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 DynamicCalories wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DynamicCalories wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Hmmm.

I was a bit miffed at the 'everything can hurt everything' take, but I imagine (as stats are no longer capped at 10) it will involve rolling a 6 followed by another result, similar to how BS 6+ works.

For the amount of complaining about how turgid the ruleset is (disagree, have played shadowrun and battletech), it seems having separate vehicle, MC damage tables and multiple wounds (don't know how many yet but probably lots) would actually slow things down, not speed them up...

Also lel: main dev aim was to cater for all 3 sorts of play, but no tournament rules, only 'guidelines'. Sigh.

5 books to cover every faction? How can that work?

Xenos to get the shaft...

5 books initially, battletome style codex books down the line, already confirmed.

I would hazard a guess at:
Space Marines (Spehsbois)
Terran Forces (IG, Skitarii)
Forces of Chaos (CSM/Daemons)
Uneasy Allies (Eldar, Dark Eldar*, Tau)
Enemies of the Imperium (Necron, Tyranids, Orks)

*This is the stickler of course, it's more likely they'll stick them in Enemies but they given the Gathering Storm they may concoct a narrative to fold them into this alliance.

Confirmed where and by whom?

Those 5 splits are my personal assumption, but they confirmed in the stream yesterday that codexes are not going to go away. Much like AoS the "Grand Alliance" books will launch first, then factions will get their own codexes with rules that flesh them out, such as unique Command Points abilities.

They confirmed Minimarines will be in the forces of imperium book, I would guess Forces of the imperium, Codex mortals of chaos,Codex demons of chaos, Codex Xenos and codex Gullimarines/Talons of the emperor. I would put money on it in fact.

That might be a better split than my assumptions!

I don't think it will mean Xenos are going to get "shafted". Every model will get rules, those rules could be available in one massive book or 20 tiny books. They're still the same rules, and the codexes will make factions more concrete.

The only reason they're splitting it is so that the price point is lower. 5 books for £15-25 will sell better than 1 book for £50-80. People will either buy the one book they need, or double, triple dip etc If you collect everything you lose out, sure, but I think that is going to be the minority of players.

As someone pointed out in another thread, GW put out a staggering amount of AoS content, to buy it all would probably cost you a fortune. The trick is... you don't need to. I have two books: The GHB and the Kharadron Overlord Battletome. Prior to that I played my Mortal/Daemon Nurgle Mix with freely available warscrolls and had a fine old time. Would have needed the Chaos Alliance book to make it truly competitive, but that option was there for like £20. I would have still only have spent £35 to get there. Modular is largely better (unless you just have to have all the books in which case my the emperor bless your wallet)

 Graphite wrote:
Thing is, if a vehicle has a lot of wounds it could make perfect sense for a Lasgun to get the killshot on an Landraider, assuming that the lasgun isn't the only thing that's shot the Landy during the game. Models don't change over the course of the game, but by the end your pristine Doom Tank will now have more holes than a swiss cheese and possibly be on fire due to the number of Lascannon, Krak missile and multi-melta shots inflicted on it. On the last turn of the game, some lucky conscript puts a lasgun round through one of the gaping gaps in the armour, strikes the main Heavy Bolter ammo hopper, and blows up the whole tank.

Early in the game - well, those few wounds that the lasguns plink off represent how un-nerved the crew are at coming under immense weight of small arms fire.

And this can now easily be represented with the new rules, by say making a Land Raider lower Toughness and/or Save as it takes damage.

Nothing has been spoiled about format for the books yet, has it?

I really hope it's day 1 availability for the ePubs. Since I got my new tablet I've been loving those. A paper book is cool and all, but sometimes it's awesome to zoom in on a picture in high resolution. The Tzeench AoS book is probably my favorite army book GW has ever made and while I don't expect the update books to be anything like that, I am excited for Codexes as nice as that on a tablet to come out. Actually the Coming Storm book I have is super nice as well. Though it is funny how resource intensive those files are. They don't work nearly as well on my older tablet.

