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Hey guys!
I'm finally back to 40k, after a 2 year (and still ongoing) Horus Heresy project. I'm really into the gathering storm's fluff, and wanted an army that can be part of it. Since I already have two SM and a CSM army (along with Inquisition) I wanted to do something different. I was looking at my
collection of White Dwarf magazines, and stumbled across the one where the Eldar start collecting set was released. Since Eldar where my first Warhammer "army" (15 guys ) I thought I'd do them. And no Ynari/Dark Eldar shenanigans. This will be a pure craftworld force.

So this is where you guys come in. I don't own the Eldar codex, and don't want to purchase it until I'm ready to start the army. So you need to tell me what units I'm planning to buy are good and which ones I shouldn't buy AT ALL (I'm more used to HH, where almost everything can be competitive).

What I own:
12 Guardian Defenders with Heavy Weapons platform
Warlock on foot.

What I plan to get:
(Two Start Collecting sets and a Wraith Host)
2 Farseer/Warlock Skyrunners
6 Windriders
2 Fire Prisms/Night Spinners
15 Wraith Guard/Blades
1 Wraith Lord
1 Wraith Knight
1 Spiritseer
+3 Windriders
+1 Viper

My plan is to run these as a Windrider Host and a Wraith Host. I mostly did this because I like Wraith Guard and jet bikes, and really want to paint them blue (I'll be doing a craftworld Mymeara army).

So what should I do? Are the formations I've chosen good, or should I do something else?

Please help!

Ember

The Eldar book has poor internal balance; it's quite easy to accidentally build an army that's absurdly powerful and will get people to refuse to play against you, and it's quite easy to build an army that's accidentally useless.

That selection of models/formations specifically is pushing towards the first category; the only thing that's even remotely worth worrying about from a power standpoint is that Wraithguard wandering about on foot with 12" range weapons are going to die long before they get to do anything; you usually see one or two units in Wave Serpents in a CAD rather than a full-on Wraith Host since they get really expensive really fast.

That said if you magnetize the Wraithguard arms and the Jetbike guns so you can field them as Wraithblades/with shuriken catapults you should be able to play a toned-down list for more casual games. So do that, just don't glue in the scatter lasers.

The good thing about the Craftworlds codex right now is that alot of stuff is very good, so even if you do end up with some weaker choices, the rest of the army compensates.

You'll want to try and fit some Wave Serpents into the list, and probably run Wraithguard rather than Wraithblades. Depending on what point total you're going for, this might be tricky. 2000 should be fine, but anything less and you'll have to run without. Battle Focus (from the Wraith Host formation bonus) and Matchless Agility (from the Warhost detachment bonus) are a scary combination which basically double the move of the Wraithguard/blades/lord, so that will make up for it.

You'll also be able to add in the Nightspinners / Fireprisms using Auxillary slots, so you won't be Unbound. The only guys left on the shelf are the foot-slogging Guardians and Warlock.

So what's "bad"?
Wraithlords are (on their own) too slow, as they want to be in combat. The movement bonuses from the formations/detachments up's their game quite a bit.
Vypers are fragile, and slower than jetbikes (due to thrust moves / flat out), and you can't quite give them the weapon combinations you'd like (one is stuck being shuriken).
Warlock Council - dangerous if you invest in more of them, but a single one is stuck without being able to join any units and will likely get picked on.
Fire Prisms - Suffer from "single shot" syndrome when using the strongest profile, but I like them for their versatility.
Wraithblades are a problem in terms of they don't get an Assault Vehicle transport without alot of ally work. As with the 'lord there are mitigations.

So what's good?
Wraithknights are obviously good. They're undercosted, fast and smashy.
Jetbikes with heavy weapons (normally Scatter Lasers for the extra shot and extra range) are very good, and worth it even though they won't benefit from the Windrider formation's bonus.
Farseers are solid psykers (ML3 for their pricepoint, Ghosthelm etc.), mostly focusing on force-multipliers (i.e. buffs / blessings) but can also be used offensively.
Wraithguard in a transport.

So what's "ok"?
Nightspinners trade the versatility of the FP for the sheer murder of a large barrage blast that wounds almost anything on a 2+, with pseudo-rending.
Spiritseers - solid buffs (2+ save Wraithguard? Yum) but can't take a bike, so generally stuck in a transport with some Wraithguard.
Wraithguard without a transport.

