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 Luciferian wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I am hype, termies and dreadnoughts looking alot better than before!

I don't even own nurgle termies, but now I need to decide whether to get the FW upgrade set or wait for new ones!!

I would wait for new ones. If nothing else, I have high expectations for all of GW's new models.

Yeah the Death Guard pics we have seen so far do look amazing.

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 blackmage wrote:
If units can take all their saves and they let terminators keep the 5+ invuln, then they just got a whole hell of a lot tougher (same if they ignore ASM's below a certain threshold).

yes is what im thunking about armies like demons for example, modified armour save and then unmodified inv save sound big

I'm mixed on this honestly. The movement value is one of the last WHF things left which makes sense to me. Should make the eldar armies and nids faster which is a good thing (well except for craftworld eldar).

Anyway i don't totally hate this. Not sure what to think of the WS and BS part since dark eldar are generally really good at both. My issue with AoS and their to hit system was it didn't matter what you hit you always hit them the same. It could be an ogre, a slaanesh daemon, a master swordsman or a daemon prince or vampire count. Same chance to hit each time. That said they said there were debuffs and possibly buffs which isn't too bad. I will admit the WS stat was a bit needless but rather simple when you got used to it. You generally always hit on 3's, 4's or 5's except in odd situations.

I like most of the changes theres just one thing that annoys me about striking first in combat if you charge. Take this extreme example, say a tau fire warrior charges a keeper of secrets how the hell does he strike first against such an agile opponent? Really breaks the immersion of the game unless im missing something?

pilchard8 wrote:
I like most of the changes theres just one thing that annoys me about striking first in combat if you charge. Take this extreme example, say a tau fire warrior charges a keeper of secrets how the hell does he strike first against such an agile opponent? Really breaks the immersion of the game unless im missing something?

The Fire Warriors ambush and sucker punch the Keeper of Secrets.

yes is pretty stupid they took out In...now a globlar attack 1st if charge anything, ok it will still die but.... is weird

I feel like some weapons that are currently Unwieldy should probably still strike last. Things like Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, for example. Those will become crazy powerful if they get to swing before the opponent's models.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pilchard8 wrote:
I like most of the changes theres just one thing that annoys me about striking first in combat if you charge. Take this extreme example, say a tau fire warrior charges a keeper of secrets how the hell does he strike first against such an agile opponent? Really breaks the immersion of the game unless im missing something?

The Fire Warriors ambush and sucker punch the Keeper of Secrets.

The Keeper of Secret is taken aback buy the fact some puny Tau found their balls and decided to fight like real men.. Catching it off guard

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like some weapons that are currently Unwieldy should probably still strike last. Things like Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, for example. Those will become crazy powerful if they get to swing before the opponent's models.

Well, considering that instead of a blanket insta-death rule we will now have things simply dealing multiple wounds, this isn't quite as bad as it seems anymore. When a PFist could brain anyone T4 or lower in one hit just by dint of wounding then hitting last was needed. But now they can just make it do d3 damage on a hit. Still handy against tougher elites (like nobz and terminators), but unlikely to chump a character (while becoming a bit more threatening to monstrous creatures, and a bit less threatening than they used to be to light vehicles).

In either case, allowing the bloody things to hit first (alongside the 3+ to-hit in CC) actually makes terminators really threatening in close combat if they charge. Luckily, they are a full 1" slower than a normal marine, so getting the charge against faster assault-heavy armies will be tricky. Perhaps the Land Raider will see some new popularity in the face of even tactical terminators being potentially nasty in CC.

There are a lot of variables to consider here, and I don't think forcing weapons to hit last is really needed now that damage isn't a binary one-wound/instant-death proposition.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like some weapons that are currently Unwieldy should probably still strike last. Things like Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, for example. Those will become crazy powerful if they get to swing before the opponent's models.

Well, considering that instead of a blanket insta-death rule we will now have things simply dealing multiple wounds, this isn't quite as bad as it seems anymore. When a PFist could brain anyone T4 or lower in one hit just by dint of wounding then hitting last was needed. But now they can just make it do d3 damage on a hit. Still handy against tougher elites (like nobz and terminators), but unlikely to chump a character (while becoming a bit more threatening to monstrous creatures, and a bit less threatening than they used to be to light vehicles).