The grand alliance chaos book for AoS is 300 pages covering 158 units for £20. It contains a little snippet of flavour text for each sub faction a piece of art and the rules for the units.
I think that the 40k books will be very similar in style.
I am not sure how many units are in 40k exactly but I can't imagine it is more than 790.

A lazy totalling up of the Wesbstore gives me 907 individual options to purchase in 40k, however this includes books, start collectings, ebooks, paint sets, the various preboxed battaltions, transfer sheets, upgrade kits etc, etc, etc

Come on, they are not giving demons their own book and lumping all xenos together. 2 xenos is a lot more likely than 2 chaos.

Probably not going to happen, but if everything is based around individual unit dataslates then they could actually include a diagram of vehicle facings for each vehicle. Would stop some of the discussion/arguments for some of the more irregularly shaped vehicles.

MaxT wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
Indeed, one of the most frustrating parts of 7th is how vehicle's all get glanced to death so easily. So to fix that problem now everything can "glance" vehicles. Forget necrons gaussing to death stuff, now grots can to.

Would it have been as frustrating if your vehicles had 10 Hull points though? Or 15 ?

Does it really change anything since big guns do multiple wounds? If we look at Empire Steam Tank at AoS, it has 12 Wounds and 3+ Save. This is probably what we can expect from average battle tank from 8 Ed, with Land Raiders being little tougher.
By contrast, Empire Cannon does 1d6 wounds with Rend -2. So against it Steam Tank has 5+ Save (if not in cover) and could die in theory from 2 hits, but more probably needs 4-5. This is not actually that different from how an equivalent tank works in 7th Edition vs Lascannons. Only major difference is that 7th Ed tank can blow up from first hit, but takes no damage at all from small arms fire (unless it's from the rear). So survivability would seem about same.

Of course you can reduce damage from the cannons or give the tank more hit points, but this moves the game exactly to the type of "RTS damage model" where units are durable and have to be whittled down slowly. So it is just as, if not more, difficult to balance than present AV system.

Another potential issue is that mid-strength shooting spam (Autocannons, Scatter Lasers etc) can potentially become self-sufficient and no longer need to worry about "AV14" tanks because they can kill everything via sheer spam. Obviously, this could be mitigated at least somewhat by Codex design.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm really hoping it can new out in about 2 months. If it's 3 I'll be in the US.

I'll still buy it but then I'll be paying crappy US prices.

8 weeks from the 22nd April is 17th June....

June 17th would seem to fit perfectly with the memo that was going around that said members of GW could not take vacation between June 7th (pre-release) and June 17th (release).

It also fits with the fact their start of their financial year is June.

Pete Foley confirms on Twitter that in the new 40k you WON'T be able to shoot in/out of combat

Backfire wrote:

MaxT wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
Indeed, one of the most frustrating parts of 7th is how vehicle's all get glanced to death so easily. So to fix that problem now everything can "glance" vehicles. Forget necrons gaussing to death stuff, now grots can to.

Would it have been as frustrating if your vehicles had 10 Hull points though? Or 15 ?

Does it really change anything since big guns do multiple wounds? If we look at Empire Steam Tank at AoS, it has 12 Wounds and 3+ Save. This is probably what we can expect from average battle tank from 8 Ed, with Land Raiders being little tougher.
By contrast, Empire Cannon does 1d6 wounds with Rend -2. So against it Steam Tank has 5+ Save (if not in cover) and could die in theory from 2 hits, but more probably needs 4-5. This is not actually that different from how an equivalent tank works in 7th Edition vs Lascannons. Only major difference is that 7th Ed tank can blow up from first hit, but takes no damage at all from small arms fire (unless it's from the rear). So survivability would seem about same.

Of course you can reduce damage from the cannons or give the tank more hit points, but this moves the game exactly to the type of "RTS damage model" where units are durable and have to be whittled down slowly. So it is just as, if not more, difficult to balance than present AV system.

