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 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Also why would one ever take weapons specialized for killing heavy infantry like plasma cannons when a lascannon would be indefinitely better at taking out vehicles and could still inflict D6 wounds on MEQ/TEQ without having whatever handicap they are going to replace plasma meltdowns with?

Because from what the post says it seems like wounds do not spill over. D6 damage will not kill D6 space marines. It will kill one.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
D-Scythes.

I'm not crying.

You're crying!

I'm going to guess that D-Scythes are 8", Assault D6, S4, AP -5, D1, Autohit

Ill bet that it will be something like, 6's to wound are AP-3 rather then the whole weapon.

Also bet Invuln's will ignore rending.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I hate to rain on this parade, but those weapon profiles are bizarre to say the least.

They're not even consistent with their own fluff.

Bolters are supposed to fire exploding bolts, but not even a hint of armour piercing? Thus invalidating years of fluff!

So your basic guardsman in flak armour is getting a save against an exploding bolt? Right...

Experience gained from an entire edition of the game (2nd) showed that handing out save mods to basic infantry weapons is a mistake. So there's that.


My guess was that the save mods for 8th would **very roughly** follow this pattern:

Old AP5/6: no mod
Old AP4: -1
Old AP3: -2
Old AP2/1: -3

So far it looks like we're on target and on a good path.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't see anything about Rapid Fire not allowing Charges unless Relentless, so it technically could be a buff for Marines as they're finally able to make use of those melee stats.

God I hope so. But then why do bolt pistols exist?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't see anything about Rapid Fire not allowing Charges unless Relentless, so it technically could be a buff for Marines as they're finally able to make use of those melee stats.

God I hope so. But then why do bolt pistols exist?

Extra attack in combat.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't see anything about Rapid Fire not allowing Charges unless Relentless, so it technically could be a buff for Marines as they're finally able to make use of those melee stats.

God I hope so. But then why do bolt pistols exist?

So you can fire two of them or hold a chainsword in the other hand.

To stop Assault Marines looking silly

 gorgon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I hate to rain on this parade, but those weapon profiles are bizarre to say the least.

They're not even consistent with their own fluff.

Bolters are supposed to fire exploding bolts, but not even a hint of armour piercing? Thus invalidating years of fluff!

So your basic guardsman in flak armour is getting a save against an exploding bolt? Right...

Experience gained from an entire edition of the game (2nd) showed that handing out save mods to basic infantry weapons is a mistake. So there's that.


My guess was that the save mods for 8th would **very roughly** follow this pattern:

Old AP5/6: no mod
Old AP4: -1
Old AP3: -2
Old AP2/1: -3

So far it looks like we're on target and on a good path.

Yep and light and heavy cover would possibly be a +1 and +2 to saves respectively.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't see anything about Rapid Fire not allowing Charges unless Relentless, so it technically could be a buff for Marines as they're finally able to make use of those melee stats.

God I hope so. But then why do bolt pistols exist?

Because they can't go back in time and remove them just for this edition's ruleset...?

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
well, I think there is an overfocus on the one shot. A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now, other changes may balance that out, but if costs and weapons access remains roughly the same, then these units are going to be even worse off potentially.

I think we need a refocus here. Anti-tank weapons should be good at hurting big things. It's the middle range weapons that should get nerfed against a dreadnought.

On some level thats fine, but they're becoming vulnerable to a much wider array of small/medium weapons at the same time.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

Well, that's average. A slight push on the bell curve could do it. The dreadnought will also be weakened. *And that is ok.*

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

That doesn't look much deadlier than 4 Lascannons shooting now.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Also why would one ever take weapons specialized for killing heavy infantry like plasma cannons when a lascannon would be indefinitely better at taking out vehicles and could still inflict D6 wounds on MEQ/TEQ without having whatever handicap they are going to replace plasma meltdowns with?

Because from what the post says it seems like wounds do not spill over. D6 damage will not kill D6 space marines. It will kill one.

Yeah, that seems to be how it will work. A flamer, with D6 hits, can hit multiple models. A lascannon can only hit one model (but can do multiple wounds on that model).

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

even better with cover

sounds fantastic. i can actually get to walk my dread up for more than 1 turn.

Yep and light and heavy cover would possibly be a +1 and +2 to saves respectively.

I'm guessing +2 only for military fortifications etc.

I am wondering if they might bring back saves for area terrain. Seems like a streamlining thing to do.

I bet the new Melta rule is that at at half range, it becomes AP -4 and/or does double wounds.

Speaking to how damage works: Most of the changes were made to make the game faster. Individual damage allocation slows the game down and allows shenanigans. I think it will work like AOS, if a Lascannon hits a squad of troops, that squad will take d6 wounds, not one guy in the squad takes d6 wounds.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

I don't think you would roll the D6 till you got past the armour save so its:

Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6 hits
Wounding on 2+ nets ?
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so
Any hits that are not saved become D6 Damage

Sorry can't do the math...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
well, I think there is an overfocus on the one shot. A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now, other changes may balance that out, but if costs and weapons access remains roughly the same, then these units are going to be even worse off potentially.

