Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azreal13 wrote:
We have confirmation that they're own thing. They can't be both.

They are reinforcements for the dwindling Marine Chapters. As attrition takes its toll and only NuDudes are produced...narrative could easily go that way. We don't have the proof you state, only that for now they are distinct.

Ok, combine that with the fact that they can't reach half the galaxy then.

If there's replacement on the horizon, it's so far off that it isn't really worth spending energy on any more than people wake up every day freaking out over the heat death of the universe.

I think this will also help GW separate the Horus Heresy stuff (which is Space Marine centric) from 40k, which will move to having the Nu-Marines eventually replace the previous marine range.

Backfire wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Mark the date, today is when you realized that Roboute Guilliman putting on a leather jacket and jumping over a shark pool wasn't actually cool.

When you have a brand, one of the most important rules is that you don't water down the brand. Lets take James Bond. It is well estabilished that double-oh agents are Her Majesty's finest operatives, and James Bond is the most legendary of them all. Now imagine that MGM expands the franchise with triple-oh agents who are even more skilled and special, and best of them is 0001 Mary Sue who is stronger, smarter, suavier and just generally superior to James Bond every way. And the studio explains "oh, you can still enjoy James Bond movies, they are not going anywhere, we are just expanding the brand with something even better".

How well would that go over?

Its not the same thing at all. One is a character being replaced by another character.

You need to read more carefully - my analogy was not about James Bond being retired, he would still exist in the movies, just being inferior to Agent Sue.

I read just fine, thanks. You said a character would be introduced that was superior, ergo replaced. I did not mention retired.

If a new more powerful Marine unit makes people feel their armies are inferior, then once again, ain't the first time this has happened. If the exact narrative framing of this latest New Uber Toy is what's rankling, then eh, what can you do? It's happening. It's not massively different to "GUYS WE FOUND A NEW LAND RAIDER" but I've beaten that drum already.

 Melissia wrote:
The MarineMarines are explicitly stated to be reinforcements for your regular Marines, not replacements.

Which implies replacement. Reinforcements are replacing nothing with something. Reinforcing marine ranks with better super marines means you are replacing the recruitment process for marines.

Reinforcement means replacements.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, combine that with the fact that they can't reach half the galaxy then.

If there's replacement on the horizon, it's so far off that it isn't really worth spending energy on any more than people wake up every day freaking out over the heat death of the universe.

It's more that we won't see releases for marines of the current scale continuing for much longer. I believe Hastings mentioned something to this effect as well (as few releases here and there but not much.)

Episode IX - Yoda returns from the dead! And in the shadows he has mastered Ancient Secrets of the Force and trained a new breed of warriors called...the Zedi! Faster and more powerful than the old Jedi, armed with 3-bladed Brightsabers, they are the ones who will really take the fight on Snoke. Move over, Luke and Rey, you're obsolete!

 Accolade wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, combine that with the fact that they can't reach half the galaxy then.

If there's replacement on the horizon, it's so far off that it isn't really worth spending energy on any more than people wake up every day freaking out over the heat death of the universe.

I believe it's more that we won't see releases for marines of the current scale continuing for much longer. I believe Hastings mentioned something to this effect as well (as few releases here and there but not much.)

Agree. This is the most logical take.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The MarineMarines are explicitly stated to be reinforcements for your regular Marines, not replacements.

Which implies replacement. Reinforcements are replacing nothing with something. Reinforcing marine ranks with better super marines means you are replacing the recruitment process for marines.

Reinforcement means replacements.

Reinforcements need not be replacements, they are reinforcements. If you're reinforced with an anti-tank platoon, you're not replacing your AA section or your infantry assault losses for example, you're gaining a new anti-tank capability.

By that logic, if a part of the lore says a Space Marine force is being reinforced by elements of the Imperial Guard, that means Space Marines are being replaced by the Imperial Guard and we'll have no more Space Marines, just Imperial Guard.

Ridiculous logic being thrown around here.

That's a semantic cul-de-sac not worth pursuing, as the video says they are reinforcing dwindling Chapters with the new Marines. So it's both.

We still don't have enough information about how these NuMarines are going to fit with the existing Astartes organization and how the two groups interact.
Are they going to be a stand alone force or a supplement to existing army's?
Will the NuMarines be led by existing Marine veterans and if so at what level?
How do the two types of Marine see each other, and what does the wider Imperium think about the situation?