Another potential issue is that mid-strength shooting spam (Autocannons, Scatter Lasers etc) can potentially become self-sufficient and no longer need to worry about "AV14" tanks because they can kill everything via sheer spam. Obviously, this could be mitigated at least somewhat by Codex design.

Weird, I read your points and come to the opposite conclusion. It would be easier to balance if you don't have to take impossible into account. This also means running a suboptimiozed list has more chance of being fun.

Backfire wrote:

MaxT wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
Indeed, one of the most frustrating parts of 7th is how vehicle's all get glanced to death so easily. So to fix that problem now everything can "glance" vehicles. Forget necrons gaussing to death stuff, now grots can to.

Would it have been as frustrating if your vehicles had 10 Hull points though? Or 15 ?

Does it really change anything since big guns do multiple wounds? If we look at Empire Steam Tank at AoS, it has 12 Wounds and 3+ Save. This is probably what we can expect from average battle tank from 8 Ed, with Land Raiders being little tougher.
By contrast, Empire Cannon does 1d6 wounds with Rend -2. So against it Steam Tank has 5+ Save (if not in cover) and could die in theory from 2 hits, but more probably needs 4-5. This is not actually that different from how an equivalent tank works in 7th Edition vs Lascannons. Only major difference is that 7th Ed tank can blow up from first hit, but takes no damage at all from small arms fire (unless it's from the rear). So survivability would seem about same.

Of course you can reduce damage from the cannons or give the tank more hit points, but this moves the game exactly to the type of "RTS damage model" where units are durable and have to be whittled down slowly. So it is just as, if not more, difficult to balance than present AV system.

Another potential issue is that mid-strength shooting spam (Autocannons, Scatter Lasers etc) can potentially become self-sufficient and no longer need to worry about "AV14" tanks because they can kill everything via sheer spam. Obviously, this could be mitigated at least somewhat by Codex design.

You are literally the only person I have ever seen argue that the current vehicle rules are good.


As for the 5 books that'll be released, it's worth remembering that they've said the core rules will be only 12 pages long and found in lots of places, so I expect they'll be printed in each of the army books as well as being free to download on the website. With the books themselves, I don't see them as "Grand Alliances" the same way they are in Sigmar, it's just a more practical logistically to put out 5 books at once than it is to put out 20, and I can see them being split like this:

Armies of the Imperium
Forces of Chaos
Aeldari
Tyranids and Genestealer Cults
The Rest (Necrons, Orks, Tau)

Independent Characters posted their own summary on FB, ITs pretty good

Couldn't catch the live stream? Here is a summary (pay particular attention to last question):

Q: Working with a couple concepts, change movement, armor modifiers, new way of doing charges, if you charge you strike first, morale changes.
A: Yes. these were concepts discussed at Adepticon.

Q: Any specific rules around vehicles and armor values?
A: No armor value anymore. All models use the same type of stat line. Big tanks get wounded (all have a damage table and stats decrease). Different for every model. Keeps vehicles through the game. Str and Toughness works where everyone can hurt everyone. (sounds like AoS there)

Q: Will each army keep its current play style?
A: Yes they are trying to keep the styles similar.

Q: Is the game still a D6 system?
A: Yes it is

Q: How long does a game take in comparison to a 1500 point game now?
A: Games were taking 3.5 hours during team tournament in 7th at Adepticon. 1500 points is about 90min. Games should take about 2 hours in general.

Q: Support for narrative play allowing connections to offshoots such as Shadow War?
A: Yes absolutely. Lots of campaigns, war zones and lots of ways of reflecting the 40k galaxy.

Q: Will any models - miniatures and scenery NOT receive new rules in the new edition?
A: No. they are all in

Q: Command points? what can you tell us.
A: Charges fight first, armies playing to play style. One of the mechanisms is called Command Points which allows you to make the army. You generate command points based on how large the army is. (Reroll dice, interrupt charging going first with a command point, etc. They are super valuable and tactical to use. Once they are gone they are gone. Additional command points will be in the various codexes (see below) Command points will for example, not only define a Space Marine army - but also the FLAVOR of Space Marine Army.

