Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have read a lot about hate towards how the Tau play. Some are legitimate issues and others are just the standard cries from those who don't like something and want everyone else to hate what they do.

The issue at hand seems to boil down to this: The Tau were designed to be out of balance. Bad at Melee and good at shooting. So with that design, GW did the only thing you can with a one dimensional design in a competitive environment = make them GREAT at all things shooty. As we all know what this created..............no, not a none competitive army design......no, not an over powered shooty army..............yes, an army that caused frustration and a lack of fun for both sides.

I reject that the Tau are OP, I do however feel that those who say it sucks to play against the Tau are correct. Their ability to ignore rules and take away the fun parts of your army is what they do. This isn't the Tau players fault. GW did this when they designed a one dimensional army.

So............what does GW do?

Do they go simple and add melee abilities to the Tau?
Do they nerf them into oblivion?
Do they add new abilities and rules that balance it out - is that even possible?
Do they realize that in a game world filled with melee and shooting balanced armies you can't maintain balance with an unbalanced army.....seems simple right

They add fancy auxiliaries that are supposed to do things that help Tau without giving them a major oneup in that area rather then adding more and more suits.

Da-Rock wrote:Do they nerf them into oblivion?

That is my proposal.

Nerf them into oblivion.

But not the oblivion of any of the nice daedric princes.

Not the shivering isles. Not sanguine's realms. Not the colored rooms.

Not even to Apocrypha.

Nerf them into Coldharbor.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They add fancy auxiliaries that are supposed to do things that help Tau without giving them a major oneup in that area rather then adding more and more suits.

I'd like to see expanded Kroot, Vespid, and Human allies.

 LordofHats wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They add fancy auxiliaries that are supposed to do things that help Tau without giving them a major oneup in that area rather then adding more and more suits.

I'd like to see expanded Kroot, Vespid, and Human allies.

Honestly? I kind of want to see some of the other background races they have as well. They have a psyker race that's really pissed off at humanity for trying to kill them off ages ago. Some Demiurg stuff.. Along with expanded Gue'vsa, Vespid, and Kroot.

I disagree with the OP. Tau are balanced versus a table cluttered with line of sight blocking terrain. If you are unable to close with Tau without being shot to death, you do not have enough of the right terrain on the table. That's on you, not army balance.

That said, and based on what we are seeing so far with the 8e leaks, the changes look promising for a more balanced Tau. Melee while melee will favor the charger, its implied that any further rounds are simultaneous while Tau might still retain an Overwatch advantage. And range is getting standardized to a bit more quantity over quality, which will harsh on the Monat player and pump up the Breachers.

As always, we shall see.

SJ

I'm looking forwad to whatever will become of the Tau in 8th and I agree that since their inception in 2001 they have been pushed more and more into the super-shooty one trick pony corner, which is something that I'd very much like to see remedied in the new ruleset.

I see a lot of potential in new auxiliary troops that provide new tactical options and, hopefully, faction-specific command abilities that go beyond making our shooting better.

Echoing the need for LOS terrain. if a tau player sets up the board and is waiting for a game and there are no large opaque buildings... nope not interested. If there is plenty of terrain then sure great sounds fun. That said marker lights I think are the biggest problem with tau, it lets them ignore far to many rules or guarantee hits (practically) and ignore cover which should be a HUGE part of the game was just plain bad design. I would prefer that their next book introduce a few bulky alien allies or expand croot and vespids to balance the army. I love the theory of tau, a fast hit and run army but hate that in practice that becomes a boring gunline.

 Traditio wrote:

Da-Rock wrote:Do they nerf them into oblivion?

That is my proposal.

Nerf them into oblivion.

But not the oblivion of any of the nice daedric princes.

Not the shivering isles. Not sanguine's realms. Not the colored rooms.

Not even to Apocrypha.

Nerf them into Coldharbor.

Why? Why not balance them properly, instead of losing customers and making an army that sells well worthless out of pure spite?

I'm here wainting for 8th edition to make my Kroot, Vespid and Breacher army viable.