You can add Rangers, Banshees and maybe Scorpions to the "bad" things in the codex.

Warp Spiders are definitely "good", Fire Dragons are OK.

Farseers aren't any good outside of 10-man Jetbikes, they really are more like OK to good depending on build.

As long as people you play against will let you use formations....
The jetbike warhost is good, and fast. In objective-claiming games, they're winners.
Wraiths are slow, and the Lord isn't great. But, if you get the Seer and the formation, the Guard and Knight will make up for the Lord's failings.

The Warlock in the formation cannot be assigned to the jetbike squads IIRC, so you want a squad of 3 or so for that.
Depending how you kit out the Windriders, you'll want to look at your AV, AI and AA levels add up. I keep 2 of the Windrider squads bare, to claim objectives. Kit the other with Scatter Lasers, or ShuriCan if you want. The formation benefit might work with that.

I like the Nightspinner, but it is not as good as it once was. A Blast will not kill everyone it hits, but firing 2 at the same place should mess the target up.

To expand the army, look at the DA or Aspect shrines. 3x units can make a lot of difference, especially Warp Spiders.

 Quanar wrote:
...Spiritseers - solid buffs (2+ save Wraithguard? Yum) but can't take a bike, so generally stuck in a transport with some Wraithguard...

Addendum: Someone noticed this was possible and gave Spiritseers Fate instead of Battle so it isn't. You can't actually get Protect on a Wraithguard unit.

You can get Fortune for rerollable 3+ (which is slightly better most of the time), but a Spiritseer is still a small Farseer rather than a large Warlock and has the Farseer's distribution of disciplines.

If you really want to take Wraithguard on foot one thing you could do is find a Shadowseer (allied Harlequins) for Veil of Tears to prevent the enemy from shooting them from outside 24" (outside 14", on average rolls). They're still slow, but they won't explode as readily and people will complain less about you having Destroyer weapons if you're taking enough Harlequins to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skinnereal wrote:
...The Warlock in the formation cannot be assigned to the jetbike squads IIRC, so you want a squad of 3 or so for that...

The Seer Council is a terrible unit and the Warlock is just a tax. You've got to take him, but taking more models in his unit just makes him more of a tax instead of making him in any way useful.

(Warlocks really need two Attacks and this whole 1-WC-per-model thing needs to go from the Seer Council so they can actually be priced fairly; as-is you're getting fewer rolls for powers, more eggs in one basket, fewer Conceal casts, and fewer powers spread out around your army for the same price by taking a Seer Council instead of sticking Warlocks into your units.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
...Farseers aren't any good outside of 10-man Jetbikes, they really are more like OK to good depending on build.

Naked Farseers are fabulous. 115pts (on a jetbike) for ML3 is one of the most points-efficient sources of ML and powers in existence, plus they're hilariously cheap compulsory HQs that help everything.

I will concede that their powers could be better, but they may be the best thing to have in a compulsory HQ slot that isn't a Herald of Tzeentch.

Ok, so could anyone suggest a 2000-2500p list for me?

Also what is the difference between Wave Serpents and Falcons? And what's this with not being able to put my Warlock into units? Isn't it an IC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And can I use an individual unit as an auxiliary choice?

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
...Also what is the difference between Wave Serpents and Falcons? And what's this with not being able to put my Warlock into units? Isn't it an IC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And can I use an individual unit as an auxiliary choice?

We're here to give recommendations on what to use, not to read the book to you. These are the sort of questions better-answered by reading the book.

(Wave Serpents and Falcons are different unit entries. The Warlock in the Windrider Host is a Seer Council squad, he's allowed a unit size of 1 but he isn't a Character or an Independent Character. You can use individual units as Auxiliary choices if the specific meta-detachment has an Auxiliary choice listed allowing it.)

Only units i dont like in the codex are the Falcon tank because I cant even recall the last time I fielded one, and Banshees which I just don't bother with either. Eldar Rangers are also probably not a very great option as they are very expensive for what you get. I still might take them because cutting off enemy scout moves is still an important consideration in list building and if you were strapped for points and couldnt afford Scorpions for that role, Rangers would be next in line I suppose... ( I am assuming pure Eldar for the purpose of this discussion)

I think everyone knows Jetbikes are for the win. Warp Spiders are excellent. Wraith Knights excellent. A Webway Portal Archon with Wraithguard also awesome.

