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 Azreal13 wrote:

Actually, to be fair, I think the precise content of what he said was that it wasn't what he'd had described to him. If I'm remembering that right, then it could simply be a case of miscommunication/understanding.

This is indeed likely, but then other info he has may have been affected by similar miscommunication as well, rendering it less reliable.

I still think that the likeliest explanation for this new look is that it is just some new gear for normal marines and the size increase is just normal scale creep and there's no fluff reason for it.

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

How does that make any difference? No one is disputing that they're being made to make money, that has no actual relevance to the lore reason or what they're actually going to use the new kit for. They're going to be a new product for sale, of course they're intended to make money.

Why does the fact they will make money seem to be such a big deal as if they can't do something people want AND make money at the same time. I have wanted "true scale" marines for many years. Yup, it's painful and should have come long ago but it's finally here.

I guess I think (and I could be wrong) that I'm not the only person that wants bigger marine models. Can't make everyone happy all the time I guess. I'm currently in the "happy" group it would seem.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

that has no actual relevance to the lore reason

Exactly my point.

There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.

Chikout wrote:

Not necessarily. If roboute was introducing a new kind of marine to his armies, would it not make sense to split these new guys into small teams to support each battle company?
Also with the ultramarines having a pretty rough time in the gathering storm you could have new guys being subbed in to make up for lost numbers.

There are plenty of fluffy reasons why you could have new and old marines fighting together.

Reserve Companies support the Battle Companies though, and these are Marines which despite being 'better' will still perform the same roles, so it makes more sense for them to be inserted into the battle companies.

Fluff wise, yeah you could have them operating in units with older Marines. My point though is that moving forward, these Marines will replace the older ones at least for the Ultramarines. IDK if other chapters will follow suit and I am sure the fluff will support/leave room for DIY chapters still running older marines.

krazynadechukr wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

that has no actual relevance to the lore reason

Exactly my point.

There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.

Oh, have a word will you?!

This is no different than every single model GW make. Literally every single one has some lore "justification" to allow them to make it so you buy it. Stop making out that it's some deep insight into the commercial machinations of big business that you've suddenly figured out like some sort of guru.

PS still waiting for that source.

 Azreal13 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

that has no actual relevance to the lore reason

Exactly my point.

There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.

Oh, have a word will you?!

This is no different than every single model GW make. Literally every single one has some lore "justification" to allow them to make it so you buy it. Stop making out that it's some deep insight into the commercial machinations of big business that you've suddenly figured out like some sort of guru.

PS still waiting for that source.

Word.

GW is a company, if it doesn't make money by selling models and games, they may as well pack everything up and go home. So they try and maximise profits? Big whoop. People need to get over it.

From what I've heard there is definitely a lore reason, they are not just a new mark of armour. I also know that people have lost (entry level) jobs at HQ recently for loose lips on the topic, so I'm not surprised that no one "reliable" is confirming what that lore is.

 JamesY wrote:
From what I've heard there is definitely a lore reason, they are not just a new mark of armour. I also know that people have lost (entry level) jobs at HQ recently for loose lips on the topic, so I'm not surprised that no one "reliable" is confirming what that lore is.

Thanks for the insight, James!

What puzzles me is that two of the bolter marines in the back row appear to be in the identical pose. Which suggests these are snap-fit. Hmm.

Ah finaly the "Project Homo sapiens novus" is here!
And the big marines get their models! Ja!

And GW doesn't even have to retcon anything of their lore!

Ok, here for the younger ones a part of that rather okd article ( could be White Dwarf 261):
n 998.M41, Explorator Magos Marco Pteronus led an archeological expedition to the Dead World of Inculaba, discovering a long-lost Adeptus Mechanicus geno-lab. During excavation of the site it was discovered that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that had lain undiscovered for 5,000 standard years. Secrets regarding a Founding of the Space Marines sometimes referred to as the Cursed Founding. The 21st Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding following the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. It had taken place in the 36th Millennium shortly before the start of the Age of Apostasy. Upon further explorations of the site, it was discovered that the geno-lab was indeed the site of the secret project known as "Homo Sapiens Novus," where Mechanicus Genetors attempted to perfect and remove the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately begin the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines. But their project was doomed to failure as the Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters.

