Good Guy CSM Stories?

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**Maximus Bitch**

What do you think of stories in which the CSM are portrayed as not evil, and actually have some redeeming qualities?

Would you like BL to produce more of those?

**NoiseMarine with Tinnitus**

Check the Night Lords trilogy by A-DB. A showcase for giving the most brutal regime and Eldar a fingers up irrespective of being scum of the highest order in their own right.

**spiralingcadaver**

Yeah, the NL series really tried to make a likable bunch of CSMs. The 2nd book is probably the best. Thought the 3rd had some terribly lazy writing at a few points.

In general, yeah, I think it's fine, not all of them need to be corrupted beyond reason, some are just resentful/vengeful/haters/warlords, etc.

**GodDamUser**

Blood Gorgons

They are Evil.. but not entirely Evil

**King Pariah**

Daemonworld I think is a good example of this.

And yeah, it would be interesting to see more of this but only to establish that no faction is as good or as evil as one may think.

**Lukash_**

Talon of Horus has a few very likeable Chaos characters, notably Lheorvine Ukris a.k.a. the snarkiest man in the Eye of Terror.

**Maximus Bitch**

Lukash_ wrote:
Talon of Horus has a few very likeable Chaos characters, notably Lheorvine Ukris a.k.a. the snarkiest man in the Eye of Terror.

Some good quotes in there by ADB. Must have watched a lot of Hollywood cliches.

Trying to make Abaddon look cool, but that's impossible.

**CadianGateTroll**

GodDamUser wrote:
Blood Gorgons

They are Evil.. but not entirely Evil

I thought it interesting how the natives revered the protagonist as a diety. Then he used the villagers as meat shields.

**GodDamUser**

CadianGateTroll wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Blood Gorgons

They are Evil.. but not entirely Evil

I thought it interesting how the natives revered the protagonist as a diety. Then he used the villagers as meat shields.

that is true.. I have to read that book again.. been a good while.

**ChazSexington**

Night Lords trilogy, as mentioned.

It's a rare occasion when CSMs don't die in droves, either in the fluff or on the tabletop.

**Fentlegen**

Argel Tal has a very interesting portrayal in The First Heretic and Betrayer, same with Kharn. They become almost human in how the conflicts in their souls are presented. Its much more interesting than being purely evil and sadistic because you worship dark gods.

**Maximus Bitch**

ChazSexington wrote:
Night Lords trilogy, as mentioned.

It's a rare occasion when CSMs don't die in droves, either in the fluff or on the tabletop.

They don't even have the numbers to die too. Only a handful of OGs from the HH and some defectors from the Imperium.

**ChazSexington**

Maximus Bitch wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Night Lords trilogy, as mentioned.

It's a rare occasion when CSMs don't die in droves, either in the fluff or on the tabletop.

They don't even have the numbers to die too. Only a handful of OGs from the HH and some defectors from the Imperium.

Yep. I like the gritty style of writing much more than "~~Aníbal Milhais~~ Brother-Captain Maximus Ultramarinus grabbed ~~the Lewis gun~~ heavy bolter like it was ~~1916~~ M31 and gunned down the ~~Huns~~ Chaos Space Marines in droves, the bolter ~~porning~~ droning on as he saved the day [again]."

**Rippy**

The Soul Hunter series is some of the most enjoyable books I have ever read, 40k or not.

I wouldn't say they portray them with any redeeming qualities after all. They spend half their time enslaving and/or flaying humans.

**Maximus Bitch**

Rippy wrote:
The Soul Hunter series is some of the most enjoyable books I have ever read, 40k or not.

I wouldn't say they portray them with any redeeming qualities after all. They spend half their time enslaving and/or flaying humans.

ADB is great. Followed by Dan Abnett, sometimes cheesy, and then the ultra cheesy McNeil

**Ashiraya**

Agreed. The NL trilogy is a must read.

**mrhappyface**

Depends, what is your definition of evil? Are CSM really evil? Evil is having the option to do something good and choosing to do something bad, do the corrupted minds of CSM have a choice or are they now just pawns of beings far more powerful than them? And what of the Gods? Hate, decay, excess, change, etc. is all they know and cannot choose to do anything else.

