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 Traditio wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:Surrender without rolling a dice, bet that works a treat in tournaments.

Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

In AoS, cover just adds +1 to all saves. So a 3+ armor save becomes a 2+ save.

Losing the cover save wasn't the issue, not being able to take any response against Markerlights was the biggest problem. In earlier 40k editions To-Hit rolls were modified by cover, in the current 7th edition some armies have passive BS modifiers, some have Psychic ones. That's what I'm hoping for - using markerlights to ignore core rules is a powerful ability - especially when there is no response to them, cover making it difficult to hit with markerlights in the first place would be a blessing. Personally I think during 7th edition units should have been able to take an Initiative or Leadership or some kind of test against Markerlights to see if they're smart enough to notice them and try to duck away from them.

Tau have always been gak at melee and have always predominantly been ranged based, but the army wasn't overpowered pre 6th edition (well, Fish of Fury, but that has more to do with a rules exploit then the specific army design).

Tau only really became problematic with the advent of the Riptide- and the Riptide is really representative of how the philosophy behind the army was corrupted. The Riptide has too much going on at once, and that eventually became endemic throughout the army.

- Almost every gun on the Riptide has an over 48'' threat range, so why does it need to also be one of the fastest units in the game?
- It's one of the fastest units in the game and also outranges about 75% of all weapons in the game, so why does it also need to be incredibly durable?
- It has incredible volume of fire, so why does it also have to have high strength AND low AP?

etc.

The Tau went from "being really good at shooting" to "being really good at absolutely killing everything on the board while also being super mobile and tough". No one army should be able to hop across the board, AND ignore terrain, AND ignore cover, AND ignore armor values, AND murder hordes, AND murder vehicles, AND outrange everybody else, AND be tough as nails once someone manages to actually get within range to attack you. It's silly.

The Tau were fine when they were a predominantly immobile army, with mid-range volume of fire being their bread and butter and the majority of their anti-armor being restricted to the 12-24'' bracket in Crisis Suits.

Edit- Tau aren't the only ones with this problem btw- Eldar are broken for the same reason. Their original design philosophy was balanced around hitting hard and fast with mid-range firepower and assaults, but crumpling from a stiff breeze. This philosophy kept them in check, and then one day "DUDE WRAITHKNIGHTS LAWL", yet another hyper-durable super-fast unit that also hits like a truck and can do so from across the board. "DUDE JETBIKES LAWL", yet another unit that is extremely fast, hits extremely hard but is also tough due to having a 3+/4++.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tau have always been gak at melee and have always predominantly been ranged based, but the army wasn't overpowered pre 6th edition (well, Fish of Fury, but that has more to do with a rules exploit then the specific army design).

Tau only really became problematic with the advent of the Riptide- and the Riptide is really representative of how the philosophy behind the army was corrupted. The Riptide has too much going on at once, and that eventually became endemic throughout the army.

- Almost every gun on the Riptide has an over 48'' threat range, so why does it need to also be one of the fastest units in the game?
- It's one of the fastest units in the game and also outranges about 75% of all weapons in the game, so why does it also need to be incredibly durable?
- It has incredible volume of fire, so why does it also have to have high strength AND low AP?

etc.

The Tau went from "being really good at shooting" to "being really good at absolutely killing everything on the board while also being super mobile and tough". No one army should be able to hop across the board, AND ignore terrain, AND ignore cover, AND ignore armor values, AND murder hordes, AND murder vehicles, AND outrange everybody else, AND be tough as nails once someone manages to actually get within range to attack you. It's silly.

The Tau were fine when they were a predominantly immobile army, with mid-range volume of fire being their bread and butter and the majority of their anti-armor being restricted to the 12-24'' bracket in Crisis Suits.

Edit- Tau aren't the only ones with this problem btw- Eldar are broken for the same reason. Their original design philosophy was balanced around hitting hard and fast with mid-range firepower and assaults, but crumpling from a stiff breeze. This philosophy kept them in check, and then one day "DUDE WRAITHKNIGHTS LAWL", yet another hyper-durable super-fast unit that also hits like a truck and can do so from across the board. "DUDE JETBIKES LAWL", yet another unit that is extremely fast, hits extremely hard but is also tough due to having a 3+/4++.

I agree, the whole monster-mash type lists of stormsurges and riptides just got out of hand. I get that giant robots are cool, but GW went a bit overboard. And who can blame them when so many people just ate it up without question. Even having a detachment tax isn't enough when its only 140 points for an ethereal and 2 5-man firewarrior squads. They really need to fix the compulsory units for the new edition, but as much as the 14 detachments in 8th sounds like a good thing, it also probably leaves an opportunity for cheesy lists to still exist.

I would LOVE to fight a tau army with breachers in devilfishes, maybe some piranhas and a squad of hammerheads. But I haven't met a single tau player who would sacrifice his precious robots for something different. Is that also GW's fault?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tau have always been gak at melee and have always predominantly been ranged based, but the army wasn't overpowered pre 6th edition (well, Fish of Fury, but that has more to do with a rules exploit then the specific army design).