In either case, allowing the bloody things to hit first (alongside the 3+ to-hit in CC) actually makes terminators really threatening in close combat if they charge. Luckily, they are a full 1" slower than a normal marine, so getting the charge against faster assault-heavy armies will be tricky. Perhaps the Land Raider will see some new popularity in the face of even tactical terminators being potentially nasty in CC.

There are a lot of variables to consider here, and I don't think forcing weapons to hit last is really needed now that damage isn't a binary one-wound/instant-death proposition.

All my T3 characters will definitely enjoy not dying to the first hit allocated to them every game.

Honestly my Lelith Hesperax has only survived a wound allocated to her once in 7th edition....

So, I wonder how powerful drop pod - dreadnoughts will end up being?

Youn wrote:
So, I wonder how powerful drop pod - dreadnoughts will end up being?

Depends on how you use them.
I currently drop Powerfist+Flamer/Multi-melta Dreads on Vehicles, Scatt Bikes and blob infantry. It will no longer be immune to S5 and below, so for that use it's lost a lot of kick.
If Monstrous Creatures still have ap2 as standard it still doesn't get a save against them in Melee. It can't be doubled out to insta-death so no more explosions...Drop Dreads like exploding though...

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like some weapons that are currently Unwieldy should probably still strike last. Things like Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, for example. Those will become crazy powerful if they get to swing before the opponent's models.

But if not...15 nobs with power klaws and waaagh! banner will be the new deathstar.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If Monstrous Creatures still have ap2 as standard it still doesn't get a save against them in Melee.

AP isn't a thing anymore. Save modifiers, there are save modifiers now. Whether they get a save or not will depend heavily on the range of modifiers we see and how they are distributed.

Hopefully seeing some weapon stats tomorrow will give us a better idea. And also keep in mind that we still don't have special rules for any of these units. There may be a lot more than meets the eye here.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If Monstrous Creatures still have ap2 as standard it still doesn't get a save against them in Melee.

AP isn't a thing anymore. Save modifiers, there are save modifiers now. Whether they get a save or not will depend heavily on the range of modifiers we see and how they are distributed.

Hopefully seeing some weapon stats tomorrow will give us a better idea. And also keep in mind that we still don't have special rules for any of these units. There may be a lot more than meets the eye here.

Rend is still an armour penetration mechanic and I'm willing to bet MCs will get high enough rend values to ignore a 2+ armour save.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If Monstrous Creatures still have ap2 as standard it still doesn't get a save against them in Melee.

AP isn't a thing anymore. Save modifiers, there are save modifiers now. Whether they get a save or not will depend heavily on the range of modifiers we see and how they are distributed.

Hopefully seeing some weapon stats tomorrow will give us a better idea. And also keep in mind that we still don't have special rules for any of these units. There may be a lot more than meets the eye here.

Rend is still an armour penetration mechanic and I'm willing to bet MCs will get high enough rend values to ignore a 2+ armour save.

If you're using the AoS term for it, then you are aware that it goes to -3 in AoS and is actually handed out quite sparingly (especially in the higher values). It's also assuming that beyond their save they have no other defensive special rules (which are also a thing in AoS). That is too many assumptions at this point when all we have are some vague hints about the rules and a handful of statlines without their special rules or equipment to give them further context.

If 40k follows a similar trajectory in terms of its armour save mods, then I wouldn't go predicting a higher range of mods just yet (in fact, it would be a mistake if they went with 2nd Edition's wider array of mods), and I certainly wouldn't assume monstrous creatures get the highest possible save mod by dint of their unit type. My guess is that save mod and the damage a creature deals will be a creature-to-creature thing rather than a blanket edict.

But we wont have a good idea until we see a range of various shooting and melee weapons to know for sure.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

If 40k follows a similar trajectory in terms of its armour save mods, then I wouldn't go predicting a higher range of mods just yet (in fact, it would be a mistake if they went with 2nd Edition's wider array of mods), and I certainly wouldn't assume monstrous creatures get the highest possible save mod by dint of their unit type. My guess is that save mod and the damage a creature deals will be a creature-to-creature thing rather than a blanket edict.

