8th Edition weapon profiles

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**Dakka Wolf**

I know how this is going to play out for me.
D6 hits from a Flamer means one hit.

**Rippy**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Am I like the only person who thinks the new weapon stats for the Flamer and Bolter are complete trash? I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of "I don't like this, but whatever..."

Flamer: Is now an Orky random pistol with worse range than a pistol. It shoots a stream of splashing liquid fire, but it might only wound 1 person - teehee! Or it might wound 6 - big money! Oh wait, a template could hit entire units and multiple units/vehicles if you played and positioned well. It's no longer a unique weapon other than being LULZ RANDOM. And yes, it is better against single models. But that's not what a crowd control weapon like a FLAMETHROWER is for; it's not supposed to be thought of as an 8" Lascannon which is what people think it is now.

Bolter: No AP... What? I mean I know the game can't always adhere to fluff, but seriously... While there's no info out, I think we can safely assume a Lasgun is weaker than a Bolter (I hope...). And a Lasgun is probably S3 as normal with no AP, because even a "mighty" Bolter no longer has AP. So a Bolter is just marginally better than a Lasgun by +1S. And I think we can also assume an Ork Slugga, for example, is likely S4 AP0, so it's identical to a Bolter in terms of power. I understand this allows soft armies to get saves, but you shouldn't get a save against an armor-piercing rocket... It just makes no sense and fills me with dissonance. It feels counter-intuitive and wrong. "The might Boltgun of the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! Behold it's power to be slightly better than a Flashlight and equaled only a rusty Ork grunt's pistol!"

I have no issues with the LasCannon. It functions as intended by blowing a huge hole in a single target and burning through most armor.

You are assuming that guardsman etc still have saves

You also haven't seen most of the balancing, so it might not be trash when compared with everything else.

**Bobthehero**

Why would you assume Guardsmen wont have saves?

**Luciferian**

I'm totally OK with flamers being a 5 point, 8" lascannon.

I'm also totally OK with all basic troop weapons not having a save modifier.

**Jbz`**

HaussVonHorne wrote:

Bolter: No AP... What? I mean I know the game can't always adhere to fluff, but seriously... While there's no info out, I think we can safely assume a Lasgun is weaker than a Bolter (I hope...). And a Lasgun is probably S3 as normal with no AP, because even a "mighty" Bolter no longer has AP. So a Bolter is just marginally better than a Lasgun by +1S. And I think we can also assume an Ork Slugga, for example, is likely S4 AP0, so it's identical to a Bolter in terms of power. I understand this allows soft armies to get saves, but you shouldn't get a save against an armor-piercing rocket... It just makes no sense and fills me with dissonance. It feels counter-intuitive and wrong. "The might Boltgun of the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! Behold it's power to be slightly better than a Flashlight and equaled only a rusty Ork grunt's pistol!"

I have no issues with the LasCannon. It functions as intended by blowing a huge hole in a single target and burning through most armor.

As one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the galaxy would it not make sense that everyone wears armour that could protect them from it?

**Bobthehero**

I wouldn't be suprised to see the Pulse rifle with a -1 ASM.

**Luciferian**

Bobthehero wrote:
I wouldn't be suprised to see the Pulse rifle with a -1 ASM.

That would be pretty brutal.

**Lobokai**

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724444.page

Most likely this is the morale effects.

**Bobthehero**

Luciferian wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
I wouldn't be suprised to see the Pulse rifle with a -1 ASM.

That would be pretty brutal.

Yeah, well that's Tau shooting for you.

**Rippy**

Bobthehero wrote:
Why would you assume Guardsmen wont have saves?

I am not assuming, but it is a possibility, and looking at the profiles we have I wouldn't be surprised at all.

**Bobthehero**

I guess at this point it would just be another nail in the coffin for me, really not looking forward to 8th.

**Rippy**

Bobthehero wrote:
I guess at this point it would just be another nail in the coffin for me, really not looking forward to 8th.

Give it a try first. It sounds like exciting times.