Tau only really became problematic with the advent of the Riptide- and the Riptide is really representative of how the philosophy behind the army was corrupted. The Riptide has too much going on at once, and that eventually became endemic throughout the army.

- Almost every gun on the Riptide has an over 48'' threat range, so why does it need to also be one of the fastest units in the game?
- It's one of the fastest units in the game and also outranges about 75% of all weapons in the game, so why does it also need to be incredibly durable?
- It has incredible volume of fire, so why does it also have to have high strength AND low AP?

etc.

The Tau went from "being really good at shooting" to "being really good at absolutely killing everything on the board while also being super mobile and tough". No one army should be able to hop across the board, AND ignore terrain, AND ignore cover, AND ignore armor values, AND murder hordes, AND murder vehicles, AND outrange everybody else, AND be tough as nails once someone manages to actually get within range to attack you. It's silly.

The Tau were fine when they were a predominantly immobile army, with mid-range volume of fire being their bread and butter and the majority of their anti-armor being restricted to the 12-24'' bracket in Crisis Suits.

Edit- Tau aren't the only ones with this problem btw- Eldar are broken for the same reason. Their original design philosophy was balanced around hitting hard and fast with mid-range firepower and assaults, but crumpling from a stiff breeze. This philosophy kept them in check, and then one day "DUDE WRAITHKNIGHTS LAWL", yet another hyper-durable super-fast unit that also hits like a truck and can do so from across the board. "DUDE JETBIKES LAWL", yet another unit that is extremely fast, hits extremely hard but is also tough due to having a 3+/4++.

QFT

I hope GW doesn't listen to the posters in here for sure. Or else my best gun will be 3 inches str 2 ap nothing single one shot per game and a stat line fof 2's in everything except wounds. Then after the game the Tau players models self destruct.

Balance is good when it's fair, but there is such a huge hate and bias against Tau in the community I have to be skeptical. To the others it's only balanced when they can beat Tau. That seems to be the general message.

 Gamgee wrote:
I hope GW doesn't listen to the posters in here for sure. Or else my best gun will be 3 inches str 2 ap nothing single one shot per game and a stat line fof 2's in everything except wounds. Then after the game the Tau players models self destruct.

Balance is good when it's fair, but there is such a huge hate and bias against Tau in the community I have to be skeptical. To the others it's only balanced when they can beat Tau. That seems to be the general message.

"It's only balanced when they can beat Tau"?

As opposed to not being able to beat Tau?

Do you think that Tau should be unbeatable?

 Gamgee wrote:
I hope GW doesn't listen to the posters in here for sure. Or else my best gun will be 3 inches str 2 ap nothing single one shot per game and a stat line fof 2's in everything except wounds. Then after the game the Tau players models self destruct.

Balance is good when it's fair, but there is such a huge hate and bias against Tau in the community I have to be skeptical. To the others it's only balanced when they can beat Tau. That seems to be the general message.

Not only are you strawmanning massively hard but absolutely nothing you've said can even be considered much of an argument. As expected.

 Gamgee wrote:
I hope GW doesn't listen to the posters in here for sure. Or else my best gun will be 3 inches str 2 ap nothing single one shot per game and a stat line fof 2's in everything except wounds. Then after the game the Tau players models self destruct.

Balance is good when it's fair, but there is such a huge hate and bias against Tau in the community I have to be skeptical. To the others it's only balanced when they can beat Tau. That seems to be the general message.

I'd feel bad for my FLGS owner, self-destructing Tau players sounds messy.
The bias against Tau is because even though they're the bottom of the top tier armies there are armies that don't have a snowflake's chance against them no matter how they build or roll - assuming they get to roll anything. Astra Militarum, Blood Angels, Deathwatch and Orks come to mind.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:Surrender without rolling a dice, bet that works a treat in tournaments.

Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

In AoS, cover just adds +1 to all saves. So a 3+ armor save becomes a 2+ save.

Losing the cover save wasn't the issue, not being able to take any response against Markerlights was the biggest problem. In earlier 40k editions To-Hit rolls were modified by cover, in the current 7th edition some armies have passive BS modifiers, some have Psychic ones. That's what I'm hoping for - using markerlights to ignore core rules is a powerful ability - especially when there is no response to them, cover making it difficult to hit with markerlights in the first place would be a blessing. Personally I think during 7th edition units should have been able to take an Initiative or Leadership or some kind of test against Markerlights to see if they're smart enough to notice them and try to duck away from them.

How are marker lights inherently any more problematic than IG orders?

If anything, you don't have to forgo shooting with relatively expensive units to use them.

In fact, how are marker lights any more problematic than psykers using their psychic powers to buff other units?

Personally, I don't have a problem with marker lights per se. I do have a problem with marker lights + riptides or marker lights + storm surges.

But then the problem isn't the marker lights, is it?

