/whatever cops are.

Bloody idiot. Since he works for the airport, it could be the airport getting sued rather than United, he was the one to cause physical damages.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Sorry to hear it. Looks like it's mostly US airlines that pull this crap, then. Another strike against unbridled capitalism, I guess

Hardly. Remember that if you take away overbooking you're going to pay for it with higher ticket prices, and that getting bumped involuntarily is very rare (much less than 1% of passengers). How much extra per ticket are you willing to pay to have a guaranteed seat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
United created the situation (though incompetence) where the cop (authorized or not) had to remove the customer. A huge amount of blame lays with them.

There really isn't any incompetence here. They needed to move their employees to avoid much worse delays/cancellations, and the contract that every passenger agrees to states that the airline has the right to bump them to a later flight. And once he refused the order to leave he could (and needed to be) booted without a refund or replacement ticket. The only reason he had to be removed by the police was that he refused a direct order from the crew to leave the plane willingly, and then refused to comply with a police order to leave willingly. 100% of the responsibility here lies with the idiot who thought he was too important to follow the rules.

And no, the argument about "why didn't they deal with this sooner" isn't really convincing. Even assuming they knew about the need to bump passengers to make room for their employees before boarding started, how long are they supposed to delay the flight while they sort it out before boarding? The obvious answer here is to get as many passengers on as possible while working to resolve the situation. The minor inconvenience of being told that you're getting bumped after you're in your seat instead of while you're sitting at the gate is barely worth noting. Bumped is bumped, regardless of which chair you're sitting in when it happens.

It may have been handled a lot better if the guy dealt with by real cops with reasonable training and authority, rather than an airport cop.

Possibly, but not likely. If the guy was stupid enough to refuse to comply with one set of cops then what reason is there to believe that he would comply with a different set? The end result is likely still the same, he continues to refuse to comply and gets dragged off by force. In fact, "real" cops with more authority might be more likely to hurt a non-compliant person, since they're used to dealing with violent criminals (instead of misbehaving passengers) and know that their use of force is unlikely to be punished.

Bran Dawri wrote:

kronk 723058 wrote:

As someone that has flown on 38 trips in each of 2014 and 2016, and 42 in 2017, I WISH that was the case here. Despite the Euro-Thong swimming suits I've seen you hairy mother fethers wear to beaches over here (Jesus, does he have a squirrel in his suit?), ya'll sometimes have good ideas! I haven't been "bumped" from a flight, but I've had a number of delays on the Chicago-Houston and Chicago-Pittsburgh trips, waiting for them to sort that gak out. It rarely ends with happy customers, and no, I won't be happy if you make me miss my meeting in Pittsburgh, even if you give me a $400 voucher. KMA!

Sorry to hear it. Looks like it's mostly US airlines that pull this crap, then. Another strike against unbridled capitalism, I guess

Not even close to 'unbridled capitalism'.

It's next to impossible for foreign carriers to compete domestically due to protectionism reg/laws..

 Peregrine wrote:
United didn't hit him or drag him out of the plane, the police did after he refused to comply with their (legally issued) instructions. This is the most annoying part about this story, people need to stop blaming the airline for the guy getting hurt. United had nothing to do with it, blame the police if you need to blame someone.

True, but United did call the police on the plane; they may not have been responsible at all for the officer's actions, but was calling them aboard to remove a passenger who didn't want to volunteer to get off the plane necessary when they could have convinced him with a simple rebooking of his flight on the same day, with a gesture of goodwill for their cock up thrown on top?

The responsibility for dragging that guy off the plane was with the officers, yes, but people will always and only remember who called them on the account of their own mistake.

They involved the police in what was a contract dispute.

Wouldn't a first come first serve policy work best in these cases? Like the last 4 to check in aren't even allowed to board the plane? The are compensated/provided new transport at the gate? Not asked to leave once they get on the plane?

 Peregrine wrote:

There really isn't any incompetence here. They needed to move their employees to avoid much worse delays/cancellations,

That is, right there, the very definition of incompetence. If a company cannot handle personnel issues properly BEFORE this sort of thing crops up then they sort of deserve the sort of PR that United is getting.