Battle Forged - Force org is in during base and competitive play. About 14 different force orgs charts.

Q: Are codexes going away?
A: No. There will be new ones in the new edition.

Q: Are Templates going away?
A: Yes they are.

Q: Are there limits to command points?
A: Yes. 1 per phase and also by formation.

Q: Has the new edition been better tested?
A: yes. A lot. In the US. Frontline, Nova, and Adepticon have tested every single unit from every codex.

Q: How will I get access to the rules for my army
A: Everyone will get their new rules Day 1. On launch there will be a series of 5 books. On that day there will be all rules available. All points have been rebalanced and units have been play tested. When your codex comes out it will include new command points, etc. Army special rules, etc.

Q: Will broken units be taken down a peg?
A: All units have been play tested. At launch this will be the most robust and most balanced version we have.

Q: Will matched play session of the 3 ways to play be updated regularly?
A: Yes. Looking at AoS and how it was done. Book will come out annually which addresses all three styles of play.

Q: How will free rules be presented?
A: Digital and all of our stores and some independent stockiest will have a limited supply at launch in print format

Q: Will there be an App with an Army Builder like AoS
A: We are working on a WH40k App. Not available on launch but later.

Q: Will we see a specific set of tournament rules?
A: Not a specific set - but match play is a good start and some guidance to tournament organizers

Q: How can we be confident you have had enough time to do this for all models and rules?
A: Its been a long time in the making. We engaged with others quite awhile ago and we are pleased and confident that its going to be great.

Q: What were the Top 3 goals of the design team for this edition?
A: Lots of goals. 1 to make a game that worked for all three ways to play. Spent a lot of time on the background. Push to the forefront the battle between Imperium and Chaos. Thats not the rightful place. Chaos is the big threat to the galaxy. You will see that come through more over the next couple of years. Over the 2+ years that 7th has been around we have received a lot of feedback from players. This edition tried REALLY hard to make it the game you asked for. We are listening and trying to tick the boxes that you are asking for.

Q: When is the new edition being released?
A: This year. We will have more news on that very soon. But not today.

Q: Will we see more at Warhammer Fest?
A: Safe to assume we will show more there.

Q: With the advent of AoS we saw a lot of models disappear. Will the same thing happen to 40k?
A: No. All factions and models currently represented will be there.

Q: Will we have points on launch?
A: more than one set of them. We have two different ways to play. One called Power Level focused on narrative play, doesn’t matter what you equip with. broad brush stroke. Just for fun but has some structure.

Then there are matched play points which are more granular where you are paying points for models, weapons, equipment, etc.

Two different ways focused on the way you want to play.

Q: Some factions seem to be missing from the website
A: Site is from a narrative point of view. All factions are still there. (eg: Astra Militarum vs Tempestus Scions). its a very top level view of how things fit.

Q: Will we see any new factions we haven’t seen before?
A: Yes. New things on the way. (even for launch)

Q: What about monsters being effected by Damage?
A: As they get wounded they get weaker. Just like vehicles. Its very fun and narrative.

Q: Will bolters be able to damage tanks?
A: Yes everything can hurt everything - BUT its hard to do. No stat is capped at 10 any longer. The big heavy weapons cause multiple damage now.

Q: What sizes of games are supported?
A: All sorts of sizes. Match play scales through about 1000 points to much larger. Narrative play scales from about a 1000 to the skies the limit.

Q: What model has the highest wound count.
A: Knights are pretty high - but don’t recall off the top of head.

Q: Recognizable Force Org Chart?
A: Yes

Q: Allied forces still viable?
A: yes but it works differently now. Addresses Death Stars. Its a keyword driven system (like AoS) so some units will NOT play off of other units due to key word. Abilities are passed on to units they SHOULD be passed on to and not units they should not.

Q: Will there be deathstars in the game?
A: A tournament term - they normally come about as a result of holes in the rules and work as never anticipated. Things that don’t fit the narrative. The keywords help keep this in check. We can be much more in control of the synergies.