**Bobthehero**

For you maybe, but everything I heard so far, except for high strenght weapons doing more than a wound worth of damage, seems to be a kick in the face of the factions I play, so forgive me for have no enthusiasm for the game whatsoever.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Bolter: No AP... What? I mean I know the game can't always adhere to fluff, but seriously... While there's no info out, I think we can safely assume a Lasgun is weaker than a Bolter (I hope...). And a Lasgun is probably S3 as normal with no AP, because even a "mighty" Bolter no longer has AP. So a Bolter is just marginally better than a Lasgun by +1S. And I think we can also assume an Ork Slugga, for example, is likely S4 AP0, so it's identical to a Bolter in terms of power. I understand this allows soft armies to get saves, but you shouldn't get a save against an armor-piercing rocket if you're not in at least power armor... It just makes no sense and fills me with dissonance. It feels counter-intuitive and wrong. "The might Boltgun of the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! Behold it's power to be slightly better than a Flashlight and equaled only a rusty Ork grunt's pistol!"

It's hard to represent a lot of the detail on the tabletop. A difference of 1 Str is not insignificant. I was thinking they might be giving AP 5 weapons a -1 modifier, but also increasing the armor saves, but it looks like they opted to keep the armor saves the same and only give out modifiers to more powerful weapons.

**Luciferian**

I'm very much looking forward to it. It sounds like there will be a lot more granularity, while at the same time the rules will be much, much simpler and quicker to play. Probably the best part is that they're starting from a clean slate in terms of unit balance for the first time since 3rd edition.

**HaussVonHorne**

Jbz` wrote:
As one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the galaxy would it not make sense that everyone wears armour that could protect them from it?

No it does not, because then most basic infantry could not move due to the weight/size and cost of the armor. And there are more lasguns and ork sluggas (because there's more armed Guard and orks) in the galaxy to overshadow every boltgun ever made. 7.62 rifles are the most common infantry weapon on earth, so why doesn't everyone just wear a bomb defuser full-body armor suit (assuming those can even stop direct bullets)?

**Luciferian**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Jbz` wrote:
As one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the galaxy would it not make sense that everyone wears armour that could protect them from it?

No it does not, because then most basic infantry could not move due to the weight/size and cost of the armor. And there are more lasguns and ork sluggas (because there's more armed Guard and orks) in the galaxy to overshadow every boltgun ever made. 7.62 rifles are the most common infantry weapon on earth, so why doesn't everyone just wear a bomb defuser full-body armor suit (assuming those can even stop direct bullets)?

IRL body armor is rated by the NIJ certification system. Soldiers and marines wear level IV rated ceramic plates that are designed to stop multiple 7.62x51 rounds, which are significantly more powerful than 7.62x39 rounds fired by your average AK. No EOD Michelin Man suit required. So, at least in our world, the average soldier does indeed wear body armor designed to exceed the threat of the average infantry round.

**HaussVonHorne**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
It's hard to represent a lot of the detail on the tabletop. A difference of 1 Str is not insignificant. I was thinking they might be giving AP 5 weapons a -1 modifier, but also increasing the armor saves, but it looks like they opted to keep the armor saves the same and only give out modifiers to more powerful weapons.

It's hard to accurately represent all the fluff, of course. But just saying through the stats that "Bolts cannot penetrate a Guardsman's flak vest," is just denying the fluff exists at all. The fluff is what sells the game (you can disagree if you want), so making people scratch their heads, especially new players, at "Why is this so-called awesome gun barely better than or identical to all other guns" isn't good. And a difference of +/-S1 is WAY more insignificant in 8th since GW has stated any model can harm any other model. Because it's a d6 system, your maximum threshold to wound anything is a 6+ and the maximum save is 2+ of any type. So the difference of +/-S1 does not matter as much when any gun can wound anything on a 6+. Yes, that's making assumptions, but how else can you interpret it? A d6 only has 1-6 on it...

**Grimgold**

A single space marine not being able to kill twenty fully armed guardsmen with his bare hands isn't fluffy either. You have to make some sacrifices when translating fluff to a game, otherwise marine armies would be too small to be interesting.

**Bobthehero**

Depends on the Guardsmen, there's plenty of example of Marines getting killed by relatively few Guardsmen.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bobthehero wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
To you, maybe, I think its fine the way it is.