Isn't the add to his simply add 1 Triumvirate box use Ynarri and soul blaze to glory?

Youn wrote:
Isn't the add to his simply add 1 Triumvirate box use Ynarri and soul blaze to glory?

Soul Blaze is excellent. Wonky as hell but good. you have to essentially spread out to avoid its worst manifestations and have reasonably good range while doing it... and then be very careful in shot selection. In other words, its really freaking good if it forces enemies to know that and act on so many things to defeat its advantages. I honestly haven't got a clue why Eldar needed a power boost. combining the forces i understood. Coming up with something cool for it i understood. Not super sure what the concept behind giving them yet more turns of shooting or making it simple for them to take objectives at games end without giving anything up was.

Also, if there three units together...shoot the one in the middle. breaks the "chain" of souldbursts should you actually kill it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Addendum: Someone noticed this was possible and gave Spiritseers Fate instead of Battle so it isn't. You can't actually get Protect on a Wraithguard unit.

It says Daemonology (Sanctic), Runes of Battle and Telepathy in my physical Codex, not aware of any change via Errata? (Although I did just have a big panic that I'd been playing Spiritseers wrong this entire edition, thanks! )

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Also what is the difference between Wave Serpents and Falcons?
And can I use an individual unit as an auxiliary choice?

A Wave Serpent is a transport with guns, whilst a Falcon is guns with some transport. A WS can carry 12 models and a Falcon 6, but due to Wraithguard being Bulky they take up two spaces each, so you can't fit a full unit into a Falcon.
If you're using the Warhost, then there are 12 sorts of Auxillary choice available. Some are single models / units (Prisms and Spinners), whilst some are Formations (Aspect Host). Alot of the time it can be difficult or impossible to fit individual units into such super-detachments, but luckily the option is there for some things. If you're not using the Warhost then you can just throw in whatever units you like and call it a day.

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Ok, so could anyone suggest a 2000-2500p list for me?

The Windrider Host with 9 scatter lasers plus the Wraithhost with 3 Serpents and 1 unit with D-Scythes plus a single Nightspinner plus some upgrades sprinkled about is a 2000pts list. Not sure what to suggest for the 2500 as you'll either be adding models to units or adding in another aux.

 Quanar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Addendum: Someone noticed this was possible and gave Spiritseers Fate instead of Battle so it isn't. You can't actually get Protect on a Wraithguard unit.

It says Daemonology (Sanctic), Runes of Battle and Telepathy in my physical Codex, not aware of any change via Errata? (Although I did just have a big panic that I'd been playing Spiritseers wrong this entire edition, thanks! )...

...Or it was a digital-Codex typo that I've been playing wrong this entire edition. My physical Codex says Sanctic, Battle, and Telepathy, my digital Codex has the Farseer's line (Sanctic, Fate, Divination, Telepathy) copy-pasted over. And I tend to believe the physical book over the digital book, the digital books love their copy-paste bugs.

I never buy digital. Its not worth the headache

Ok, I'm off to buy the digital codex

In the mean time, would this kind of set up be good?
No points because no codex.

Windrider Host:
Farseer Skyrunner:
Singing spear
Runes of Fate

Warlock Skyrunner:
Singing spear
Runes of Battle

Windriders:
2 Shuricanons
1 Scatterlaser

Windriders:
2 Shuricanons
1 Scatterlaser

Windriders:
3 Scatterlasers

Vyper:
EML


Wraith Host
Spiritseer:
Runes of Battle

Wraith Lord:
2 Scatterlasers
Glaive thingy

Wraith Guard:
Wraith Blasters
Wave Serpent

Wraith Guard:
D-Scythes

Wraithblades:
Wave Serpent

Wraithknight:
2 Starcannons
Heavy Wraith Cannons



Fire Prism

Night Spinner



That seem ok? I used 1d4chan (I know, not the best).

Also is it better to have wraithblades or Wraith Guard in a wave Serpent? Or both?

Wraithguard. Wave Serpents aren't assault vehicles, which means your Wraithblades will be sitting out in the open for a turn, and get shot to death before they can charge. Wraithguard can disembark, annihilate their target, and then die, doing at least some damage.

Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

What are Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Autarchs?
"No bad units" is complete nonsense.

