[KS] Rogue Heroes Rifts Boardgame-Project Cancelled May 13

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**Asterios**

WithintheDungeon wrote:
At this point, what Carmen is straddling is unknown beings the chair infront of his computer where he should be fielding questions, must have been thrown out the window the day before yesterday. I'm such a wimp... I hope he is ok.

well according to someone who allegedly has Carmen's ear I might be the reason he is not posting, according to someone who claims to be in contact with Carmen:

I was talking to Carmen in person at the time through messenger
trust me you got into his head he wont respond to anyone on that page at this point

but too be honest not sure what I said that got into his head which hasn't already been said by Kevin.

**GabrielV**

warboss wrote:

When you create/devote a youtube channel to espousing the beauty and elegance of the Palladium rules system like Carmen did,

What YouTube channel is this? I think I've seen it, but not sure.

**WithintheDungeon**

I lost track of that... Is there more than one someone? One a someone who has your ear and Carmen's ear... seriously that was confusing.

**Asterios**

WithintheDungeon wrote:
I lost track of that... Is there more than one someone? One a someone who has your ear and Carmen's ear... seriously that was confusing.

no its just one somebody.

**Theophony**

Asterios wrote:
Taarnak wrote:
Asterios wrote:
TwoGunBob wrote:
I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.

well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence

meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.

Which private information?

this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1811029

, i had heard about a suicide attempt, but had chalked it up to rumor and exaggeration. But this is too much

.

**TwoGunBob**

I didn't even consider that the license fee may be up a thte kickstarter conclusion and Kevin may well immediately dip his hands into the $100k for a renewal fee immediately. As if the taxes, overheads, Amazon/KS fee, having Kevin take another slice immediately would even further cause issues.

All the more reason to see a pie chart. How much goes back to Palladium as licensing fee as well? I think that the sting of failed Kickstarter would be much easier on Carmen once the ego wound subsides rather than trying to forge ahead with minimum backing and so many hands reaching into the kitty right after conclusion. I'm speculating of course but it's honestly because I'm worried about the guy. I'd hate to think his production budget was written on a cocktail napkin with Kevin Siembieda over a couple glasses of sweet tea, you know?

**Asterios**

TwoGunBob wrote:
I didn't even consider that the license fee may be up a thte kickstarter conclusion and Kevin may well immediately dip his hands into the $100k for a renewal fee immediately. As if the taxes, overheads, Amazon/KS fee, having Kevin take another slice immediately would even further cause issues.

All the more reason to see a pie chart. How much goes back to Palladium as licensing fee as well? I think that the sting of failed Kickstarter would be much easier on Carmen once the ego wound subsides rather than trying to forge ahead with minimum backing and so many hands reaching into the kitty right after conclusion. I'm speculating of course but it's honestly because I'm worried about the guy. I'd hate to think his production budget was written on a cocktail napkin with Kevin Siembieda over a couple glasses of sweet tea, you know?

thats why I said it would be better for Carmen if the project does not fund, true he will not get to see his dream come true, but better to not see it come true then to see it not come true with people banging down his door and being treated like Kevin is now a pariah.

**warboss**

GabrielV wrote:
warboss wrote:

When you create/devote a youtube channel to espousing the beauty and elegance of the Palladium rules system like Carmen did,

What YouTube channel is this? I think I've seen it, but not sure.

It's the same channel the ultrashort one shot game demo snippet is posted on.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Maloquinn

**JohnHwangDD**

ced1106 wrote:
Sining wrote:
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?

If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.

Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.

That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...

**warboss**

Does anyone have a link or pic to confirm this?

Arete 20 minutes ago

Just in case people don't know.

Ordering from Palladium books directly rewarded you with a card that allows Early Bird access to this kickstarter, even if all the early bird slots are taken.

Which seems strange to me, if Palladium has nothing to do with the project as claimed.

But.. if you really want the early bird access and didn't get in. you 'can' if you order a book from Palladium.

So, ordering direct from Palladium (a totally different company... we pinky swear!) gets you a discount and special access to this kickstarter? Is that on the promotional flyer (sp?) they sent out that was mentioned a week or two ago?

**Asterios**

warboss wrote:
Does anyone have a link or pic to confirm this?

Arete 20 minutes ago

Just in case people don't know.

Ordering from Palladium books directly rewarded you with a card that allows Early Bird access to this kickstarter, even if all the early bird slots are taken.

Which seems strange to me, if Palladium has nothing to do with the project as claimed.

But.. if you really want the early bird access and didn't get in. you 'can' if you order a book from Palladium.

So, ordering direct from Palladium (a totally different company... we pinky swear!) gets you a discount and special access to this kickstarter? Is that on the promotional flyer (sp?) they sent out that was mentioned a week or two ago?

if true they are trying to sidestep and/or avoid kickstarters fees, if evidence comes up Kickstarter might be interested in that since they don't like people sidestepping their fees.

**Alpharius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Sining wrote:
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?