But I am afraid GW's gonna fulfill your hopes, unfortunately. Wonder what's gonna make the Stormtroopers worthwhile now.

What part do you think is fine, exactly? Templates? Yes, templates are mostly fine, but they are also mostly fine as a D6 roll. Since that's about what they cover anyway in the general case. Sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

The few AP 3 small arms we had were pretty nice (inferno bolters, sternguard with the right bullet, hotshots, anything I missed?) the tank weapons able to bypass infantry armor is more than fine. As for templates, the people I played rarely bothered spacing out to that 2'', so I'd get more than 6 hits.

So your oppoents being bad and not spacing things out is a reason to hate what is actually a reasonable replacement?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people paid the premium for the AP3 when it was almost never Ignores Cover, meaning those points partly go to waste.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
It's hard to represent a lot of the detail on the tabletop. A difference of 1 Str is not insignificant. I was thinking they might be giving AP 5 weapons a -1 modifier, but also increasing the armor saves, but it looks like they opted to keep the armor saves the same and only give out modifiers to more powerful weapons.

It's hard to accurately represent all the fluff, of course. But just saying through the stats that "Bolts cannot penetrate a Guardsman's flak vest," is just denying the fluff exists at all. The fluff is what sells the game (you can disagree if you want), so making people scratch their heads, especially new players, at "Why is this so-called awesome gun barely better than or identical to all other guns" isn't good. And a difference of +/-S1 is WAY more insignificant in 8th since GW has stated any model can harm any other model. Because it's a d6 system, your maximum threshold to wound anything is a 6+ and the maximum save is 2+ of any type. So the difference of +/-S1 does not matter as much when any gun can wound anything on a 6+. Yes, that's making assumptions, but how else can you interpret it? A d6 only has 1-6 on it...

I'm not sure. I mean, a Space Marine is incredibly strong and tough compared to a normal human, way beyond the strongest and toughest humans on real life Earth. How is it represented? By giving them +1 Strength and Toughness compared to a normal human. A bolter is a very powerful weapon, as far as small arms go. How is it represented? By giving it +1 Strength compared to a normal Guardsman's lasgun (lasguns not being weak in most of the fluff I read).

I think it's also worth noting that Flak Armor only saves a model 1/3 of the time. My understanding is that it is primarily to protect against shrapnel and doesn't normally stand up to direct hits from relatively powerful weapons like bolters, but it might for example stop an angled hit from being incapacitating.

It would be nice to show the extra penetrative power of boltguns, but I can see why they would choose to simplify things in games involving lots of models.

**HaussVonHorne**

Luciferian wrote:
IRL body armor is rated by the NIJ certification system. Soldiers and marines wear level IV rated ceramic plates that are designed to stop multiple 7.62x51 rounds, which are significantly more powerful than 7.62x39 rounds fired by your average AK. No EOD Michelin Man suit required. So, at least in our world, the average soldier does indeed wear body armor designed to exceed the threat of the average infantry round.

The "average" soldier in our world is not a U.S. or NATO soldier. There are many, many more underfunded, under-equipped soldiers than there are ones wearing modern body armor. Most soldiers (anyone with with a weapon and a cause to fight for/against) wear a cloth shirt and maybe a flak vest. This is kind of besides the point which is that most (likely 90% or more due to logistics and cost) of Imperial Guard wear just a flak vest which cannot hope to stop a bolt round. And orks might have a 1/4-1" metal plate on their chest which also won't stop a bolt round.

**Bobthehero**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
to hate what is actually a reasonable replacement?

I don't find it reasonable, hence why I dislike it.

**Luciferian**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
IRL body armor is rated by the NIJ certification system. Soldiers and marines wear level IV rated ceramic plates that are designed to stop multiple 7.62x51 rounds, which are significantly more powerful than 7.62x39 rounds fired by your average AK. No EOD Michelin Man suit required. So, at least in our world, the average soldier does indeed wear body armor designed to exceed the threat of the average infantry round.