Q: Is close combat going to be viable again?
A: Absolutely. Its a huge part of the game and was missed before. You will see some changes.

Q: Will there be benefits to sticking to one faction?
A: Yes there will be. Mostly based on command points.

Q: What are you guys most looking forward to?
A: Looking forward to reaction to the finished product. We want to see how close we got to what people were asking for.

Q: FW Rules
A: Will be available in the same way though not necessarily the same place.

Q: Background change?
A: We aren’t going to radically change what 40k is about but we are going to advance the storyline and add more background.

Q: People asking about I bought a rulebook or codex fairly recently and now it won’t be valid. What should I do?
A: Everything we have launched in the new game - our customer service people will send vouchers for the value of their purchase for last 8 weeks if you have proof of purchase. Email customer service team on GW website and they will sort you out.

This is my first post in 6 years, stopped playing at the end of 5th edition, was sitting out the 6th because of RL commitements but still intended to come back, and then saw the shitshow that was 7th edition with it's massive bloat and GW throwing any resemblence of balance right out of the window for the sake of profit at the expense of the rules.
As a result I sold of 60% of my vehicles (basically everything that wasn't completely painted by me or only half-assembled) and eventually planned to get rid of the rest of my collection at the end of the year as well as I just didn't see any future for 40k with the direction it was heading, only nostalgia (hard to give away your old toys and fond memories) kept me from doing so until now.

It goes without saying that the news and information concerning the new Edition leave me very hopeful and optimistic, if not downright hyped. While it is extremely sad that WHFB and it's entire gameplay system was axed in favor of a god-awful reboot of the lore and initial release, from what I keep seeing and hearing, AoS as a game itself is now quite balanced and has GW taking in considerable input from the players instead of downright ignoring them like they did for the last 10 years, so 40k ending up like that sounds good instead of trying to improve on the current sorry state of affairs. The Q&A they released sure makes me much more hopeful than before, after a good 10 years they finally have found their humour and self-irony again and actually seem to realize what went wrong in the last few years (or least since the new CEO and leadership took over), that's indefinitely better than the GW we had to deal with for the last six years now and that didn't give a gak about balance or anything besides profit.

Speaking of that, I am super happy that they are rebooting and going over the system and core rules from the ground up, a clean slate was desperately needed after over a decade of bandaid fixes and Great Unclean one levels of bloat (how many pages does the vehicles section in the rule book have just by itself nowadays? 30+ pages?) that was slowly suffocating the whole system, with the latest codex releases often being completely overpowered while some races had to deal with Codices from two editions ago and rules that were horribly outdated and were basically cannonfodder outside of very few, very specialized lists. Finally things get equalized and they can start with an equal footing for all the races. Everything I heard from the Live streams, twitter posts, rumours and other tidbits also sounds great and like a big improvement over what we have now, something that definitely can't be said for the last two editions.

Also have to say that I am really surpised about the amount of borderline paranoid levels of cynicism, pure negativity and toxicity in this thread, it wasn't that bad when I left as far as I remember. Is that what the 6th and 7th edition has done to the players here? If it is then I'm glad then I stopped playing when I did.

That said, concerning people complaining about lasguns and bolters being able to hurt tanks from the front and ranting on about how unrealistic that is, have any of you ever considered that there are several cases in the lore and novels where for example a Imperial Guard sniper fires a high powered las-shot through one driver's viewing slit, killing him in the process and disabling the tank? Or how bolters with their explosive rounds should be more than capable of taking out all those optics needed to not render a tank blind? As the rules are right now there is an absolutely 0% of either happening, so how is that supposed to be realistic? Especially because many of you seem to completely disregard the notion that a tank already hit with anti vehicle weapons would have damaged parts that would be easier to damage or even shoot through with small arms.