A secret vid-log of the former project manager revealed the full extent of their failure. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus. Others developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strained the tolerance of the Inquisition and threatened the Chapter's survival. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted the vile Traitor Fabius Bile to its existence. Bile was the former Chief Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Traitor Legions.

The Explorator team further discovered that there was a hidden laboratorium that contained three large incubation tanks with an enormous human male floating in amniotic fluid within each one. The physiology of these giants were similar to Space Marines, but the subjects were far larger than normal Astartes. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third still appeared to be functioning. Autopsies were performed on two of the bodies while the revivification process was begun on the third. An agent of the Inquisition that had been inserted within the Adeptus Mechanicus some years ago reported the disturbing news of the discovery from the archaeological site on Inculaba. A Grey Knights team was dispatched to prevent the sacred technology of this site from falling into the wrong hands. But by the time they arrived, they found no trace of the Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team and no sign of their vessel. The site was as bereft of life as a world stripped by the Tyranids. There were no bodies discovered and no evidence of any attackers. Astropaths detected a residual Warp trail, but were unable to discern its direction. The site was then bombed from orbit with Cyclonic Torpedoes and all record of it was expunged from the Imperial bureaucracy. The Inquisition fears that what was on this world is now gone, taken by the agents of Chaos, and that they will eventually rue the day that this cursed place was discovered anew.


—-----—

Maybe Cawl managed to retrive all the info before it all went legs up and worked on the problems and had a breaktrough afte all those millenias?

krazynadechukr wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
I am amazed at the complex theories of the new marines. Some creative and wild stuff. Pretty cool.

A shame it just comes down to GW wanting to sell new models and make more $$$$.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest answer is most often correct. New edition, new starter, appeal to new players. Make old players buy the new shiny stuff. Look at AoS and the new minis that came out. You can use your old warhammer minis indeed.

that has no actual relevance to the lore reason

Exactly my point.

There's not going to be any "lore reason" to justify the new size marines. It is what it is. GW is making a new game with proper sized miniatures, and that is it. So many people trying to add some meaning or background to "why" GW are making "true scale." No. Nada, New minis, that's all. They'll sell more. Their "lore" is money. Stop trying to create some justification about the new sized minis.

What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".

Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?

I still think the new faction is the Gullimarines and if you look at the Marine and Bolter stats shown you can see GW have left wiggle room for an improvement without going over the top.

A point of leadership here a extra wound there and a -1 rend to a newer type of bolter and you have an improvement over minimarines without being op.

 miniholic wrote:
Ah finaly the "Project Homo sapiens novus" is here!
And the big marines get their models! Ja!

And GW doesn't even have to retcon anything of their lore!

Ok, here for the younger ones a part of that rather okd article ( could be White Dwarf 261):
n 998.M41, Explorator Magos Marco Pteronus led an archeological expedition to the Dead World of Inculaba, discovering a long-lost Adeptus Mechanicus geno-lab. During excavation of the site it was discovered that buried deep within the rock of this barren world were secrets that had lain undiscovered for 5,000 standard years. Secrets regarding a Founding of the Space Marines sometimes referred to as the Cursed Founding. The 21st Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding following the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium. It had taken place in the 36th Millennium shortly before the start of the Age of Apostasy. Upon further explorations of the site, it was discovered that the geno-lab was indeed the site of the secret project known as "Homo Sapiens Novus," where Mechanicus Genetors attempted to perfect and remove the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately begin the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines. But their project was doomed to failure as the Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters.

A secret vid-log of the former project manager revealed the full extent of their failure. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus. Others developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strained the tolerance of the Inquisition and threatened the Chapter's survival. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted the vile Traitor Fabius Bile to its existence. Bile was the former Chief Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Traitor Legions.