Which, in turn, will make balancing things like Tyranid Monstrous Creatures much easier. Suddenly we can have support MCs that don't need to have Smash and other various MC rules baked in to their cost.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
If Monstrous Creatures still have ap2 as standard it still doesn't get a save against them in Melee.

AP isn't a thing anymore. Save modifiers, there are save modifiers now. Whether they get a save or not will depend heavily on the range of modifiers we see and how they are distributed.

Hopefully seeing some weapon stats tomorrow will give us a better idea. And also keep in mind that we still don't have special rules for any of these units. There may be a lot more than meets the eye here.

Rend is still an armour penetration mechanic and I'm willing to bet MCs will get high enough rend values to ignore a 2+ armour save.

If you're using the AoS term for it, then you are aware that it goes to -3 in AoS and is actually handed out quite sparingly (especially in the higher values). It's also assuming that beyond their save they have no other defensive special rules (which are also a thing in AoS). That is too many assumptions at this point when all we have are some vague hints about the rules and a handful of statlines without their special rules or equipment to give them further context.

If 40k follows a similar trajectory in terms of its armour save mods, then I wouldn't go predicting a higher range of mods just yet (in fact, it would be a mistake if they went with 2nd Edition's wider array of mods), and I certainly wouldn't assume monstrous creatures get the highest possible save mod by dint of their unit type. My guess is that save mod and the damage a creature deals will be a creature-to-creature thing rather than a blanket edict.

But we wont have a good idea until we see a range of various shooting and melee weapons to know for sure.

Armour better than a 4+ is also handed out quite sparingly and very few things shoot more than twenty four inches. Just because I know the mechanic doesn't mean I believe they'll copy and paste it.

I wonder if the force USR is going to remain in the game, or at least in its current incarnation.

I feel like having availability to instant death on that level is going to be massively powerful with the wounds creep we are going to be seeing in this edition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder if the force USR is going to remain in the game, or at least in its current incarnation.

I feel like having availability to instant death on that level is going to be massively powerful with the wounds creep we are going to be seeing in this edition.

I imagine current instant death stuff will just become a multi-wound attack

I was wondering how will be keeping track of remaining wounds with all this multi-wounds models. Dices? Markers?

Every time a move my tanks I have to move a ton of markers... or I cant imagine 7 tracking dices spread on the battlefield.. oops, I touched your Rhino's dice, how many were its wounds, 5? No, it were 7! No, no I'm sure, no more then 5, I shoot it in the first turn then again in third, remember?

No I don't, you are cheating.......

For stuff that large probably D10's which stand out from the d6's you will be rolling. Also color coded dice. Red for wound markers and no rolls and whatever your preferred color for your rolls.

ERJAK wrote:
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tag8833 wrote:
I'm annoyed they kept Strength and toughness. I was hoping for something like:

To Wound: 4+
Damage: 1

So much this. Works almost exactly the same in the end but is just that little bit quicker.

No. Same roll required to wound REGARDLESS OF TARGET is wrong in so many levels it's not even possible to count.


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Youn wrote:
Now, the dreadnought attacks back with say a Multi-Melta. Assuming strength 8 with 1d6 wounds at Rend -2. That will hit the tactical squad 1 time, Wound on a 2+ and do about 4 wounds that are saved on a 5+. If 4 marines die they will have to make a Moral(Battleshock test) rolling 1d6+4 vs their 7 leadership. We will say the person rolls a 4 for 8 on the roll. Now, another marine dies with no save.

Another shouldn't be possible. d6 wound hit should not kill d6 models. There should be difference with guns that are good at killing lone tough models(multiple wounds) and large swath of weak guys.

Wound bleeding. Bleh. Leads even less variety with weapons.

The problem with armour save modifiers being linked to strength in 2nd edition (and in fantasy) is that you got hit with a double-whammy when hit by a high strength weapon. Not only were you wounded more easily as your toughness was overwhelmed, but your armour save also became worse making it harder to save the inflicted wound.