My Taus like to play close and dirty

The problem with Tau is that they would be less broken if Allies didn't exist: Like you said the entire point of the Tau is that they absolutely suck in two out of the three aspects of the game (No Psychic Power, basically allergic to melee) to compensate for being horribly powerful in the third (shooting). This is a problem when they get paired up with an army who is their compliment; as in solves their problem and then some. Remove that and it removes some of the issues.

Another issue is that Tau bends the rules of not only their army, but that of other armies to conform to them. They can all shoot during the melee phase with overwatch basically as if it was another shooting phase. Failing that, a lot of their units are jetpack units that don't want to charge, effectively turning their melee phase into another movement phase. If they could do nothing during the melee phase and not steal the enemy's melee phase into their own shooting phase, they might be less frustrating to play against.

Given that they and the Necrons (the other shooting army) all have these problems, I get the feeling that GW, at the time, had no idea how to balance shooting given that the game system was originally heavily bias towards melee (not surprising, given that it was based off of Fantasy's ruleset).

Verviedi wrote:Why? Why not balance them properly, instead of losing customers and making an army that sells well worthless out of pure spite?

I'll confess:

My posting wasn't serious. I just saw the use of the word "oblivion" and decided to make an Elder Scrolls reference.

In all seriousness, though, I have high hopes that in 8th edition we are going to see a more "interactive," "fun" and "balanced" Tau, simply because of the fact that GW claims that they are doing heavy play testing, and they are listening to community feed back.

So I don't really know how I'd balance the Tau, but I do have confidence that GW will figure something out.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Given that they and the Necrons (the other shooting army) all have these problems, I get the feeling that GW, at the time, had no idea how to balance shooting given that the game system was originally heavily bias towards melee (not surprising, given that it was based off of Fantasy's ruleset).

Did you just forget about the Guard?

The first problem is exactly what you mentioned, in that the tau ignore so much.

The second problem is that farsight enclaves should have never existed. There should never be an army full of those kinds of units. They are specialist units, and should be used in conjunction with a standard force. What they are not, are a force of their own. Farsight enclaves are a huge problem as the only tau players I have ever seen only use suits. IMO it just isn't really 40k either. If you want all suits fighting against each other there are other universes out there.

I want to see tau use a mixture of fire warriors, skimmers, suits, and auxiliaries.

Basically, here's what it comes down to for me:

I am fine with Tau being amazing at shooting and terrible at melee.

I am not fine with Tau being able to ignore key parts of the game like line of sight, the movement phase, etc.

I'm also not fine with losing to Tau simply because of the models that they put on the table.

However, I also would not be fine with winning against Tau simply because it's a Tau army.

I want both of us to play the game, and when I beat you, I want it to be because I'm a better player than you. Not because of the models that are on the table.

 Traditio wrote:

Da-Rock wrote:Do they nerf them into oblivion?

That is my proposal.

Nerf them into oblivion.

But not the oblivion of any of the nice daedric princes.

Not the shivering isles. Not sanguine's realms. Not the colored rooms.

Not even to Apocrypha.

Nerf them into Coldharbor.

Coldharbor? Man...that's some real anger :-)

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Echoing the need for LOS terrain. if a tau player sets up the board and is waiting for a game and there are no large opaque buildings... nope not interested. If there is plenty of terrain then sure great sounds fun. That said marker lights I think are the biggest problem with tau, it lets them ignore far to many rules or guarantee hits (practically) and ignore cover which should be a HUGE part of the game was just plain bad design. I would prefer that their next book introduce a few bulky alien allies or expand croot and vespids to balance the army. I love the theory of tau, a fast hit and run army but hate that in practice that becomes a boring gunline.

Surrender without rolling a dice, bet that works a treat in tournaments.

Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

Dakka Wolf wrote:Surrender without rolling a dice, bet that works a treat in tournaments.

Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

In AoS, cover just adds +1 to all saves. So a 3+ armor save becomes a 2+ save.

I hate tau, I really do. But they aren't going anywhere so I'll at least try to provide a constructive criticism.