Then comes the question of whether our human definition of evil applies to those within the warp, in the words of the Joker "They are only as good as the world allows them to be", compare Angron and Guilliman: Guilliman is seen as more honourable and brave than Angron yet Guilliman did not start his life out upon a world of slave traiders who starved and beat him. Does this mean that Angrons naturally violent and untrustworthy behaviour makes him evil? Perhaps from Roboute's perspective yes, but from Angrons no.

(I feel I have waffled on a bit here)

**Dew**

what about a CSM Legion that just goes rogue and become contract mercs or guns for hire type?
Not exactly a bloodthirsty kill everyone and everything type and no longer loyal to the Emperors will?

**Maximus Bitch**

mrhappyface wrote:
Depends, what is your definition of evil? Are CSM really evil? Evil is having the option to do something good and choosing to do something bad, do the corrupted minds of CSM have a choice or are they now just pawns of beings far more powerful than them? And what of the Gods? Hate, decay, excess, change, etc. is all they know and cannot choose to do anything else.

Then comes the question of whether our human definition of evil applies to those within the warp, in the words of the Joker "They are only as good as the world allows them to be", compare Angron and Guilliman: Guilliman is seen as more honourable and brave than Angron yet Guilliman did not start his life out upon a world of slave traiders who starved and beat him. Does this mean that Angrons naturally violent and untrustworthy behaviour makes him evil? Perhaps from Roboute's perspective yes, but from Angrons no.

(I feel I have waffled on a bit here)

Tell that to the rather narrow-minded writers at GW.

**Engine of War**

Spoilers For "Flesh and Iron" IG book

Spoiler:

**GodDamUser**

Engine of War wrote:
Spoilers For "Flesh and Iron" IG book

Spoiler:

There are Chaos marines on the planet but they are not called chaos (but they are marines for sure, giant 7/8 foot tall, bulky and scared and thensome) but they are not "evil" inherently (Although there is plenty of "evil" chaosy stuff like sacrificed animals and such). They more come along as trying to help the native peoples on the planet rebel against the Imperial forces on the planet who are being removed by a crazy Ecclesiarch who wants to earn a profit from the planet or something (its been a while since I read it) who has an equally crazy Sister of battle and her sisters under his command. If anything the Ecclesiarch could be the "evil" in the story or the antagonist once the protagonist finishes his mission on the planet, which is to wreck some siege guns preventing the giant mega ships from landing on the islands. The Chaos marines inject the natives who want to fight back with Demon Blood which mutates them and makes them stronger but in the end will kill them but they don't tell them that part. One of the chaos marines gets killed by a side character IG with a lasgun with shots to the face. After the mile + long aircraft carrier and the Ecclesiarch onboard and the sisters are killed the protagonist and his men are taken by the Chaos marines to be renegade troops. If they didn't they would be dead. So the Chaos Marines are not outright evil, but more opposed to the Imperium and trying to help natives fight back against it.

This is a 'prequel' to Blood Gorgon

There are 3 books in the series

1. Emperor Might - Follows an inquisitor

2. Flesh and Iron - Follows a Guardsman (considered to have been plagiarized from a book on US Troops in Afghanistan)

3. Blood Gorgon - Follows the Renegade Marines

But a theme with these is that who is really the 'Good Guys'

**Arbitrator**

Dew wrote:
what about a CSM Legion that just goes rogue and become contract mercs or guns for hire type?
Not exactly a bloodthirsty kill everyone and everything type and no longer loyal to the Emperors will?

Sounds like a lot of the Night Lords tbh.

**nareik**

Arbitrator wrote:
Dew wrote:
what about a CSM Legion that just goes rogue and become contract mercs or guns for hire type?
Not exactly a bloodthirsty kill everyone and everything type and no longer loyal to the Emperors will?

Sounds like a lot of the Night Lords tbh.

Is it just me or have Night Lords become less chaos in 40k compared to when they started to go rogue pre-HH?

With the Night Haunter they really seemed to live and practice the "skin you alive, wear you as a dress then murder all your mates" thing. Since then they seem to have become more about accumulating the material wealth as mercenaries than they are about the thrill of the hunt and mutilation of the weak (even if they still do dabble a bit). The atrocities seem to be a 'going to church at Christmas and Easter' rather than living the religion now. Lip service to their original identity.

**Arbitrator**

nareik wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
Dew wrote:
what about a CSM Legion that just goes rogue and become contract mercs or guns for hire type?
Not exactly a bloodthirsty kill everyone and everything type and no longer loyal to the Emperors will?