If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.

Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.

That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...

Our community is too small to celebrate something like that.

Schadenfreude is not really ever a good thing!

Better that is doesn't fund!

**JohnHwangDD**

Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.

**GabrielV**

warboss wrote:

It's the same channel the ultrashort one shot game demo snippet is posted on.

I hadn't watched the game demo, but when you gave your description earlier that very channel was the first one I thought of.

Not that there are exactly hordes of Palladium centric YouTube channels, but that one stood out in my memory for all the wrong reasons.

**Theophony**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Sining wrote:
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?

If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.

Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.

That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...

Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.

**Taarnak**

Asterios wrote:
Taarnak wrote:
Asterios wrote:
TwoGunBob wrote:
I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.

well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence

meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.

Which private information?

this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1811029

That has nothing to do with what the Andrew guy did. If all the "personal information" released was that someone was a $1 backer... Well, that's not personal information at all. Name, address, phone number, etc. is personal information. gakky move sure, but not the release of personal information.

Not that these gak bags need any defending, but let's be at least intellectually honest in our criticisms.

~Eric

**Asterios**

Taarnak wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Taarnak wrote:
Asterios wrote:
TwoGunBob wrote:
I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.

well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence

meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.

Which private information?

this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1811029

That has nothing to do with what the Andrew guy did. If all the "personal information" released was that someone was a $1 backer... Well, that's not personal information at all. Name, address, phone number, etc. is personal information. gakky move sure, but not the release of personal information.

Not that these gak bags need any defending, but let's be at least intellectually honest in our criticisms.

~Eric

yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?

**warboss**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.

And that's why you're just a dollar robotech comment troll, John. If you were a real "palladium faithful*TM, you'd know that they'd collectively answer "Yes, thank you sir. Please may I have another!?!" and realize that your actions are in vain.

Duh!

**John Prins**

warboss wrote:

It's the same channel the ultrashort one shot game demo snippet is posted on.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Maloquinn

Yeah, that's kind of underwhelming. Three different range bands on the cyborg's weapon, each doing different levels of damage, and two different levels of critical hits. Equipment is on separate cards from the characters, which makes no sense given all Dead Boys will be wearing...Dead Boy armor and using Coalition guns. Way over-complicated for 'board game', which this is not. It's a grid based skirmish game with card mechanics (you can use cards to up your dodge roll) on top of opposed dice rolls.

No wonder they didn't post this sooner, this is bad.

**Taarnak**

Asterios wrote:

yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?

Whatever man. I seriously doubt they'll see it that way. I also seriously doubt you're capable of understanding why. Totally a dick move for sure, but I don't think it breaks the rules.

This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.

~Eric

**Stormonu**

warboss wrote:
TwoGunBob wrote:
I feel for Carmen because Palladium is forcing him into the kickstarter because licensing is expiring and he's unprepared. But also Carmen could have done research into ANY board game project to know what is expected rather than listen to Palladium's two decades out of touch advice.

When you create/devote a youtube channel to espousing the beauty and elegance of the Palladium rules system like Carmen did, you're not exactly particularly discerning nor keeping up with the current trends. If the pinnacle of RPG rules development in Carmen's mind (at least 5 years or so ago) was a cobbled together scifi unbalanced mess of a 1st ed D&D clone largely intact since Ronald Reagan's presidency, you shouldn't realistically expect him to be caught up in another genre either. He seems like he's making a pre-FFG/kickstarter era board game with less than the production value of a $20 D&D minis starter set from 2004ish (at least that was in color!). Part of it is indeed that he can't simply afford to do better without getting the funds first (an admittedly chicken and egg scenario) but the main part feels like despite apparently having the license from his dear friend Kevin for years that he's woefully unprepared. No gameplay video to start? No downloadable quick start demo rules and paper minis to show off the system? No BGG entry? No ready answers to questions that most all similar kickstarted games get asked? No apparent lessons learned from YOUR previous kickstarter experience in Robotech except how to disclaimer everything to the point where you could put out a 4 page pdf and consider the $100k kickstarter fulfilled? The only thing Kevin and Carmen seemed to have learned is how to further cover their asses in their current project (not that they need it given the lack of legal repercussions with Robotech... kiddie pool legal tsunami included). This campaign just smells of a quick attempt to crowdfund before the license expires and Palladium requires another paycheck to keep the dream alive.

Did Asterios take over your account for that post?

I think Carmen approached this with the belief he was going to be in the driver's seat, but relinquished it after the comments started rolling to ride shotgun. He was then quickly put in the back seat and thrown to the trunk by now. He should shortly be out and under the bus by the next PBWU. Want to take bets on how Kevin espouses how quickly "his" KS's fund and plead for fans to "help his friend" make "a dream come true"?

