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Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And then it's not the same story any more, not the same universe any more and you have driven away the people who came in because they liked that universe. Now, perhaps you draw in more people to replace those who you drove away, but it's a big risk for little gain.

Backfire wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And then it's not the same story any more, not the same universe any more and you have driven away the people who came in because they liked that universe. Now, perhaps you draw in more people to replace those who you drove away, but it's a big risk for little gain.

Hardly. Stories evolve. This one is, demonstrably. Sad that this would be a stumbling block for some.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And with ALL the possibilities that come with such an new expanded story, their hot new idea is marines...but slightly bigger.

Until such time as GW actually says that there will be Female Space Marines, please leave that speculation out of this thread.

It tends to lead the conversation down ridiculous paths which almost inevitably lead to Thread Lock.

Thanks!

 Grinshanks wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And with ALL the possibilities that come with such an new expanded story, their hot new idea is marines...but slightly bigger.

It honestly is the least interesting decision they could have made.

Any "play" with how old marines feel is going to be unoriginal at best. Mostly because that was basically already used in 40k between loyalist chapter space marines and traitorous legion space marines.

Its similar to the movie Soldier but instead of Kurt Russell going on to show what the old guard can do, he instead becomes a background extra that really isn't mentioned again past the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Are they REALLY gonna have a Numarines vs old marines rebelion to somehow get rid of they older models?

*snip* Reds8n

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And then it's not the same story any more, not the same universe any more and you have driven away the people who came in because they liked that universe. Now, perhaps you draw in more people to replace those who you drove away, but it's a big risk for little gain.

Hardly. Stories evolve. This one is, demonstrably. Sad that this would be a stumbling block for some.

Of course it will. People are drawn to Warhammer because its own distinct way of doing things. If you do away with those features, you will lose the people. I, for example, was big fan of the Old World, and do not at all like AoS universe. So I do not play that game.

Also, it is an enormous error to assume that fantasy universe needs not rules or internal consistency. They do and if you start breaking those rules on a whim, people are going to desert them because they start to feel "wrong".

We've been given the "move on", dude. Best not pursue that discussion.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
We've been given the "move on", dude. Best not pursue that discussion.

Why? It's a topic discussion - very relevant to why many people don't like the idea of new SuperMarines.

I suppose it could be a simple case of over the centuries the Space Marines have gotten weaker due to the degradation of the Geneseed (think making a copy of a copy thousands of times). In each generation of space marines, it was barely noticeable, but to Gulliman who had been asleep for 10k years, the difference would be very noticeable if we are talking decrease in muscle mass, speed etc.

After all, fluff wise space marines of the Horus Heresy were giants and insanely powerful. Given how popular the Horus Heresy series is (even with non gamers) maybe that is what GW is trying to turn the new marines into, but they cant just say, right, all old marines are wrong - they need a transitional phase

Yo dog, I heard you liked Space Marines so I put a Space Marine inside your Space Marine you can Marine while you Marine!

What a lazy and silly idea. As others have pointed out the Marines +1 idea has already been done to death with Custodes, Grey Knights, etc.

Personally I prefer games that are settings, not stories. I like to tell my own stories with the game and I like to get a feel for the mood and attitude of the setting. But games that are stories invalidate both of those things, taking away control from the player and giving it to the game developer. That's much, much less fun.

I imagine now there's a new process to make marines - presumably faster than the 6-8 years it takes to fully implant a Space Marines, seeing as they're battle-ready so soon after the project began - it will become more time and resource-efficient to replace Marine casualties with NuMarines than fully-implanted Space Marines

so if they were going to entirely replace Space marines with NuMarines, they wouldn't need a civil war, just attrition

 Saber wrote:
Yo dog, I heard you liked Space Marines so I put a Space Marine inside your Space Marine you can Marine while you Marine!

What a lazy and silly idea. As others have pointed out the Marines +1 idea has already been done to death with Custodes, Grey Knights, etc.

 Saber wrote:
Yo dog, I heard you liked Space Marines so I put a Space Marine inside your Space Marine you can Marine while you Marine!

What a lazy and silly idea. As others have pointed out the Marines +1 idea has already been done to death with Custodes, Grey Knights, etc.

Personally I prefer games that are settings, not stories. I like to tell my own stories with the game and I like to get a feel for the mood and attitude of the setting. But games that are stories invalidate both of those things, taking away control from the player and giving it to the game developer. That's much, much less fun.

It does seem lazy, but at the same time why would thry reinvent the wheel? Especially when the setting has a precedent of marines +1.

So, with bigger marines, will they make bigger vehicles for them? Or will they be treated like terminators when it comes to capacity in rhinos, land raiders, etc...?

Yeah. Good point.

Will they replace all the vehicles with large capacity vehicles?

I'm sure they will eventually. If they are making NuMarines to be the main models, that means they will have to make NuTerminators and NuEverythingElse so you can keep buying stuff. Make everything 10% bigger and charge 20% more

 bound for glory wrote:
Yeah. Good point.

Will they replace all the vehicles with large capacity vehicles?

I guess this depends on how 'all in' they are with the new scale marines, and if they really are 'super noticeably bigger', and not just 'annoyingly bigger' like the new scale Deathwatch, etc.

My bet is on no, they will not be replacing all of the vehicles...but this is based purely on my own speculation!

They will probably just be bulky, or whatever the new editions version of bulky is.

 bound for glory wrote:
Are they REALLY gonna have a Numarines vs old marines rebelion to somehow get rid of they older models?

Warhammer 40,000: Civil War

Finally my friend's Deathwatch character, Captus Americus* will have a place he can thrive!





*He's really bad at names.

I want to weigh in on this, but I can't express my opinion without using language that's likely to get me banned from the forum for a bit.