Also, lets say for example that an airline is trying to resolve an overbooked flight situation. BEFORE people get on the plane, you take a look at the purchase date/location of the ticket. If our punching bag doctor bought his ticket online a week ago, and another passenger bought his/hers at the ticketing counter 2 hours ago, guess who should get booted? There's really no need to "randomly" select people, just select the people who bought a ticket after all of the seats were "sold out"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

There really isn't any incompetence here. They needed to move their employees to avoid much worse delays/cancellations,

That is, right there, the very definition of incompetence. If a company cannot handle personnel issues properly BEFORE this sort of thing crops up then they sort of deserve the sort of PR that United is getting.

Also, lets say for example that an airline is trying to resolve an overbooked flight situation. BEFORE people get on the plane, you take a look at the purchase date/location of the ticket. If our punching bag doctor bought his ticket online a week ago, and another passenger bought his/hers at the ticketing counter 2 hours ago, guess who should get booted? There's really no need to "randomly" select people, just select the people who bought a ticket after all of the seats were "sold out"

This. Or book your flight crew onto a different plane even if that involves buying them a ticket on a competitor. Or make it standard practice to always leave X number of seats unfilled for emergency crew transport.

There is no legitimate excuse for the practice of overbooking your flight. If your flight isn't financially viable with a couple of empty seats then you have serious issues with your business plan.

All regular passenger airlines overbook. It has been standard practice for decades, because so often passengers don't turn up.

It's never a major problem -- I've been overbooked a couple of times -- providing the airline handles the situation the right way. The right way is not to beat a middle-aged medical doctor unconscious, knock out two of his teeth, and drag him out like a dead pig. On video.

It simply isn't acceptable to treat a paying passenger like that.

United fethed up bigtime. Everyone who keeps defending them on the grounds of blah-di-blah police-resisting-arrest-federal-safe-operation-of-an-aircraft is wrong.

I mean feth, the fething airport police admitted they fethed it up by suspending the policeman who committed the assault.

As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

He wasn't beaten unconscious, that is pure hyperbole.

And it is a fairly common practice to suspend someone while they are being investigated, it doesn't make any sense to treat that as an admission of wrongdoing.

 Frazzled wrote:
As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

The scorpion things is just the hilarious cherry on top. Surprised its been made to be such a big deal that even their shares dropped. I know share prices are always based on feelings, but people still need to fly regardless...

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

The scorpion things is just the hilarious cherry on top. Surprised its been made to be such a big deal that even their shares dropped. I know share prices are always based on feelings, but people still need to fly regardless...

Seeing as the couple were coming back from Mexico, I would bet the scorpion was a tag-a-long in their own carry-on bags.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

The scorpion things is just the hilarious cherry on top. Surprised its been made to be such a big deal that even their shares dropped. I know share prices are always based on feelings, but people still need to fly regardless...

According to the article, the man was taken to the hospital (and told he was fine), probably something he will have to pay a lot for. His compensation? Flying credit.

Oh, United.

 CptJake wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

The scorpion things is just the hilarious cherry on top. Surprised its been made to be such a big deal that even their shares dropped. I know share prices are always based on feelings, but people still need to fly regardless...

Seeing as the couple were coming back from Mexico, I would bet the scorpion was a tag-a-long in their own carry-on bags.

Yeah, but just the timing of a scorpion biting someone after people are already 'worried' about the crew treating them badly is just so silly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
As part of its new focus on customer relations, United is trying out new avenues to deliver quality customer service:
http://kxan.com/2017/04/14/scorpion-falls-from-overhead-bin-stings-man-on-united-flight-out-of-houston/

The scorpion things is just the hilarious cherry on top. Surprised its been made to be such a big deal that even their shares dropped. I know share prices are always based on feelings, but people still need to fly regardless...

According to the article, the man was taken to the hospital (and told he was fine), probably something he will have to pay a lot for. His compensation? Flying credit.

Oh, United.

Didn't he go to hospital in Canada though, destination of the flight was Calgary iirc.