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 NenkotaMoon wrote:
The SOB and IG thank you GW

I certainly am not.

I use almost as many flamers as the Sisters in some of my lists. I think it's a sidegrade more than anything else. There will be some games the rolls work out, and some where they won't. Welcome to GW. I'll take that over setting up vs Tau and losing. Assuming they fix that.

I hope that this is a trend of there being far less AP weapons in this edition. AP 2 or 3 spam is silly currently.

The current game definitely has too much AP2 and not enough AP 3.

To you, maybe, I think its fine the way it is.

But I am afraid GW's gonna fulfill your hopes, unfortunately. Wonder what's gonna make the Stormtroopers worthwhile now.

 Bobthehero wrote:
To you, maybe, I think its fine the way it is.

But I am afraid GW's gonna fulfill your hopes, unfortunately. Wonder what's gonna make the Stormtroopers worthwhile now.

What part do you think is fine, exactly? Templates? Yes, templates are mostly fine, but they are also mostly fine as a D6 roll. Since that's about what they cover anyway in the general case. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
The SOB and IG thank you GW

I certainly am not.

That is some grade "A" Heresy right there.

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
To you, maybe, I think its fine the way it is.

But I am afraid GW's gonna fulfill your hopes, unfortunately. Wonder what's gonna make the Stormtroopers worthwhile now.

What part do you think is fine, exactly? Templates? Yes, templates are mostly fine, but they are also mostly fine as a D6 roll. Since that's about what they cover anyway in the general case. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

The few AP 3 small arms we had were pretty nice (inferno bolters, sternguard with the right bullet, hotshots, anything I missed?) the tank weapons able to bypass infantry armor is more than fine. As for templates, the people I played rarely bothered spacing out to that 2'', so I'd get more than 6 hits.

Too much AP 2 and not enough AP 3. That's a big reason terminators suck currently. That, and stormbolters being useless. MCs have Toughness on top of 2+ armor.

Martel732 wrote:
I use almost as many flamers as the Sisters in some of my lists. I think it's a sidegrade more than anything else. There will be some games the rolls work out, and some where they won't. Welcome to GW. I'll take that over setting up vs Tau and losing. Assuming they fix that.

Yeah, significantly better against single monsters, somewhat better against small, spaced out units, worse against big horde units. It's also just as good at max range as it is up close, unlike the template flamer, and you don't have to worry about positioning within a squad, but possibly worse when it comes to cover. Also, we don't yet know what's going on with overwatch.

Bolters might work for finishing off a damaged dreadnought, but with degrading stats a severely damaged dreadnought might be not be worth shooting at compared to other targets that are available.

So, because now they can be a bit lazy you are mad?

 KingGarland wrote:
One thing I noticed is that the boltgun is listed as a rapid fire 1 type weapon. Rapid fires number of shot was always fixed before but I wonder what the number means. My guess is the number is the number of shots at max range and +1 at half range.

You're looking at it without really visualizing a statline.

Rapid Fire is the type of weapon it is.
1 is the number of attacks that someone makes while using that weapon.

Rapid Fire, most likely, is going to have a special rule where if a model remains stationary or sacrifices their movement/close combat or whatever they get to make additional attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
To you, maybe, I think its fine the way it is.

But I am afraid GW's gonna fulfill your hopes, unfortunately. Wonder what's gonna make the Stormtroopers worthwhile now.

Infiltration, weird deployment mechanics, a better than Guardsman statline, any number of things really.

But let's not kid ourselves. Stormtroopers weren't worthwhile before. A specific kind of Stormtrooper build was--the kamikaze.

Conscript hordes are going to be so hard to kill lol

Also, special weapons teams with three flamers... that could get messy.

Kind of wish the Bolt Gun had some sort of stat representing its ability to pen body armor... but oh well.

Stormtroopers were barely worthwhile now, make their gun worse on any targets except Terminators and you'll be left with deepstriking Veterans. Yay.

Edit: Same for the 1k Sons, really. Sternguards are going to be fine because of their combi-weapons and alternative ammo.

Have we seen the stats on Hellguns?

Oh right. No. We haven't.

Well they have less AP than lascannon in current 40k, I think its safe to assume its going to be the same in 8th.

I am certainly not holding my breath for anything good.

ERJAK wrote:


Not really, it mostly makes things more dramatic. The thing is people keep thinking about it as 'oh but MAH UNITS!' when that's not it. When a D6 damage weapon hits you naturally assume whatever it hits dies so it's not that big of a deal when it does and it's pretty nifty for you when it doesn't. It's actually the firer who will get more(but not gamebreakingly more) disappointed in the roll.

Do you also want to just roll one die to determine if the entire unit hits or misses because it makes things more dramatic?

Kanluwen wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
One thing I noticed is that the boltgun is listed as a rapid fire 1 type weapon. Rapid fires number of shot was always fixed before but I wonder what the number means. My guess is the number is the number of shots at max range and +1 at half range.

You're looking at it without really visualizing a statline.

Rapid Fire is the type of weapon it is.
1 is the number of attacks that someone makes while using that weapon.

Rapid Fire, most likely, is going to have a special rule where if a model remains stationary or sacrifices their movement/close combat or whatever they get to make additional attacks.