Found this gem on the matter on the 40k reddit:

As a US Army M1A2 Armor tank crewmen of 10 years I know for a reasonable fact that sustained small arms fire from 240b machine guns .50 cal machine guns and 249 squad automatic weapons could easily make a tank inoperable. They can destroy the sights on the bother thermal and day light sights for both the commanders and gunners station in the tank forcing the gunner to use his back Up (GAS ) Gunners auxiliary sight. Greatly reducing his combat ability and if a insanely lucky shot from a high calbier could destroy that to literally making the gunner and tank commander blind. Incredibly hard to do but possible. So to every one bitching that this is the end of 40k shut up

If anyone is still going on about Lasguns not being able to hurt tanks and other vehicles (including light ones such as landspeeders that are even open topped) from the front, especially after hundreds of shots, and claiming that it's unrealistic, how about you guys come back with statemements by actual tank crew service personell to back your claims up? Lots of arm chair armoured vehicle and military experts in here with little to back up what they are furiously typing.

I welcome the vehicle changes in particular, replacing hull points and AV with toughness, a whole bunch of hitpoints and armor saves is a much needed step to get rid of dozens of pages of specialized rule bloat and balance vehicles against monstrous creatures. How was it ever fair or realistic that a Land Raider could be blown up by one Lascannon hit while a Carnifex could be essentialy headshotted by one in the eye and still keep going?

To sum things up I am really glad about the direction GW is going with 8th Edition and can't wait for it to come out, if they had kept doing what they did with the 7th Edition then I would have sold the rest of my stuff at the end of the year while they are still worth something.

These changes to vehicles and templates, from what we know, make no sense IMO, especially with the comment that anything can wound anything...

Let's take a real life example: WW2 Allied infantry firing rifles at a Tiger Tank.

The riflemen could stand there all day and all night firing away, and nothing would happen. Yeah, you might get a one in a million shot where a bullet goes down the barrel and richots inside the tank and kills all the crew, but I'm not buying that.

Did tank commanders hanging out of turrets get picked off by snipers? Of course they did, but 40k was never set up like that.

Even the WW2 'heavy bolter,' the .50 calibre machine gun wouldn't dent the Tiger Tank.

I have no problem with a heavy bolter taking out light vehicles, open topped vehicles, Ork trukks etc etc in 40k, but lasguns and heavy bolters against a land raider? Not for me

That AV 14 is there for a reason and well justified IMO.

The removal of templates is also bizarre. Flamethrowers shoot erratically in real life.

I suspect that most dakka members are also into military history/historical gaming as well, so you'll know that shrapnel from artillery fire flies all over the place, hence the template being needed.

If you've ever read WW2 infantry accounts from allied soldiers in say, Normandy, you'll know the Germans were good at air bursts with their mortar fire. This negated a lot of cover, and when fired in trees, the splinters of wood often caused casualties among the Allied troops.

This new edition needs templates.

 Bottle wrote:
Pete Foley confirms on Twitter that in the new 40k you WON'T be able to shoot in/out of combat

Came here to post this! For any of you concerned re: AOS slightly lax shooting rules:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
These changes to vehicles and templates, from what we know, make no sense IMO, especially with the comment that anything can wound anything...

Let's take a real life example: WW2 Allied infantry firing rifles at a Tiger Tank.

The riflemen could stand there all day and all night firing away, and nothing would happen. Yeah, you might get a one in a million shot where a bullet goes down the barrel and richots inside the tank and kills all the crew, but I'm not buying that.

Did tank commanders hanging out of turrets get picked off by snipers? Of course they did, but 40k was never set up like that.

Even the WW2 'heavy bolter,' the .50 calibre machine gun wouldn't dent the Tiger Tank.

I have no problem with a heavy bolter taking out light vehicles, open topped vehicles, Ork trukks etc etc in 40k, but lasguns and heavy bolters against a land raider? Not for me

That AV 14 is there for a reason and well justified IMO.

The removal of templates is also bizarre. Flamethrowers shoot erratically in real life.

I suspect that most dakka members are also into military history/historical gaming as well, so you'll know that shrapnel from artillery fire flies all over the place, hence the template being needed.