I do think the best thing the KS could do at this time would be to cancel, re-organize and try again - and put more distance between themselves and PB (moreso like the gulf between Pinnacle and PB). It really looks like Carmen had done the superficial work to put up the front page content, but apparently thought he could just sit back and (pleasantly) chat with backers as the money rolled itself in. The poor, hastly assembled mini pics graphic and the lack of a graphic AT ALL for the "revised" (and probably last-minute scramble to come up with) stretch goals tells me little to no thought went into anticipating how to properly market the KS - or what sort of questions and expectations the backers would have.

This thing really needs a do-over, but likely due to licensing concerns, it's going to have to struggle and hope it makes it across the goal line. Hoping Carmen luck with his business, but only if he wises up and puts more distance between himself and PB - he's got too many of their bad habits.

**Alpharius**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.

Still not cool.

There are a lot of people who aren't Palladium Super-Fan-Friends, regular Forum goers, etc. that would get swept up in something like that.

Again, better that it doesn't fund at all. Period.

**JohnHwangDD**

Theophony wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Sining wrote:
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?

If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.

Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.

That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...

Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.

That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.

KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.

**warboss**

Taarnak wrote:
This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.

~Eric

Apply as needed.

IIRC, Carmen before his mental breakdown and suicide attempt mentioned (on the palladium forums?) that the KS needed to be done now and couldn't wait. The subtext most read into that was that after working on it for years that the deadline was coming up and he'd have to repay Kevin for the rights for another set period. Again, that's conjecture based off of what he wrote (and was probably deleted in the Great Carmen Purge of the Palladium forums after his suicide attempt if that's where it was). Again, season as needed.

If true, he can't work on it for another year to polish it up without the funds (a catch 22). Of course, if that's true, his good friend, mentor, boss, and collaborator Kevin could always defer that payment or remove it entirely since he professes to believe in Carmen and the project so much in the weekly murmurs. Surely it'll be a smash hit, right!?

**JohnHwangDD**

warboss wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.

And that's why you're just a dollar robotech comment troll, John. If you were a real "palladium faithful*TM, you'd know that they'd collectively answer "Yes, thank you sir. Please may I have another!?!" and realize that your actions are in vain. Duh!

I've not put a penny into RH. Not a fething penny.

Alpharius wrote:
Still not cool.

There are a lot of people who aren't Palladium Super-Fan-Friends, regular Forum goers, etc. that would get swept up in something like that.

Again, better that it doesn't fund at all. Period.

Karma's a bitch.

If they're so stupid as to get caught up in this, despite the ample warnings in the Comments, they completely deserve it. No sympathy for fools.

No, better that the Palladium Faithful get a good heaping tablespoon of their own medicine. At this point, I would like nothing better than to see Palladium and Kevin bankrupt.

**warboss**

Stormonu wrote:

Did Asterios take over your account for that post?

If Rick has been posting like that as of late then he's much improved or a poor quality flash clone. The real Asterios is the guy that called me a deep cover palladium double agent/mole when I didn't cackle with glee about old man Kev getting run over by a car nor agree with his nuanced diagnosis and care plan for the injury for the subsequent injury based solely on his own childhood..

**Asterios**

Taarnak wrote:
Asterios wrote:

yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?

Whatever man. I seriously doubt they'll see it that way. I also seriously doubt you're capable of understanding why. Totally a dick move for sure, but I don't think it breaks the rules.

This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.

~Eric

actually it is covered under Kickstarters rules regarding Collaborator's and giving out any private info including pledge amount is a no no.

**Theophony**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Theophony wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Sining wrote:
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?

If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.

Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.

That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...

Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.

That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.

KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.

It's on their Kickstarter main page at the bottom that they will give refunds in full up to 14 days after close of the KS.

"We are happy to refund you within 14 days of the campaign’s end, fees included. After that, you are committed to backing the Rifts® Board Game. Please remember, you are backing a project, not buying a product. We are a start-up company, so once we have a successful Kickstarter with your help, those funds are committed to paying artists, sculptors, manufacturers, etc., and we will no longer be able to offer refunds.

This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."

**Asterios**

Theophony wrote:

This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."

makes one wonder what those applicable fees are?

warboss wrote:
Stormonu wrote:

Did Asterios take over your account for that post?

If Rick has been posting like that as of late then he's much improved or a poor quality flash clone. The real Asterios is the guy that called me a deep cover palladium double agent/mole when I didn't cackle with glee about old man Kev getting run over by a car nor agree with his nuanced diagnosis and care plan for the injury for the subsequent injury based solely on his own childhood..

guess again. don't think I had much to comment about Kevins running into a jeep other then Karma is a you know what.

**JohnHwangDD**

Theophony wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Theophony wrote:
Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.

That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.

KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.

It's on their Kickstarter main page at the bottom that they will give refunds in full up to 14 days after close of the KS.

"We are happy to refund you within 14 days of the campaign’s end, fees included.

This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."

You forget you're dealing with someone who put money into RRT, based on the things they had written on the RRT KS page...

But if honestly believe that, well, then, go ahead and put your money on the barrel! No risk, right? Palladium's word is ironclad, and you can take that to the bank.