Maybe they will replace the god awefull centurion armour
I don't play marines so can't say it bothers me apart from the one small detail and here it is.

Why in all hell does an overlay saturated army get even more new stuff come on what about us xeno players with out us there would be no battles.

Some one in gw please stop the madness of the space marines they already had so many codec's that it's insane just on the face of it to start this new game with yet what more marines .

Sucks

 JohnnyHell wrote:

If a new more powerful Marine unit makes people feel their armies are inferior, then once again, ain't the first time this has happened. If the exact narrative framing of this latest New Uber Toy is what's rankling, then eh, what can you do? It's happening. It's not massively different to "GUYS WE FOUND A NEW LAND RAIDER" but I've beaten that drum already.

Land Raider Crusader did not make basic Land Raider obsolete or useless. It is a different weapon with different purpose. Grey Knights are specifically made and trained to special mission, and they are not making other Marines pointless any more than SEAL is making Rangers pointless. Even Centurions, daft as they are, don't make other Marine unit types obsolete or useless.

Hypothetically, one might imagine if say, Tau, get a new type of super powerful suit which does all same things as tanks better than the tanks, and all same thing as Battlesuits better than the battlesuits, that might be a comparable situation and I dunno, might incite a complaint or two from the fanbase.
Hypothetically, of course.

Wow so much negativity in this thread!

I love the idea of a second crusade through the galaxy with armies of marines backed up by their new souped up brothers.

It seems like a very natural progression of the storyline to me. With RG back in play it seems like we will have a newly energised Imperium counterattacking against all the foes that are coming in from every corner.

The grimdark aspect of 40K is still there after all, Cadia has fallen and the Fenris system is in flames. Time mankind got some revenge methinks!

Also thanks to that video I finally know how to pronounce that darned primarch's name...

 Melissia wrote:
By that logic, if a part of the lore says a Space Marine force is being reinforced by elements of the Imperial Guard, that means Space Marines are being replaced by the Imperial Guard and we'll have no more Space Marines, just Imperial Guard.

Ridiculous logic being thrown around here.

Except the following line to reinforcement is rebirth. They are intented to replace space marines. The true legacy of the primarch etc etc. The language is there.

Your logic is off because you are omitting information to fit your point. Your context with Imperial Guard is a different concept of reinforcements, that is to reinforce a battle line. The Numarines are to reinforce battle loss. The reinforcement is the kind of reinforcement of new recruits to a unit.

If a military unit recieves reinforcments for a battle (imperial guard joining marines) that is reinforcing the battle line. If a unit is receiving reinforcements of new recruits its replacing. Its a simple concept with a simple logic.

 Accolade wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, combine that with the fact that they can't reach half the galaxy then.

If there's replacement on the horizon, it's so far off that it isn't really worth spending energy on any more than people wake up every day freaking out over the heat death of the universe.

It's more that we won't see releases for marines of the current scale continuing for much longer. I believe Hastings mentioned something to this effect as well (as few releases here and there but not much.)

Exactly- is there much left for a substantive release for the current marines or are they just "slight better/different armour marks" sets, or chapter specific squads. The marine range is pretty full- this is the only way they can keep it going- by bringing in new stuff.
I'm not a marine player but it looks reasonable- Cawl has been working on a project for 10,000 years with access to the geneseed banks and who knows what else. They seem to be talking about new reinforcements for chapters and even the restoration of chapters that have been destroyed. Darker times calls for better super soldiers and the current marines become the old school vets..plus there is plenty of scope for chapters not taking too fondly to these new guys.

Backfire wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

If a new more powerful Marine unit makes people feel their armies are inferior, then once again, ain't the first time this has happened. If the exact narrative framing of this latest New Uber Toy is what's rankling, then eh, what can you do? It's happening. It's not massively different to "GUYS WE FOUND A NEW LAND RAIDER" but I've beaten that drum already.

Land Raider Crusader did not make basic Land Raider obsolete or useless. It is a different weapon with different purpose. Grey Knights are specifically made and trained to special mission, and they are not making other Marines pointless any more than SEAL is making Rangers pointless. Even Centurions, daft as they are, don't make other Marine unit types obsolete or useless.

Hypothetically, one might imagine if say, Tau, get a new type of super powerful suit which does all same things as tanks better than the tanks, and all same thing as Battlesuits better than the battlesuits, that might be a comparable situation and I dunno, might incite a complaint or two from the fanbase.
Hypothetically, of course.