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

What are Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Autarchs?

Not as good as the rest of the book, AKA the closest thing to balance the Eldar have. The only reason they feel weak is because everything else is just so overpowered.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

What are Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Autarchs?

Not as good as the rest of the book, AKA the closest thing to balance the Eldar have. The only reason they feel weak is because everything else is just so overpowered.

No. If Rangers were a unit in a different army, they still never would be taken. Neither would Storm Guardians. Banshees are garbage with S3 and no delivery system. Fire Prisms are ruined by One Shot Syndrome, Night Spinners are so weak that I've never seen one on the table even in YouTube battle reports.
Eldar have terrible internal balance. Many of their units are awful, a minority are incredibly good, and the rest are average to good. The level of their strongest units seems to unfairly bias people's opinions towards all Eldar units, which is nonsense.

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

What are Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Autarchs?

Not as good as the rest of the book, AKA the closest thing to balance the Eldar have. The only reason they feel weak is because everything else is just so overpowered.

No. If Rangers were a unit in a different army, they still never would be taken. Neither would Storm Guardians. Banshees are garbage with S3 and no delivery system. Fire Prisms are ruined by One Shot Syndrome, Night Spinners are so weak that I've never seen one on the table even in YouTube battle reports.
Eldar have terrible internal balance. Many of their units are awful, a minority are incredibly good, and the rest are average to good. The level of their strongest units seems to unfairly bias people's opinions towards all Eldar units, which is nonsense.

Ironic isnt it that many armies would give their special characters to have just one of these "bad units"

Other armies being garbage does not make Eldar broken beyond belief, as many seem to think. Other armies having even more unforgivably bad units doesn't make Eldar unforgivably bad units strong.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Literally just open your army book at random a few times, toss a dart at it, and purchase whatever it lands on.

Eldar are stupidly powerful and quite literally have no bad units.

What are Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Autarchs?

Not as good as the rest of the book, AKA the closest thing to balance the Eldar have. The only reason they feel weak is because everything else is just so overpowered.

No. If Rangers were a unit in a different army, they still never would be taken. Neither would Storm Guardians. Banshees are garbage with S3 and no delivery system. Fire Prisms are ruined by One Shot Syndrome, Night Spinners are so weak that I've never seen one on the table even in YouTube battle reports.
Eldar have terrible internal balance. Many of their units are awful, a minority are incredibly good, and the rest are average to good. The level of their strongest units seems to unfairly bias people's opinions towards all Eldar units, which is nonsense.

Ironic isnt it that many armies would give their special characters to have just one of these "bad units"

Because combat units with S3 T3 5+ save and no delivery are sooo good.

Sisters of Silence. Ogryns (T5, but cost far more and get focused fired even more. Oh and when they make it they cant actually fight well), Bullgryns, Repentia,....
Want me to go on?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Sisters of Silence. Ogryns (T5, but cost far more and get focused fired even more. Oh and when they make it they cant actually fight well), Bullgryns, Repentia,....
Want me to go on?

I can't think of a single time I've seen people praise their combat ability.

Master of ordinance... running around all the threads, sour because his IG supposedly doesn't get any attention from GW.

Always bashing Eldar not realising that blobs of fearless conscripts are several times better than Banshees could ever be.

morgoth wrote:
Master of ordinance... running around all the threads, sour because his IG supposedly doesn't get any attention from GW.

Always bashing Eldar not realising that blobs of fearless conscripts are several times better than Banshees could ever be.

Good joke....
Wait.
You are serious?
Give me a break, Conscripts get shat on by Grots.

Then, please explain why blobs of fearless conscripts are taken in competitive lists?

Sisters Of Silence are a utility unit, if they're in combat you're either doomed or winning really, really hard.

 Verviedi wrote:
Then, please explain why blobs of fearless conscripts are taken in competitive lists?

"Blobs" are not made up of Fearless Conscripts.
They're made up of multiple Infantry Squads. Infantry Squads have the "Combined Squad" rule allowing you to blob them together.
When you see someone say they're bringing a "Blob", that's what it refers to.

Conscript Squads are 20 models base with 30 additionals. Conscripts can take no specials or anything like that, so when you see someone taking 50 Conscripts it is usually where they have a Ministorum Priest thrown in to serve as a tar pit/speed bump in CC.

Since the Priest's stuff only works in CC.