The idea of super marines is just absurd and ruins the fluff in so many ways. I DO NOT LIKE THIS.

I'm off to scream into a pillow now.

 Tamereth wrote:
I want to weigh in on this, but I can't express my opinion without using language that's likely to get me banned from the forum for a bit.

The idea of super marines is just absurd and ruins the fluff in so many ways. I DO NOT LIKE THIS.

I'm off to scream into a pillow now.

That's the spirit!

(Well, it did make me laugh, and exalt a post too!)

Meanwhile - more on topic, less LULZ please.

I also wonder about gameplay aspect of these SuperMarines. So they are bigger and stronger with better weapons - S5 T5 with S5 Boltgun and priced accordingly lest they become overpowered.
What's the point? What role they could possibly play in a Marine army? They already have Veterans and Terminators (oh and Centurions - groan) if they need more punch at some point. Having a regular Marine army with one unit of NuMarines thrown in is not going to do anything for anyone.

Or is the point to reverse dilution of 'elite' which we have seen so that 90% of armies are now 'elite' and regular Marines are just everyday GI Joes. Are GW calculating that many people will play their current Marine armies as "count as SuperMarines" so they feel like an elite army once again? This I can somewhat understand, but since they already redid ALL the codices, they could have tuned things to make regular Marines relatively more powerful.
But maybe that route would have sold less models?

I am still convinced that it was GWs intention to make this new scale marine to undo the wrong scale issue that has been present all along. Deathwatch and Custodes started the bigger marine trend. Most likely a litmus test in the 40k community/sales. More to the point, they saw an opportunity to sell new shiny products to the new incoming players attracted to the new 40k, and also get cash from the old players who don't want to be left behind playing with antiquated miniatures. After all, how many of us are still using our rogue trader era minis to play games these days? Then there's the new stats. Why play an inferior SM army when you can super size them and get better stats? Wether you play them as NuMarines or use them for real scale marines of a current legion. Do not get me wrong, I am happy for the bigger marines and emperor bless GW for making money. It's what companies do afterall. That's not my point(s). The fluff was a well thought out sales strategy to justify selling new stuff and getting a % of current players to "restart" their armies. Brilliant, but don't insult me (GW) by disguising a sales ploy with smoke and mirror fluff.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Any they feel like. It's a new story; write it differently. Nothing to stop anything being possible in a SF universe.

And then it's not the same story any more, not the same universe any more and you have driven away the people who came in because they liked that universe. Now, perhaps you draw in more people to replace those who you drove away, but it's a big risk for little gain.

Hardly. Stories evolve. This one is, demonstrably. Sad that this would be a stumbling block for some.

Except W40K is not a story. It's a setting with very distinct and iconic themes, one of which is the Imperium being a slowly crumbling empire due to it's own internal faults as well as the outside threats. The lack of hope and everything being pretty much stagnant is a core aspect of that setting, and these new Marines suddenly coming out of almost nowhere with the intention of saving everything goes against that whole idea. The stories that take place within that setting are perfectly fine to change thing slightly (e.g. the previous 13th Black Crusade progressed things somewhat while still keeping the setting pretty much the same), but this is a different level of that, this is actually changing one of the important traits of the Imperium and the setting itself. If this had been done in a way that fit in with the lore and wasn't "We found a way to make perfect Marines that are better in every way! And we found out how to make them better armour! And there are lots more of hem so we can send them to all the Chapters and rebuild old ones! And they'll get new vehicles and equipment as well!" and were something that wasn't just Space Marines 2.0, that wouldn't be as much of a problem.

I don't see how this is a good thing in the slightest. For those people who want True Scale Marines it's great, but that isn't what these are really intended for from what we've seen of them. How is it a good thing to remove a critical part of the setting (the lack of hope and progress) to force in a new faction that's pretty much the same in intent and purpose as the previous most popular faction? They're redundant, the setting already had 'better' Marines but they were alright because they had downsides.

Perhaps this will end up going very badly for the Imperium and Roboute, but considering it's being done specifically to sell new models, that seems highly unlikely.

Backfire wrote:
I also wonder about gameplay aspect of these SuperMarines. So they are bigger and stronger with better weapons - S5 T5 with S5 Boltgun and priced accordingly lest they become overpowered.
What's the point? What role they could possibly play in a Marine army?

Actually playing like fluff marines instead of just moderately better? Marines were dumbed down opposite of their fluff for both game balance but especially $$ reasons so GW could sell whole armies instead of just a few combat squads. I'd welcome numarine tacticals that are somewhere between "normal" marines and the old white dwarf "movie" marines. The tabletop guys just simply didn't fit their fluff versions nor the video games nor the rpg variants. Obviously they should be appropriately costed in points (unlike with formations for the past 4 years) to represent that as well. YMMV but I never felt that the range of abilities was wide enough within the 3rd-7th ed 40k game mechanics especially once they started narrowing it down further in late 5th (characters losing higher stats). Hopefully that will change in nuhammer.

 Saber wrote:
Personally I prefer games that are settings, not stories. I like to tell my own stories with the game and I like to get a feel for the mood and attitude of the setting. But games that are stories invalidate both of those things, taking away control from the player and giving it to the game developer. That's much, much less fun.

Ditto. I don't mind them telling stories within the setting, or even advancing the timeline as long as the setting doesn't really change.

I know some people have been crying for the story to be advanced, but I reckon there's a good chance those people are just a noisy minority.

For all these years 40k and WHFB existed as settings wherein stories were told, not stories within themselves, and I was totally fine with that.

Oh yay. The story/setting thing. We haven't had that in any threads ever.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh yay. The story/setting thing. We haven't had that in any threads ever.

If you don't have a worthwhile response, how about just not responding?