If you've ever read WW2 infantry accounts from allied soldiers in say, Normandy, you'll know the Germans were good at air bursts with their mortar fire. This negated a lot of cover, and when fired in trees, the splinters of wood often caused casualties among the Allied troops.

This new edition needs templates.

Did you read the post before you??

As a US Army M1A2 Armor tank crewmen of 10 years I know for a reasonable fact that sustained small arms fire from 240b machine guns .50 cal machine guns and 249 squad automatic weapons could easily make a tank inoperable. They can destroy the sights on the bother thermal and day light sights for both the commanders and gunners station in the tank forcing the gunner to use his back Up (GAS ) Gunners auxiliary sight.

Have you actually looked at the 40k images - tank commanders hang out of the turrets ALL the time - they wave swords around for one thing, Marines don't wear helmits half the time - tanks need infantry to keep other infantry away from them - thats why tank commanders hate to fight in cities and the like.

Templates are ok - they are not the only way to simulate these effects - alhtough I will miss the flamer one

My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

Simple

Round was a dud,

It buried itself too deep before going off,

You missed the unit and only managed to cip one guy - Same as when your template scattered off target and did nothing

Flamer thrower

The mechanism was playing up

low on fuel

badly aimed

 Bottle wrote:
Pete Foley confirms on Twitter that in the new 40k you WON'T be able to shoot in/out of combat

Now if only they'd do the same in AOS, my happy jig would be complete.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

I'll take a guess here and suggest the Demolisher won't be 1d6 for hits. Maybe 2D6? or 1d6+6 or a whole range of possibilities! Or alternatively think of the worst case and moan about that, that works too.

 Imateria wrote:

You are literally the only person I have ever seen argue that the current vehicle rules are good.

They are flawed, but with flaws which are trivially easy to fix: either move back to 5th edition vehicle rules, or give vehicles more Hull points. Literally nothing else is needed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

The same way that a template scattering and only hitting one model in a unit makes sense.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

The same way that having 10 models under a template doesn't guarantee that 10 wounds are rolled.

They're just different abstraction methods for the same in-game effect.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

I guess it was fine when the "most powerful tank-portable explosive weapon the Imperium can muser" only slightly irritated and put a wound in the carnifex?

Or they never scattered 10" only clipping one guy? Oh that clipping is fine when you roll scatter for it, it is a big no no when you roll a d6.


Your point is a bad one. Even the flamer one, it is a simulation of a real time event on tabletop. It is going to be silly no matter what, being disingenuous about it doesn't help anyone.

TonyL707 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

I'll take a guess here and suggest the Demolisher won't be 1d6 for hits. Maybe 2D6? or 1d6+6 or a whole range of possibilities! Or alternatively think of the worst case and moan about that, that works too.

It could even do a flat 4/5/6 damage and have a chance to do d6+ hits on a 6 or something. Many options.

Glad to hear scatter is gone. I had way too many times in my old store where a couple offenders would put a line over the scatter die then rotate it 45 degrees while moving it to show where the scatter landed. And the scatter die WAS rolled next to the unit being shot it. Moving 4-5" with a measured line was enough for a 45 degree change, going from hitting 5 men in the unit to hitting 1. Goodbye and good riddance. It allowed for way too much cheating.

90% of us on here have been frothing at the mouth for vehicle "wounds" ala Sigmar monsters. We've wanted it. We got it. If you're in the tiny minority that didn't want it, just remember it's impossible to please everybody all the time. It's your turn to be unhappy. 90% of us are thrilled.
This is an arbitrary estimate.