Or, as now, final shots are based on range rather than unit actions.

Welp, Marines are set at Morale 7. Sooo, there go IG after the first two casualties.

 Marmatag wrote:

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.
Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.
Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.
Any other way is too powerful.

Wow I really hope you're wrong. This would be terrible.
You should have the opportunity to save all the wounds.

I think they are trying to have some "reality" to how things work.
Lascannon fires one shot and hits, it potentially causes a huge hole in target, REALLY tough enough to resist?
No? Takes a bunch of wounds (big hole in target...).
Plus, performing a bunch of opposing rolls for every wound would bog the game down terribly.
1 hit, 1 roll to wound, one armor save (if applicable, like if lascannon shifts it to nothing).
I suppose after all that you then roll to see how many wounds go in.
Multi-hit & multi wound attacks could become quite the nail biter.

Funny, Bolt Action has no armor, it just uses toughness as the sole mechanic a model lives or dies by.
Though if we started adding "pins" to squads and models that could get ugly so I hope 8th is the best of both worlds.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Welp, Marines are set at Morale 7. Sooo, there go IG after the first two casualties.

Really lookin' to jerk that knee at any new info aren't you?

But yeah we don't know how well hellguns will work yet, or even if they'll still be costed well enough. Storm trooper types just tend to be overcosted in general to pay for that AP3 (Inferno guns are in the same boat).

I'll be interested to see how many 'universal special rules' (whatever they may be called) exist for weapons, or if most of them are going to look like what we saw today. Obviously weapon types like Heavy and Assault still exist, so things like Armorbane (in a modified form) and the like might still be around. Or they might not, and all of a weapon's special rules will be spelled out in the profile.

I hope the added strength / wounds / armor shift will be enough to cool down a large number of special rules.
The REAL question is when they go to assign points values.
Luckily, a model's stats and it's weapon stats are remarkably similar.
You could almost make a formula for points value... but no, that would be madness!

All I know is that we need a much smaller pool of USR this time around

 Talizvar wrote:
I hope the added strength / wounds / armor shift will be enough to cool down a large number of special rules.
The REAL question is when they go to assign points values.
Luckily, a model's stats and it's weapon stats are remarkably similar.
You could almost make a formula for points value... but no, that would be madness!

I can actually see an expansion of special rules instead of a contraction. We'll have to see, because it could go either way.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Welp, Marines are set at Morale 7. Sooo, there go IG after the first two casualties.

Commisars
Regimental/Platoon standards
Priests

All likely to reduce any impact of leadership issues.

Secondly, what on earth is shooting your IG that's only causing 2 casualties?
Because in my experience two casualties for guardsmen is a miracle....

Guardsman probably won't have a save to reflect this.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
Welp, Marines are set at Morale 7. Sooo, there go IG after the first two casualties.

That is cute, you are assuming that morale works the same in 8th as it does in 7th.

The flamer changes are actually bigger than discussed so far. It seems like the streamlining is clearly evident... flamers have just the one special rule, so no more Ignores Cover (which was excellent against Jinking bikes), no more hitting every level of a building (lovely with Ignores Cover), no more ruining open-topped vehicles (bring your DE transports right over here), and no more burning down a model or two when Charged (depending on whether Overwatch is still a thing). All of those were aspects of flamers I used regularly and will miss at least a little, if just for reasons of realism and game texture and maybe a little competitive edge. That's coming from a SoB player.

That said, everything I've seen so far seems like a reasonable price to pay for faster, more balanced games.

Essentially, you have to cause 2 casualties to make marines run. And more makes them more likely. Seems pretty harsh.

Guardsmen will probably be something like 5. They'll be taking casualties left and right, which makes sense I guess, but it could be a little unbalanced.

Am I like the only person who thinks the new weapon stats for the Flamer and Bolter are complete trash? I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of "I don't like this, but whatever..."

Flamer: Is now an Orky random pistol with worse range than a pistol. It shoots a stream of splashing liquid fire, but it might only wound 1 person - teehee! Or it might wound 6 - big money! Oh wait, a template could hit entire units and multiple units/vehicles if you played and positioned well. It's no longer a unique weapon other than being LULZ RANDOM. And yes, it is better against single models. But that's not what a crowd control weapon like a FLAMETHROWER is for; it's not supposed to be thought of as an 8" Lascannon which is what people think it is now.

Bolter: No AP... What? I mean I know the game can't always adhere to fluff, but seriously... While there's no info out, I think we can safely assume a Lasgun is weaker than a Bolter (I hope...). And a Lasgun is probably S3 as normal with no AP, because even a "mighty" Bolter no longer has AP. So a Bolter is just marginally better than a Lasgun by +1S. And I think we can also assume an Ork Slugga, for example, is likely S4 AP0, so it's identical to a Bolter in terms of power. I understand this allows soft armies to get saves, but you shouldn't get a save against an armor-piercing rocket if you're not in at least power armor... It just makes no sense and fills me with dissonance. It feels counter-intuitive and wrong. "The might Boltgun of the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! Behold it's power to be slightly better than a Flashlight and equaled only a rusty Ork grunt's pistol!"

I have no issues with the LasCannon. It functions as intended by blowing a huge hole in a single target and burning through most armor.