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The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:33:08
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
JohnnyHell wrote: The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
Wasn't Rick Prestley the one that said in a interview that 40k as a setting was totally ironic in itshelf? That the Imperium and the Space Marines specially where a parody of themselves, but that people has forgotten that to take them seriously? And not only the fans, the own GW has did that. You can see it, pushing the "The Space Marines are the good guys" when they where the Iron Fist of a opresive goverment that followed the twisted teachings of a rotten corpse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:46:22
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Can we stop slapping out the term truescale as if it's meant to mean anything here? As has been covered plenty of times, marines are correctly scaled to more factions than they aren't, with plastic cadians being the biggest cause of abberation.
Do marines have wonky proportions with bigger heads and stubbier limbs than is realistic? Yes, but so do pretty much all humans and humanoids citadel put out.
These guys aren't even much taller, we've seen comparisons put together showing they're very slightly taller once you straighten out the legs from the squatting pose tactical marines stand in at rest.
JohnnyHell wrote: The Space Marines were a joke, the irony at the heart of the 40K universe. "Best of the best"? They were all variably flawed. Some mutated, some rebelled, some are pious, some are treacherous... even the devout are a pale shadow of what they were intended to be, becoming warrior monks repeating patterns learnt by rote and eschewing all progress.
Anyone who can't see that the Marines are this, their noblest and most heroic moments notwithstanding, is not really grasping the full scope of the core of 40K lore.
Wasn't Rick Prestley the one that said in a interview that 40k as a setting was totally ironic in itshelf? That the Imperium and the Space Marines specially where a parody of themselves, but that people has forgotten that to take them seriously? And not only the fans, the own GW has did that. You can see it, pushing the "The Space Marines are the good guys" when they where the Iron Fist of a opresive goverment that followed the twisted teachings of a rotten corpse.
Yep. It was designed that way. And this new Crusade is no different. They believe themselves to be righteous, so set out to commit atrocity after atrocity.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
changemod wrote: Can we stop slapping out the term truescale as if it's meant to mean anything here? As has been covered plenty of times, marines are correctly scaled to more factions than they aren't, with plastic cadians being the biggest cause of abberation.
Do marines have wonky proportions with bigger heads and stubbier limbs than is realistic? Yes, but so do pretty much all humans and humanoids citadel put out.
These guys aren't even much taller, we've seen comparisons put together showing they're very slightly taller once you straighten out the legs from the squatting pose tactical marines stand in at rest.
Agreed. It's getting fething annoying.
Apparently everyone thinks SM should all be Robert Wadlow...
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
No but also pissing 30 years of backstory.away in a moment of wardian fanwank is not that great, look at AoS and it's current vapid knock off of Mtg and Planescape.
Which part of the 30 years of backstory? That story has changed numerous times, as I already stated. So which is the correct version? When you got into the game, or some later or prior point? Just curious what is the "official" version according to you that is getting pissed on.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
In art proportions are usually measured in heads, and GW uses comparative measurement(ish) across the range. The average mini is about 32mm and the heads 5mm so thats about 6 heads high, meaning 1 head = 1 ft. Space marines are about 7 ft tall so should be a head taller than a guardsman.
If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Galas wrote: People, the setting is an excuse to sell models.
I know, I know, I love it too, but first and foremost what they sell is models, not a setting. If they change the setting to make more money, they are just doing what EVERY company do.
40K is not a work of art do for the love of it. Is a multinational company property to give them excuses to push more model-sales.
And at the end of the day, the fault of all of this come to us, the customers, for buying Space Marines and worse, 30k Space Marines like hotcakes.
Honestly, i don't see this is a slap in the face. People are overreacting and getting tunnel-vision.
THEY ARE GOING TO SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE! THEY ARE BRINGING HOPE!
When this is just a balancing act to keep the equilibrium: as it is, the Imperium isn't holding anymore, it's being crushed under a thousand fronts and the crack that's splitted reality and the galaxy in two parts. This isn't the original "they are doomed to fall down... eventually, someday". They are falling down now. Sol's defenses have been breached, Cadia fell. The storm's never uglier than now and they need a plank to merely keep going on and keep them at bay.
That's exactly why it's bad, though. Rather than things getting progressively worse and then having to overcome it through sacrifice and a great loss to the Imperium, it's throwing out a solution to all the problems before they've even became that much of an issue. Those Warp storms everywhere? The Chaos attacks? The Fall of Cadia? "Suddenly new Super Marines are here, don't worry, it's not as much of a problem now!". Unless this ends up horribly backfiring on the Imperium, it goes against the core theme of the Imperium and the setting of having no real hope and. facing overwhelming odds but still being able to pull through occasionally.