The main reason I find Tau poorly designed is that they rely completely on the shooting phase for their damage output. This is especially troublesome in a game designed (supposedly) to balance both shooting and assault. If you play in any kind of competitive environment, you know that in order to win you basically need to shoot the enemy off the table before they can touch you. This creates a very binary game between the player and opponent, but realistically what other choice do Tau players have?

The few melee options actually available to the Tau don't really fit in with the Tau aesthetic either. I'm pretty certain most Tau players play them because they are streamlined, futuristic looking (for 40K) and have tonnes of cool anime style gundam suits. This is actually the other reason I dislike Tau as well. Their futuristic look doesn't fit into a Fantasy setting IMO (no 40K is not sci-fi. It's fantasy in space). But things like kroot look horribly out of place with the rest of the line.

I personally would like to see this issue solved in two different ways.

1) add some kind Melee style Crisis Suits. They probably have the technology to enhance their fighting abilities.
2) add some more Xenos Auxiliaries that excel in melee, and make them look cool. Not like Kroot.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I disagree with the OP. Tau are balanced versus a table cluttered with line of sight blocking terrain. If you are unable to close with Tau without being shot to death, you do not have enough of the right terrain on the table. That's on you, not army balance.

That said, and based on what we are seeing so far with the 8e leaks, the changes look promising for a more balanced Tau. Melee while melee will favor the charger, its implied that any further rounds are simultaneous while Tau might still retain an Overwatch advantage. And range is getting standardized to a bit more quantity over quality, which will harsh on the Monat player and pump up the Breachers.

As always, we shall see.

SJ

I see what you are saying and I agree in the point you are making about using terrain to balance it out. I meant more about the fact that Tau are unbalanced more than most, (not all). Orks are not good at shooting, but their mass fire can do some work, (so they are closer to balanced). I can't see many scenarios where the Tau can do some work in melee. As you said, 8th looks like it may be better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I'm here wainting for 8th edition to make my Kroot, Vespid and Breacher army viable.

My Taus like to play close and dirty

Spoiler:

PD: Nobody seems to care about Khorne armies being pure meele, so is totally possible to have a pure shooting faction like Tau to be funny and engaging and balanced. But it requires balance.

Good point about Korne - they are definitely the Ying to the Tau Yang.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


I personally would like to see this issue solved in two different ways.

1) add some kind Melee style Crisis Suits. They probably have the technology to enhance their fighting abilities.
2) add some more Xenos Auxiliaries that excel in melee, and make them look cool. Not like Kroot.

Back when Tau were released, it was specifically the contrast between the high tech fire caste units and the Kroot that sold me on the faction. No melee Crisis, tyvm.

Playing Nids vs Tau, the biggest thing that always got me was jet pack... They just keep moving further and further away from you, taking pot shots

 Sledgehammer wrote:


I want to see tau use a mixture of fire warriors, skimmers, suits, and auxiliaries.

THIS!

 Verviedi wrote:

Why? Why not balance them properly, instead of losing customers and making an army that sells well worthless out of pure spite?

I am all in favor of this.

Just remember that to balance them properly, they need massive nerfs in shooting and a minor buff to cc.

Or just point cost everything appropriately. A fire warrior is halfway between a guardsman and marine in armor and cost, yet their rifle is much, much stronger than either. If they were costed appropriately, their gun would be an 18" bolter or a 30" lasgun. Str 5 and 30" at 4pts less than a marine is a joke.

I am looking forward to 8e dropping an anvil on their heads.

Back when Tau were released, it was specifically the contrast between the high tech fire caste units and the Kroot that sold me on the faction. No melee Crisis, tyvm.

Yea, but Kroot are still there. I didn't say that they should be removed. I just want more things added. So you can still enjoy your Kroot, and others can enjoy additional units that may appeal to them as well.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I hate tau, I really do. But they aren't going anywhere so I'll at least try to provide a constructive criticism.

The main reason I find Tau poorly designed is that they rely completely on the shooting phase for their damage output. This is especially troublesome in a game designed (supposedly) to balance both shooting and assault. If you play in any kind of competitive environment, you know that in order to win you basically need to shoot the enemy off the table before they can touch you. This creates a very binary game between the player and opponent, but realistically what other choice do Tau players have?