I think we need a refocus here. Anti-tank weapons should be good at hurting big things. It's the middle range weapons that should get nerfed against a dreadnought.

On some level thats fine, but they're becoming vulnerable to a much wider array of small/medium weapons at the same time.

I mean, I can kind of understand this concern but...I'm not concerned about small numbers of boltguns or the like downing a Leman Russ.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Bolts don't just explode. They're designed to penetrate the target and then go off.

Exactly. And that has been established fluff since, what? The 1980s?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I wonder what the railgun is going to look like.

Personally, I favor heavy weapons being able to kill multiple models. There is zero reason for why a hyper velocity railgun slug should expend all its energy obliterating a single guardsmen.

If that was the case, heavy weapons would be better at killing everything, not just tanks. Lascannons would be the end-all choice. I think people should really try to think of this stuff more in game terms, rather than that what would "make sense" for the fluff of the particular weapon or unit.

 Vaktathi wrote:
On some level thats fine, but they're becoming vulnerable to a much wider array of small/medium weapons at the same time.

Not really they aren't, the amount of shots needed from small arms is massive. And medium weapons already slaughtered vehicles, now they would be far less effective.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

In reality, anti-tank weapons are capable of destroying tanks with one hit. Is that still possible in this new edition? I don't know...

It's not, and that's the point. The chance of being on-shot instantly is what kept vehicles undepowered compared to monsters for the last two editions.

That's the risk tanks take on the battlefield and why they usually have infantry with them.

If tanks are not effective in 40k, then the blame for that should be placed at the door of the game designers.

You design an effective vehicle that blows up 33% of the time

Yeah if you shoot that flamer at a unit of Hormagaunts, it'll on average do about 2-3 wounds.

Not exactly an anti-horde weapon, more a short ranged Bolter that usually but not always hits more often.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Speaking to how damage works: Most of the changes were made to make the game faster. Individual damage allocation slows the game down and allows shenanigans. I think it will work like AOS, if a Lascannon hits a squad of troops, that squad will take d6 wounds, not one guy in the squad takes d6 wounds.

I just can't see a ruleset where the Lascannon becomes a powerful infantry clearer. I think it'll be the other way.

Have to see.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A single lascannon from a tac squad wont have that ability, but a unit with multiple heavy weapons will have a far easier time killing such a vehicle with a single salvo, and the save wont make up for it. Thats my concern. Vehicles are already fragile and, at least looking at the Dread, it doesnt look to be getting hardier in any way (beyond the small chance for a single heavy weapon to one shot something), less so actually.

Now let's see:
Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6(6) hits
Multilyed on D6 (3.5 average) it's 9.3(3) hits
Wounding on 2+ nets us 7.7(7) wounds
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so: 6.481 wounds after saves
Doesn't look like a likely one-shot to me.

I don't think you would roll the D6 till you got past the armour save so its:

Devastator squad would have 4 lascannons
Hitting on 3+ it's 2.6 hits
Wounding on 2+ nets ?
Dread would still get 6+ save after -3 AP to his 3+ so
Any hits that are not saved become D6 Damage

Sorry can't do the math...

Should be 6.48 wounds in average.

 gorgon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I hate to rain on this parade, but those weapon profiles are bizarre to say the least.

They're not even consistent with their own fluff.

Bolters are supposed to fire exploding bolts, but not even a hint of armour piercing? Thus invalidating years of fluff!

So your basic guardsman in flak armour is getting a save against an exploding bolt? Right...

Experience gained from an entire edition of the game (2nd) showed that handing out save mods to basic infantry weapons is a mistake. So there's that.


My guess was that the save mods for 8th would **very roughly** follow this pattern:

Old AP5/6: no mod

I

Old AP4: -1
Old AP3: -2
Old AP2/1: -3

So far it looks like we're on target and on a good path.

I may be wrong on this, but in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition, bolters having AP5 was never a problem anywhere, for anyone. My memory is hazy, but in my few years of reading various topics on dakka, I don't think anybody ever complained about bolters slowing down the game or being too powerful or whatever.

"Damage is a big change. This stats effectively lets a single hit deliver multiple wounds to one model. So, as we can see, the bolter does a single would per hit, and so is optimised for shooting models that have a single wound themselves, whereas the lascannon, one of the most powerful man-portable weapons in the game, kicks out D6 damage, allowing it to blast chunks off large vehicles and monsters and kill light vehicles and characters in a single hit. Against something like Guardsmen or Orks though, this formidable damage output will be wasted."

The last line makes me think damage will be done to a single model, perhaps.

As for random hits for the flamer, I like the auto hit but I'd rather it were slightly less random perhaps, maybe d3+3 or so.

 Vaktathi wrote:
On some level thats fine, but they're becoming vulnerable to a much wider array of small/medium weapons at the same time.

It would take 108 bolter shots though. The real test will be assault cannons / scatter lasers.