Sounds like a lot of the Night Lords tbh.
Is it just me or have Night Lords become less chaos in 40k compared to when they started to go rogue pre-HH?

With the Night Haunter they really seemed to live and practice the "skin you alive, wear you as a dress then murder all your mates" thing. Since then they seem to have become more about accumulating the material wealth as mercenaries than they are about the thrill of the hunt and mutilation of the weak (even if they still do dabble a bit). The atrocities seem to be a 'going to church at Christmas and Easter' rather than living the religion now. Lip service to their original identity.

Pretty much. The irony of the Night Lords is that they haven't really changed much from their pre-Heresy days, which also meant they never really had a reason to succumb to the influence of Chaos.

"Mercilessly slaughtering Imperial citizens? Whatever, for us that was Tuesday."

**Rippy**

I like how this thread went from "are there any nice CSM?", To people who don't understand Night Lords fluff talking about Night Lords.

**Arbitrator**

Rippy wrote:
I like how this thread went from "are there any nice CSM?", To people who don't understand Night Lords fluff talking about Night Lords.

Feel free to offer a correction then instead of vomiting up a useless passive aggressive response.

My point was, the Imperium had been wanting to reel the Night Lords in before the Heresy even started and after Curze went all explodey on Nostromo, they were pretty much renegades. It's just that Horus' temper tantrum coincided with the timing, so they started batting for the side that wasn't going to have them sanctioned for their actions. From there, they just went about the same work they'd always done for Big E, only against the Imperium instead. They didn't really need to fall into Chaos' clutches like the other Traitor Legions did because their culture was pretty much unchanged from how it had been prior to the Heresy, or at least after the less-than-desirable recruits had become the mainstay of their ranks.

For some reason or another, I've never known a Legion get peoples lore panties in a twist like the Night Lords do. "Oh they like Raptors!" people get screamed at by "NO THEY DON'T USE MORE RAPTORS!" usually followed by the "NO THEY HATE CHAOS COMPLETELY!" retorted with "BUT THERE'S DIFFERENT WARBANDS WHO THINK DIFFERENTLY!".

**Munga**

A lot of the renegades start off thinking they are doing the right thing. And sometimes they are. Renegade doesn't mean they worship chaos, either. As poorly written as some of the parts of the books are, the Soul Drinkers books are an example of a chaos touched renegade group who didn't even know they were going to chaos. Other groups simply buck the command system and are thus deemed renegade. Not doing what you're told and not having enough clout to warrant it is an easy way to fall from grace.

**nareik**

Rippy wrote:
I like how this thread went from "are there any nice CSM?", To people who don't understand Night Lords fluff talking about Night Lords.

Night Lord fluff is rich and varied. In the 2nd ed codex there is the story of a Night Lord warband with Khorne Berserkers that summoned a bunch of daemons of Khorne before one of the aspiring champions morphed into a Blood Thirster. A difference in perspective or source doesn't mean either opinion is wrong.

And you know what, Rippy? Arbitrator took my post a little different to how I intended it to be read. But I wasn't rude about it. Sometimes you just have to play the hand you are dealt instead of descending into no-name passive aggressive boo-hickey. It's part of being nice.

Would you like to elaborate on how you view the Night Lords, and if there are any 'good guy Night Lords'?

**EmberlordofFire8**

Well, If you count heresy-era traitors as CSM, then quite a lot are "good guys". Most of the traitors, discounting the EC and Word Bearers, are just doing it because they're loyal to their primarch. Afterwards they became "evil" because of their hate. Two big exceptions are the Iron Warriors, who are *mostly* just traitor marines and not chaos space marines, and the Thousand Sons, who are chaos marines but still see themselves as loyal.

**Dakka Wolf**

Magnus and his Sons - Good guys might be stretching things but their story is about as close as you get to "honest" revenge in the 40k universe.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Well, If you count heresy-era traitors as CSM, then quite a lot are "good guys". Most of the traitors, discounting the EC and Word Bearers, are just doing it because they're loyal to their primarch. Afterwards they became "evil" because of their hate. Two big exceptions are the Iron Warriors, who are *mostly* just traitor marines and not chaos space marines, and the Thousand Sons, who are chaos marines but still see themselves as loyal.

I don't think the Sons do see themselves as loyal to the IoM, they just don't see themselves as Oathbreakers. One of Magnus' desires is to see the IoM turn against the Space Wolves the way it did against his Legion.