The "average" soldier in our world is not a U.S. or NATO soldier. There are many, many more underfunded, under-equipped soldiers than there are ones wearing modern body armor. Most soldiers (anyone with with a weapon and a cause to fight for/against) wear a cloth shirt and maybe a flak vest. This is kind of besides the point which is that most (likely 90% or more due to logistics and cost) of Imperial Guard wear just a flak vest which cannot hope to stop a bolt round. And orks might have a 1/4-1" metal plate on their chest which also won't stop a bolt round.

Which is reflected in their armor saves, so I still don't get the point.

**Dakka Wolf**

Jbz` wrote:
HaussVonHorne wrote:

Bolter: No AP... What? I mean I know the game can't always adhere to fluff, but seriously... While there's no info out, I think we can safely assume a Lasgun is weaker than a Bolter (I hope...). And a Lasgun is probably S3 as normal with no AP, because even a "mighty" Bolter no longer has AP. So a Bolter is just marginally better than a Lasgun by +1S. And I think we can also assume an Ork Slugga, for example, is likely S4 AP0, so it's identical to a Bolter in terms of power. I understand this allows soft armies to get saves, but you shouldn't get a save against an armor-piercing rocket... It just makes no sense and fills me with dissonance. It feels counter-intuitive and wrong. "The might Boltgun of the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! Behold it's power to be slightly better than a Flashlight and equaled only a rusty Ork grunt's pistol!"

I have no issues with the LasCannon. It functions as intended by blowing a huge hole in a single target and burning through most armor.

As one of the most common basic infantry weapons in the galaxy would it not make sense that everyone wears armour that could protect them from it?

We're talking about a galaxy that puts more value on most resources than on lives.

I hope you weren't referring to the Bolter as one of the most common weapons in the galaxy.

**ERJAK**

Bobthehero wrote:
For you maybe, but everything I heard so far, except for high strenght weapons doing more than a wound worth of damage, seems to be a kick in the face of the factions I play, so forgive me for have no enthusiasm for the game whatsoever.

how do you know what would be a kick to the faction you play? you have no idea how your faction plays, literally 0. The only people who DO know ANYTHING about how their army plays in 8th are space marines and they know 7 statlines without any context.

**Jbz`**

Dakka Wolf wrote:

I hope you weren't referring to the Bolter as one of the most common weapons in the galaxy.

One of.
Probably the 4th/5th most prevalent firearm. (Almost every AOTI faction has some access to them)

More common would obviously be Lasgun/Autogun/Shoota
maybe pulse and splinter rifles

(And three of them have similar penetrative power to boltguns)

**Traditio**

I'm excited about this. I personally would prefer for boltguns to have a -1 rending value (going down to -5 rending for AP 1), but I can see the value of getting rid of AP 5 and 6 altogether. Overall, this is a nerf to boltguns, but a strong buff to vehicles, including rhinos.

I'm eager to see what they do to missile launchers. I suspect that the profile will be 48 inch range, S 8, -2 rending and 1d6 damage for krak, and frag will likely be S 4, -0 rending and either 1d3 or 1d6 hits for frag.

**Draco765**

HaussVonHorne wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
IRL body armor is rated by the NIJ certification system. Soldiers and marines wear level IV rated ceramic plates that are designed to stop multiple 7.62x51 rounds, which are significantly more powerful than 7.62x39 rounds fired by your average AK. No EOD Michelin Man suit required. So, at least in our world, the average soldier does indeed wear body armor designed to exceed the threat of the average infantry round.

The "average" soldier in our world is not a U.S. or NATO soldier. There are many, many more underfunded, under-equipped soldiers than there are ones wearing modern body armor. Most soldiers (anyone with with a weapon and a cause to fight for/against) wear a cloth shirt and maybe a flak vest. This is kind of besides the point which is that most (likely 90% or more due to logistics and cost) of Imperial Guard wear just a flak vest which cannot hope to stop a bolt round. And orks might have a 1/4-1" metal plate on their chest which also won't stop a bolt round.

Lack of armor also makes them just a bit more flexible in their movement, thus they might have been clipped across the arm/leg instead of hit dead on in the head or chest, never assume that the armor save is only representing their clothing.