*Rolls eyes*
I don't see this as bad. Doing a rehash of the last 30 years isn't good either.
No, we must reread the same story over and over for all time. Each new edition must be the same as the last, with only the edition number changing. This is how you make compelling products that people want to keep buying.
No but also pissing 30 years of backstory.away in a moment of wardian fanwank is not that great, look at AoS and it's current vapid knock off of Mtg and Planescape.
Which part of the 30 years of backstory? That story has changed numerous times, as I already stated. So which is the correct version? When you got into the game, or some later or prior point? Just curious what is the "official" version according to you that is getting pissed on.
Additionally, nothing has been retconned, neither GW nor anyone else posting is claiming RG has always been awake and this is how it's always been, the backstory is just fine, it all happened just as it was presented, now things are moving forward.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
Indeed, it's been a conga line of "oh, these things were always here!" or "guess what just got dug up- Space Marines inside of Space Marines!" for the last few years. Even GW had to realize that excuse was getting old.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:09:29
When I saw the first leaked image, I knew this was the direction GW was going in. GW has never been in the business of outright invalidating things...heck, look at the 2nd priest with a plasma gun who has retained rules since he was first released! *However*, that doesn't mean GW will go away from supporting a previous product...
Stormcasts became marines in fantasy because marines sell tremendously well, but since their release Stormcasts have had something over their marines counterparts: they're bigger than anything else in the game! Space Marines- in their art presentation- are identical to Stormcasts in size and scale, but that isn't reflected well by the models. GW has decided to match them up in favor of the art representation, and so they're making them bigger. But GW won't risk alienating their customers by simply up'ing the size of the standard marines, so instead they'll just stop supporting existing marine with new releases (which I expect to peter out by next year).
As for the other armies, Chaos marines can easily be resized because Chaos, and the other armies will stay as they are so that Marines can be the biggest and baddest mothers in the game.
From a business perspective, it makes pretty good sense for GW to go this route. People will buy these new guys, and complaints will be responded with the usual chorus of "you don't have to buy them!" Really, one of GW's greatest commodities is the loyalty of many of their customers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:13:29
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
This has nothing to do with the Armour or equipment. This isn't a retcon where it's you're supposed to just pretend it was like it the whole time. If this was something like "Hey, we found a new STC template and managed to slightly improve Space Marine armour, here's a new Marine kit!" that would have been fine, albiet it might have invalidated peoples current armies, although not really if you consider things like Necrons and Dark Eldar got an entire revamp. It's that this is having what seems to have massive amounts of entirely new ultra-space marines with equipment superior to the rest appear out of almost nowhere to (at least what's suggested) solve all the problems the Imperium faces and save them that's the problem, with it being forced into the setting in a way that removes one of the core themes of there seeming to be no real hope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:14:24
Except it isn't being forced into the setting, the setting is being altered and they're part of that.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
angelofvengeance wrote: And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
Which made space marines heroic as they battled unending horrors in a shrinking mankind with no hope for salvation. Now they are just extras.
May as well rebox as nu stormtroopers in the increasing irrelvant astra militarium.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Azreal13 wrote: Except it isn't being forced into the setting, the setting is being altered and they're part of that.
"Forced into the setting" as in, were not something that was hinted at in the past, just suddenly appeared out of almost nowhere and have been done in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
This has nothing to do with the Armour or equipment. This isn't a retcon where it's you're supposed to just pretend it was like it the whole time. If this was something like "Hey, we found a new STC template and managed to slightly improve Space Marine armour, here's a new Marine kit!" that would have been fine, albiet it might have invalidated peoples current armies, although not really if you consider things like Necrons and Dark Eldar got an entire revamp. It's that this is having what seems to have massive amounts of entirely new ultra-space marines with equipment superior to the rest appear out of almost nowhere to (at least what's suggested) solve all the problems the Imperium faces and save them that's the problem, with it being forced into the setting in a way that removes one of the core themes of there seeming to be no real hope.
I'd argue that retconning is directly 'forcing into the setting', far more than introducing new things in an ongoing story. And that they're not vastly different. But each to their own.
Also <SPOILERS> I think we all know they won't solve anything, just prolong the endless war.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:18:43
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
People have complained about fluff issues with these other things before. There's plenty of threads and teeth gnashing on these topics, they were just played out years ago and, ultimately, retcons of things that mostly were just weapon swaps on vehicles are a bit easier to deal with than "new Marines...but Better!". Stuff like the Stormraven and Centurions certain created lots of fluff butthurt however.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
At the risk of sounding patronising, unless you're just being incredibly obtuse...
A retcon (short for RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY) is where these things have always been there, just off camera, or not mentioned for whatever reason and then they finally are. Those are the things like the aforementioned Land Raider Redeemer and Centurions.