Why is anything 'obsolete'? This hyperbole is the issue. Nothing is becoming obsolete - you get a new option is all.

 Melissia wrote:
By that logic, if a part of the lore says a Space Marine force is being reinforced by elements of the Imperial Guard, that means Space Marines are being replaced by the Imperial Guard and we'll have no more Space Marines, just Imperial Guard.

Ridiculous logic being thrown around here.

He's right though. They are being replaced, only with other marines. The same as always!

Seriously this bigger, faster, stronger thing is just a way to justify the size increase. If they have slightly better rules it will only be to encourage uptake of the new minis.

In reality all that's happening is GW are providing nicer models to play with. The idea that we have things called space marines that look like space marines, are organised like space marines and are the new recruits for the space marines chapters, yet are totally different from space marines and their own faction in a little bit mental.

The rebirth comment was "to the chapters lost". There's no evidence that all chapters are going to be lost and replaced by these.

In 5 years we all be enjoying our new Supermarines and all the Space Marines of old will be forgotten, to only be enjoyed by those extrange geeks that call themselves "oldhammers". Like those Beakies.

The process culminationg will be the Men in Black of GW erasing our collective memories of the old-Space Marines, and rebranding all this new breed of Supermarines into normal Space Marines.

All marines will die in battle and with the story moving forward only supermarines will remain, that reached that point have nothing about them Super, because the Normal Marines are no more! A perfect plan. Only a master mind like the one of Tom Kirby with the aid of Matt Ward could have planet that!

I won't be. If the replacement hyperbolists are correct, this actually makes me like Marines even less, for the same reason I like Sisters and Guard over current Space Marines.

I'm glad they're not just Marines, but a different kind of Marines.

My concern however is that this means we're never getting another 'regular' Marine release again, and that everything from hereon in will be a nuMarine, until, much like in the fluff, they replace all the existing Marines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm glad they're not just Marines, but a different kind of Marines.

My concern however is that this means we're never getting another 'regular' Marine release again, and that everything from hereon in will be a nuMarine, until, much like in the fluff, they replace all the existing Marines.

Did normal marines even need more releases? What can they need, besides... scout bikes? new terminators? Really, they have reached a point where they have just... everything.

Not a big deal. Size creep- well they already did it over the years. They won't replace current marines right away and it's just a slow 'boiling frog' scenario. If you really love the current marine range, there will be no short supply of them for many many years and I'm sure you could just use them instead of these new ones coming out in a game. But eventually down the road it will all be NuMarines. just like AOS.

If you're like me, and you hate the current marine range because of their outdated proportions and the discrepancies between the tabletop models and the fluff, then you are happy as a clam.

If you're a competitive player, and you don't care what models look like at all and I'm sure that GW will make the rules good and you can buy 10 boxes of them and kick ass on the table. And you can also probably get away with proxying most of the time.

for every one guy that is turned off by this, there will be another guy that loves it.

One of my favourite aspects of the 30k lore is the interactions between the Terran born legionaries and the subsequent generations from the primarch's homeworld.

I hope the new marines have some of those interesting interactions with the existing marines too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm glad they're not just Marines, but a different kind of Marines.

My concern however is that this means we're never getting another 'regular' Marine release again, and that everything from hereon in will be a nuMarine, until, much like in the fluff, they replace all the existing Marines.

I do believe this is what's happening, minus some releases over the next six months, and I can certainly sympathize with SM players if they're going this route.

Did anyone post/see the trailer where it is said that the Imperium has bred new soldiers? Are these marines supposed to be them, or is that trailer the confirmation people are talking about? I'm behind the times, and I only bothered reading the last two pages.

 Melissia wrote:
The rebirth comment was "to the chapters lost". There's no evidence that all chapters are going to be lost and replaced by these.

So we will get whole space marine chapters replaced by a new type of space marine, with other chapters replacing battle loss with a new type of space marine but they are not actually replacing old space marines they are just there to reinforce their battle line until they can get more of the inferior old marine?

You see how your own logic isn't actually holding up to your own scrutiny?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Why is anything 'obsolete'? This hyperbole is the issue. Nothing is becoming obsolete - you get a new option is all.

They are obsoleted from the lore point, as I tried to explain through my analogies. (In fact they probably will be obsoleted rules-wise too, otherwise why would people buy NuMarines if they aren't meaningfully better?).