Core rules free and much cheaper rulebooks with more stuff in em; "wait, it isn't 100% free?! Ragequit!!!" You won't be missed. The rules have always cost money. You get the core rules and the basic scrolls free. Mantic has done something similar with their rules, and no big deal. Simple basic stuff was free, but you only got like 1/4 of the units in the army to work with. Here you get the whole army, but no points; you can just throw stuff on the table and play like the original sigmar (granted, nobody played that more than once). If you want points, you can pay a small amount (it's sounding) for a TON of content. We're gamers. We know new editions are things that invalidate our old stuff. MK3 for PP. Warhammer every edition change. M:tG cycles. Kings of War volume 2, D&D 5th, etc etc. Editions change. You get a new set of rules. Magic is the the one exception where the rules aren't invalidated...but your whole bloody "army" (deck) is! The rest require a new rule book purchase. Yes, purchase. GW isn't doing anything wrong.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
These changes to vehicles and templates, from what we know, make no sense IMO, especially with the comment that anything can wound anything...

Let's take a real life example: WW2 Allied infantry firing rifles at a Tiger Tank.

The riflemen could stand there all day and all night firing away, and nothing would happen. Yeah, you might get a one in a million shot where a bullet goes down the barrel and richots inside the tank and kills all the crew, but I'm not buying that.

Did tank commanders hanging out of turrets get picked off by snipers? Of course they did, but 40k was never set up like that.

Even the WW2 'heavy bolter,' the .50 calibre machine gun wouldn't dent the Tiger Tank.

I have no problem with a heavy bolter taking out light vehicles, open topped vehicles, Ork trukks etc etc in 40k, but lasguns and heavy bolters against a land raider? Not for me

That AV 14 is there for a reason and well justified IMO.

The removal of templates is also bizarre. Flamethrowers shoot erratically in real life.

I suspect that most dakka members are also into military history/historical gaming as well, so you'll know that shrapnel from artillery fire flies all over the place, hence the template being needed.

If you've ever read WW2 infantry accounts from allied soldiers in say, Normandy, you'll know the Germans were good at air bursts with their mortar fire. This negated a lot of cover, and when fired in trees, the splinters of wood often caused casualties among the Allied troops.

This new edition needs templates.

There is no need for templates. You didnt even give any reasons why they should stay, you get the same result with '' pick a point of the board every unit with in 3" takes D3 hits.'' This 'new' system allows flexible rules for every blast or template effect instead of 3 cookie cutters. Scatter is a needless abstraction at this scale, i hope they die with the templates then i dont have to face palm when my battle tank shoot behind its self because 'reasons'.
Your historical referencing is pointless this is a scifi-fantasy game, emphasis on fantasy emphasis on game, and bad bad bad. If you really need to justify all this for your self then at least start with a semblance of whats being portrayed, a heavy bolter is not a 50.cal and lasgun is not a bolt action rifle. Ones a rpg/grenade launcher machine gun hybrid the other is a laser gun....

 Mr Morden wrote:
Simple

Round was a dud,

It buried itself too deep before going off,

You missed the unit and only managed to cip one guy - Same as when your template scattered off target and did nothing

That's generally what To Hit rolls represent! Once you've hit though, BOOM. Not, "I hit and... one guy managed to die in the explosion, whereas the others were miraculously unharmed!".

 Mr Morden wrote:
Flamer thrower

The mechanism was playing up

low on fuel

badly aimed

I'd argue that's why flamers had such a short range, because at longer ranges all of the above would happen.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My issue with the lack of templates is that it just doesn't make sense.

I fire a Demolisher cannon at you and roll a 1... so the most powerful tank-portable explosive the Imperium can muster manages to hit 1 guy with a massive explosion? How does that make any sense?

Most shots miss in war, but when a bloody great explosion goess off at the centre of 10 people, it's not like people get hit randomly by the expanding wave of fire and pressure. It hits everything.

Same applies to flame throwers. You don't wave a sheet of flame at 10 people and watch as 5+ of them just stand there wondering why their buddies are on fire.

Simple

Round was a dud,

It buried itself too deep before going off,

You missed the unit and only managed to cip one guy - Same as when your template scattered off target and did nothing

Flamer thrower

The mechanism was playing up

low on fuel

badly aimed

Even if the round was a dud, the sheer weight of the shell landing on people would probably cause casualties.