These Numarines have not been part of SM armies before, its established that they do not even exist until RG brings them into the galaxy. This is NOT a retcon. This is an advancement of the storyline.
angelofvengeance wrote: And given the Imperium is getting battered like a red headed step child at this moment in time, it's clear that your run of the mill Astartes ain't gonna cut it against Chaos and the many Xenos races out to stomp humanity.
Which made space marines heroic as they battled unending horrors in a shrinking mankind with no hope for salvation. Now they are just extras.
May as well rebox as nu stormtroopers in the increasing irrelvant astra militarium.
Space Marines where never heroic. Only a small group of them like the Salamanders and the Space Wolves in some cases where truly heroic. They were just out there, killing stuff that try to kill humans, so their lords can kill humans without distractions.
The Interex and many other human Empires were killed by Space Marines in the Great Crusade because they didn't want to be part of the Imperium. This was never about human survival. It was about doing a genocide to all the universe and make it think as the Emperor wanted. They have failed at that. They are gonna retry it again with the new marines of Guilliman.
If you see this as eliminating the Grimdark of the universe, then the problem is that you have lost the true vision of how the universe was built.
If tomorrow the Tyranids bring to the galaxy a new generation of Tyranid beast and warriors, no one will say anything about that invalidating the current Tyranid tendrils of the Hive-Fleet.
The Imperium IS the Great Devourer of the Galaxy.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:27:32
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Yep. It was designed that way. And this new Crusade is no different. They believe themselves to be righteous, so set out to commit atrocity after atrocity.
Yeah at there very best and noblest the Imperium are not so much the "good guys" as the "not as bad guys". Servitors anybody? There all over the Imperium doing all sorts of tasks and they are totally horrific.
Warhams-77 wrote: Now I hope they will bring out some new, accompanying tanks
And flyers ...
Thundereagles?
If this will turn out to be just an infantry kit (or three) ... :( *Sad Panda*
A new Land raider kit would be welcome. Its a cool design but the kit is a real pain in the bum. Still I'm really interested to see how much cross over these guys have with the armoury of the existing Astartes and if it will go both ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:23:36
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
At the risk of sounding patronising, unless you're just being incredibly obtuse...
A retcon (short for RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY) is where these things have always been there, just off camera, or not mentioned for whatever reason and then they finally are. Those are the things like the aforementioned Land Raider Redeemer and Centurions.
These Numarines have not been part of SM armies before, its established that they do not even exist until RG brings them into the galaxy. This is NOT a retcon. This is an advancement of the storyline.
Got it?
As an intelligent human, I was aware of all of that, but thanks for the Wikipedia impression. I also wrote that they're an advancement. Tell me - how do they materially differ from the last new Marine power toy? They for Marines, they're stronger. Try grasping my point before assailing it, ta.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Kanluwen wrote: Wonder if this is why the Scythes of the Emperor have been getting so much fluff love from Black Library of late.
I dunno but I did just interview Laurie Friday night about the Scythes as a package (audio, novel, 7 shorts) and I don't get the impression it's anything more than attention on a great opportunity for a chapter's fluff. But who knows...
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JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
For serious, your aware that its not new power armor right? Nobody would care if it was new power armor. They are literally new bigger stronger faster tougher space marines. They also exist at the same time as the current space marines, its not a retcon bigger space marine, its an entirely new better space marine.
except we dunno if thats true or not, for all we know these guys are just spacemarines in new power armor, and the break through is just "we've managed to recreate the more efficant marine creation process of the Heresy, now that Gulliman's told us how!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
JohnnyHell wrote: If anyone is protesting at this but didn't rage-quit at new Land Raider variants, new fliers, new new and new old Dreadnoughts, or especially frickin' Centurions then yeah... complaining about new power armour is a bit... odd?
What most people seem to mean is "wahhh I thought I had the strongest army nooooo".
I strongly suggest you look up what a retcon is, as the Numarines are not one of them. All of the above were...
They were all changes to the status quo that weren't there before. Only one is causing people to soil the bed.
Yeah
Or maybe just maybe those other things we're mostly irrelevant compared to the introduction of a whole new faction inteded to replace GW's most iconic and best selling line [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].
Ultimately this has nothing to do with fluff but I would guess marine sales have started to stall and GW saw the whole tru scale bollocks and stormcast sales and did some simple math.
GW predict any people lost will be outweighed by new players and people replacing whole armies of marines so I guess even New GW thinks people's main hobby is buying stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 20:50:58
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
Seems I've hit a nerve. Shan't respond as there's a Rule 1 you might want to read, colourful as the womble line is.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Legion: Dark Angels 