I have to disagree with you. I don't see a problem with an army that completely relies on the shooting phase for their damage output. I think that pure, or close to pure, gun lines should be a viable option, and it shouldn't just be an option for Tau. It also should be an option for armies like Imperial Guard and Imperial Fists (space marines).

The fact that Tau are shooty isn't the problem. The problem is that they can ignore line of sight, ignore cover and have units that are practically unkillable.

If you want to do a gunline, then that should be a viable option. But hiding should be a viable counter-measure.

The Tau army shouldn't be a point and click army. If you want to shoot my models, then you should actually have to move yours.

I'm in favor of removing barrage and ignore LoS from the game entirely.

The tau player shouldn't be a point and click army. If you want to shoot my models, then you should actually have to move yours.

Well we definitely agree on this point.

I personally don't find it fun trying to chase down an enemy all game that just keeps kiting me around.

It seems that Tau ignore a very large portion of the game like assault, psykers, cover...

Seems like Tau could do with some more dimensions added to their game. Fill out that roster a bit.

A large issue currently is the godly amount of firepower some armies can put out. It's insane. We'll see what happens next edition.

Da-Rock wrote:So............what does GW do?

Do they go simple and add melee abilities to the Tau?
Do they nerf them into oblivion?
Do they add new abilities and rules that balance it out - is that even possible?
Do they realize that in a game world filled with melee and shooting balanced armies you can't maintain balance with an unbalanced army.....seems simple right

We shall see in 8th. Your post came a bit late to fix Tau. In 1-2 months we'll know how they stand in the new edition.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They add fancy auxiliaries that are supposed to do things that help Tau without giving them a major oneup in that area rather then adding more and more suits.

I'd like to see expanded Kroot, Vespid, and Human allies.

Honestly? I kind of want to see some of the other background races they have as well. They have a psyker race that's really pissed off at humanity for trying to kill them off ages ago. Some Demiurg stuff.. Along with expanded Gue'vsa, Vespid, and Kroot.

I agree! Auxiliaries are very cool but totally underrepresented. But I disagree about using Nicassor. The Imperium would send many more forces against Tau if they knew these guys are helping the blueberries. It's better letting them being kept in secret.

Verviedi wrote:
Why? Why not balance them properly, instead of losing customers and making an army that sells well worthless out of pure spite?

Don't take any posts from him seriously.

Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

PD: Nobody seems to care about Khorne armies being pure meele, so is totally possible to have a pure shooting faction like Tau to be funny and engaging and balanced. But it requires balance.

Because melee is COOL. Melee is MANLY. Melee is POWER. Melee is EDGY. Melee is GRIMDARK!

Bobthehero wrote:Did you just forget about the Guard?

Dakka Wolf wrote:
Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

It's already confirmed that cover will be an armour mod. It won't effect To Hit at all.

Brutus_Apex wrote:I personally would like to see this issue solved in two different ways.

1) add some kind Melee style Crisis Suits. They probably have the technology to enhance their fighting abilities.
2) add some more Xenos Auxiliaries that excel in melee, and make them look cool. Not like Kroot.

I like your suggestions, but 1) will meet lore lovers that will hate that Tau now can do melee (remember when the Taunar was released? "omg, Tau use aircraft to shoot down titans! Unfluffy thing!1!1!1eleven")

I too find Kroot design meh, and vespid even uglier. Now, Tarellian Dog-Soldiers would be lovely!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Back when Tau were released, it was specifically the contrast between the high tech fire caste units and the Kroot that sold me on the faction. No melee Crisis, tyvm.

Yea, but Kroot are still there. I didn't say that they should be removed. I just want more things added. So you can still enjoy your Kroot, and others can enjoy additional units that may appeal to them as well.

Well, we do have Farsight for those people

Jokes aside, I don't think more units is the way to go. I'd rather have a core of units which are balanced in a way that makes them all attractive choices for different reasons. Melee suits migh very well become a thing in the new edition, but I'd rather see all the subpar choices fixed first before adding new stuff.

EDIT