The Explorator team further discovered that there was a hidden laboratorium that contained three large incubation tanks with an enormous human male floating in amniotic fluid within each one. The physiology of these giants were similar to Space Marines, but the subjects were far larger than normal Astartes. Two of these tubes were obviously damaged, the fluid within cloudy and stagnant, but the third still appeared to be functioning. Autopsies were performed on two of the bodies while the revivification process was begun on the third. An agent of the Inquisition that had been inserted within the Adeptus Mechanicus some years ago reported the disturbing news of the discovery from the archaeological site on Inculaba. A Grey Knights team was dispatched to prevent the sacred technology of this site from falling into the wrong hands. But by the time they arrived, they found no trace of the Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team and no sign of their vessel. The site was as bereft of life as a world stripped by the Tyranids. There were no bodies discovered and no evidence of any attackers. Astropaths detected a residual Warp trail, but were unable to discern its direction. The site was then bombed from orbit with Cyclonic Torpedoes and all record of it was expunged from the Imperial bureaucracy. The Inquisition fears that what was on this world is now gone, taken by the agents of Chaos, and that they will eventually rue the day that this cursed place was discovered anew.


—-----—

Maybe Cawl managed to retrive all the info before it all went legs up and worked on the problems and had a breaktrough afte all those millenias?

Old-school GW was all about putting fluff "hooks" into the background for things they might explore one day*. C'tan, Tau (Necromunda spyrer suits!), Hrud, this. But some of those are better left alone, because having the answers and super-duper Marines around is not as cool as the mysterious blurb makes it out. Same with *cough* Primarchs returning *cough*, IMO.

*something AoS lore really struggles with, IMO. They seem more interested in throwing random names out for places or events to sound cool, but one never heard of those and never will know more, so why would you care that the inhabotanta of the Skulltoad Islands were put to the sword by Bloodbound, - even if it were ten quadrillion people that were then turned into interior devoration for Khorno followers.

I sure hope people are as obsessed with these Nu Marines at my LGS. I gotta split that starter with someone!

I'm still reckoning they are regular Marines upsized instead of a new unit because they're just too plain looking for a modern GW special unit. They look like they've been intentionally made plain looking so that there can be more special dudes added later. If they were Gulliman's fancy new marines I'd expect them to look fancy right out of the gate.

So far everything points to these just being a better representation of astartes than what's currently available. Any background jiggery pokery I feel will be for the purpose of justifying oldmarines rather than numarines. Who really is going to be buying 2012 tac squads when they can get straight up better miniatures with better rules?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".

Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?

When the new assault marine box came out, there wasn't an in lore explanation of how they're different to the older ones. They were just released. When the Tactical marines were last updated with Grav weapons, there wasn't a long fangled lore explanation of how every Space Marine Chapter found Grav weapons under the stairs. Sure as you say new models get lore, but replacements of older kits generally don't.

1) They look like they're equipped with weaponry of tactical marines
2) They've been painted as tactical marines
3) They're not festooned with bits and pieces to denote a super duper special unit

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck

The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"

MaxT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What's your evidence for this not getting a lore explanation? Every new model release has an accompanying addition to the lore, although not so much when it's just a re-make of an already existing kit. This clearly isn't a re-make/replacement at this time as the older models are still being supported based off the devastator picture, and they are actual differences in the pattern of armour itself, not just more detail or new poses or whatever. Games workshop justifies their new models with new lore (or the other way around), they don't just shove out something new and go "we don't know how this makes sense in our setting, but give us money anyway".

Several others have said it already, but what's your source for this rumour being confirmed you mentioned a few days ago?

When the new assault marine box came out, there wasn't an in lore explanation of how they're different to the older ones. They were just released. When the Tactical marines were last updated with Grav weapons, there wasn't a long fangled lore explanation of how every Space Marine Chapter found Grav weapons under the stairs. Sure as you say new models get lore, but replacements of older kits generally don't.

The new Assault Marine box also wasn't taller or bulkier models, and just really added Eviscerators and Grav Pistols.

So are these new scale marines out? I bought a box of Tac marines and they seem different? But then I'm not normally a major SM player. They def came with the bigger base for sure.

 nintura wrote:
So are these new scale marines out?

No.

I bought a box of Tac marines and they seem different? But then I'm not normally a major SM player. They def came with the bigger base for sure.

Was it this box?


If so, that's the box that has been out for a decent while now. The 32mm bases are standard for Marine models; barring a few older kits(Dark Angels Company Veterans, for example) which were released pre-32mm bases and haven't been repacked yet.

Ah ok. Yep, def that box. I must have bought a really old box for my Salamanders then.