Making the "rend" value of a weapon independent of its strength makes it much easier to balance. An autocannon at strength 7 (-4 armour save) would reduce a Marine's save to nothing, but if it's given the "Rend -2" rule then Marines are still getting a 5+ save against it.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I was wondering how will be keeping track of remaining wounds with all this multi-wounds models. Dices? Markers?

Easiest would be to use markers like Magic The Gathering life markers for large, multiple-wound models. Just one circular marker that can go all the way up yo or down from 20 or 30, depending on what kind you used.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like some weapons that are currently Unwieldy should probably still strike last. Things like Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, for example. Those will become crazy powerful if they get to swing before the opponent's models.

But if not...15 nobs with power klaws and waaagh! banner will be the new deathstar.

It won't be as much of a deathstar if they lose a third in, say, shooting and another third due to battleshock before getting there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
I'm annoyed they kept Strength and toughness. I was hoping for something like:

To Wound: 4+
Damage: 1

So much this. Works almost exactly the same in the end but is just that little bit quicker.

No. Same roll required to wound REGARDLESS OF TARGET is wrong in so many levels it's not even possible to count.


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Youn wrote:
Now, the dreadnought attacks back with say a Multi-Melta. Assuming strength 8 with 1d6 wounds at Rend -2. That will hit the tactical squad 1 time, Wound on a 2+ and do about 4 wounds that are saved on a 5+. If 4 marines die they will have to make a Moral(Battleshock test) rolling 1d6+4 vs their 7 leadership. We will say the person rolls a 4 for 8 on the roll. Now, another marine dies with no save.

Another shouldn't be possible. d6 wound hit should not kill d6 models. There should be difference with guns that are good at killing lone tough models(multiple wounds) and large swath of weak guys.

Wound bleeding. Bleh. Leads even less variety with weapons.

Wait, do you mean the space marine armory can have less variety than grav-guns and bolters?

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I was wondering how will be keeping track of remaining wounds with all this multi-wounds models. Dices? Markers?

Every time a move my tanks I have to move a ton of markers... or I cant imagine 7 tracking dices spread on the battlefield.. oops, I touched your Rhino's dice, how many were its wounds, 5? No, it were 7! No, no I'm sure, no more then 5, I shoot it in the first turn then again in third, remember?

No I don't, you are cheating.......

Use Adobe to add wound boxes to the data sheets. Print them out and laminate them (about $0.25/ea). Mark off damage with white board markers during the game.

 Asmodai wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I was wondering how will be keeping track of remaining wounds with all this multi-wounds models. Dices? Markers?

Every time a move my tanks I have to move a ton of markers... or I cant imagine 7 tracking dices spread on the battlefield.. oops, I touched your Rhino's dice, how many were its wounds, 5? No, it were 7! No, no I'm sure, no more then 5, I shoot it in the first turn then again in third, remember?

No I don't, you are cheating.......

Use Adobe to add wound boxes to the data sheets. Print them out and laminate them (about $0.25/ea). Mark off damage with white board markers during the game.

Do you want a cookie? You deserve it for that idea
Simple and effective.

 Rippy wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I was wondering how will be keeping track of remaining wounds with all this multi-wounds models. Dices? Markers?

Every time a move my tanks I have to move a ton of markers... or I cant imagine 7 tracking dices spread on the battlefield.. oops, I touched your Rhino's dice, how many were its wounds, 5? No, it were 7! No, no I'm sure, no more then 5, I shoot it in the first turn then again in third, remember?

No I don't, you are cheating.......

Use Adobe to add wound boxes to the data sheets. Print them out and laminate them (about $0.25/ea). Mark off damage with white board markers during the game.

Do you want a cookie? You deserve it for that idea
Simple and effective.

Yeah it works well in various games from Skirmish to Navy/Space ship battles. Might be worth suggesting to GW as something to add to datacards if they have not already.

https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/gaming-equipment/products/pin-markers



I picked up these for marking building damage in Dropzone Commander, and they should work for tracking wounds in 40k too. I sprayed the bases black and picked out the numbers in white.

For units (e.g. Terminators), I suspect they'll carry on with the rule that you remove whole models where possible, so you'll only need to track w-1 wounds across a unit as a whole, where w is the number of Wounds that models in the unit have.