MaxT wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck

The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"

By looking at the models, I'd absolutely agree. To me it would seem highly weird, if this new breed of supposed super marines would sport perfectly normal UM tactical livery. Then again, several people, some highly reliable, are saying that these are a fundamentally new sort of marine. I really don't know what to think.

In any case, I really hope that the übermarine fluff is not true, it would instantly devalue the old marines in a very fundamental way.

Well I think they have to offer some lore justification, even if only a cursory one, otherwise Marine players are going to feel like their entire collection has just been invalidated in a single stroke.
Especially those who bought those expensive FW armour conversion kits.

It sets a bad precident as well, are they going to do the same to other armies? I don't want to have all my Slugga boys to suddenly turn out to be too small to properly represent Space Orks!
It would put the dampners on my 8th edition army plans even though I don't play marines.

I liked what they did with AoS. They essentially said 'All your current models are completely legitimate representations of things in this new world, but we also have loads of cool new gak to show you'.
That seems much more inclusive to me, even the kits they longer sell are still included in the lore and the tabletop rules.

 Crimson wrote:

MaxT wrote:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck

The only difference between these marines and the existing tactical marines is a couple of detail changes on the armour and a couple of mm in height. Changes that are impossible to differentiate from a couple of feet away. I'm just not seeing GW making rule changes between these and other marines simply because you can't tell them apart when playing. "These marines that look like tactical marines and these other tactical marines are different really"

By looking at the models, I'd absolutely agree. To me it would seem highly weird, if this new breed of supposed super marines would sport perfectly normal UM tactical livery. Then again, several people, some highly reliable, are saying that these are a fundamentally new sort of marine. I really don't know what to think.

In any case, I really hope that the übermarine fluff is not true, it would instantly devalue the old marines in a very fundamental way.

I've had some time to think and maybe the original pic is of a prototype that the sculptor made to give the concept to GW. They then went and produced the actual models in the next pic we have. That is why there are similarities, but still different enough to tell.

As for them being uber marines. I vaguely remember reading the Horus Heresey story where the raven guard accelerate the growth cycle of a marine and this could just be that since big G is preparing for the coming storm. Perhaps they don't need to even find human hosts anymore and create it all in a lab. That would make building up forces easier. I could also see them crank out millions of these troops while still rebuilding the legions the regular route, only to have big G and Cawl die or the technology get destroyed during the coming storm. Then the replacements are not replaceable and that's why their numbers never exceed chapter strength.

 Kroem wrote:
Well I think they have to offer some lore justification, even if only a cursory one, otherwise Marine players are going to feel like their entire collection has just been invalidated in a single stroke.
Especially those who bought those expensive FW armour conversion kits.

The size of the marines has been increased several times previously, and there has never been any fluff reasons given.

 Kroem wrote:
I liked what they did with AoS. They essentially said 'All your current models are completely legitemite representations of things in this new world, but we also have loads of cool new gak to show you'.
That seems much more inclusive to me, even the kits they longer sell are still included in the lore and the tabletop rules.

And if these new Marines are just updates for the existing Marine kits, the old ones will also be legitimate representations of Marines just as much as all the discontinued WHFB/AoS kits are still legitimate representations of whatever they once were.

GW have upsized models several times in the past with no explanation given.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:
I've had some time to think and maybe the original pic is of a prototype that the sculptor made to give the concept to GW. They then went and produced the actual models in the next pic we have. That is why there are similarities, but still different enough to tell.

What differences are there? They look pretty much the same to me (at least as well as I can tell from the tiny blurry pics we have).

 Kroem wrote:
It sets a bad precident as well, are they going to do the same to other armies? I don't want to have all my Slugga boys to suddenly turn out to be too small to properly represent Space Orks!

This already happened.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened before or indeed that it cannot happen, what I am saying is that I think it would be a bad idea to do it now.

The 'scaling up' must have been pre 3rd edition. I still have old orks and marines from then, I just looked and can't see any difference in scale.
The only marines I have that look smaller are the ones from the old starter paint set.

The installed user base now has to be alot higher than it was at the start of 3rd edition right? I think people are alot more willing to give feedback (i.e. complain) now that the internet exists as well.

We shouldn't let skinflints stand in the way of awesome stuff.