Definitely not. I have said on this very forum I would be fine with Riptide and Stormsurge nerfs. If the stuff that is even more powerful than those actually dominating the ITC meta are toned down as well and brought into balance. This would be Eldar but more importantly super friends space marines and deathstars. Tau have only gotten into the top 15 at a major ITC tournament in just over two years now. It was this year. Fun fact DE made 9th place two spots behind the Tau proud of that dude.

Currently space marine death stars and death stars in general are the most broken lists. Way stronger than anything the Tau can do. Chaos deamons are insane too.

Will the poster boys be balanced as fairly as the Tau?

 Gamgee wrote:
Definitely not. I have said on this very forum I would be fine with Riptide and Stormsurge nerfs. If the stuff that is even more powerful than those actually dominating the ITC meta are toned down as well and brought into balance. This would be Eldar but more importantly super friends space marines and deathstars. Tau have only gotten into the top 15 at a major ITC tournament in just over two years now. It was this year. Fun fact DE made 9th place two spots behind the Tau proud of that dude.

Currently space marine death stars and death stars in general are the most broken lists. Way stronger than anything the Tau can do.

Will the poster boys be balanced as fairly as the Tau?

It's my understanding that, in 8th edition, the designers are specifically trying to kill death stars.

Then I suppose that I'm one of the few Tau players that really don't like mecas that much. Yeah, Crisis suits are cool, and I love my stealth suits. But my Tau-love goes to my Tanks and vehicles like the Piranha.

Oh, my lovely Piranhas @.@ that models is so beautiful.

That is great and from what I've seen they are taking strides to do so. However these super powered space marine and eldar lists are more symptomatic of a larger problem. Favouritism. What will they do to combat internal corruption and favouritism? The old boys club so to speak?

If this was just GW they would be a little more impartial, but they are taking opinions from a wide array of big tournament organizers as well as the frontline crew as well as other major tournamnets. Some of these folks are less impartial.

As I said I hope everything is perfectly balanced and we can all get along fine and have equal chances of winning and where a players skill wins through the day. However even AoS isn't perfectly balanced and while it's a better than average game in terms of balance the fact is some factions will be left behind mathematically. Power creep will set in as usual.

Tau are easily the faction with the most bias against them at all levels of the hobby. I really hope all the playtesters and GW are aware of this.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Given that they and the Necrons (the other shooting army) all have these problems, I get the feeling that GW, at the time, had no idea how to balance shooting given that the game system was originally heavily bias towards melee (not surprising, given that it was based off of Fantasy's ruleset).

Spoiler:

Did you just forget about the Guard?

Yeah I legit did.

Guard actually has all the fun parts of a Shooty army. Maybe they took all of the fun stuff and the other two had to make due with whatever gimmick the designers could think up without treading on the Guard's toes.

Then again the Guard were either Really Good (See 5th edition) or Really bad (see every other edition), so my point still stands in that GW doesn't know how to balance shooty.

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:Surrender without rolling a dice, bet that works a treat in tournaments.

Here's hoping cover becomes a To-Hit modifier rather than a save. Auto include 4+ to hit Markerlights quickly become very situational 'Weapons'.

In AoS, cover just adds +1 to all saves. So a 3+ armor save becomes a 2+ save.

Losing the cover save wasn't the issue, not being able to take any response against Markerlights was the biggest problem. In earlier 40k editions To-Hit rolls were modified by cover, in the current 7th edition some armies have passive BS modifiers, some have Psychic ones. That's what I'm hoping for - using markerlights to ignore core rules is a powerful ability - especially when there is no response to them, cover making it difficult to hit with markerlights in the first place would be a blessing. Personally I think during 7th edition units should have been able to take an Initiative or Leadership or some kind of test against Markerlights to see if they're smart enough to notice them and try to duck away from them.

How are marker lights inherently any more problematic than IG orders?

If anything, you don't have to forgo shooting with relatively expensive units to use them.

In fact, how are marker lights any more problematic than psykers using their psychic powers to buff other units?

Personally, I don't have a problem with marker lights per se. I do have a problem with marker lights + riptides or marker lights + storm surges.

But then the problem isn't the marker lights, is it?

Because Astra Militarum units that benefit from Orders are expensive, slow moving and easily destroyed - oh and they go alright without Orders.

Psykers are constantly a source of complaint, do you just forget when Deathstars are complained about? On top of that you have that wonderful moment when Psychic powers are thwarted, either by Deny the Witch or the arrival of Sisters of Silence or the Culexus Assassin - what negates shooting?

Gamgee wrote:Tau are easily the faction with the most bias against them at all levels of the hobby. I really hope all the playtesters and GW are aware of this.

Agreed.

While at some level I would absolutely love to see Tau players whining and complaining about how underpowered their riptides and stormsurges are, and how they can't win a single game no matter how bad their opponent is at the game...

...That's just not good game design.

Thank you for understanding Tradtitio. Sometimes it is tempting to try and make the Tau so powerful I get an extra feasting of tears. Still that wouldn't be good for the hobby.

 Traditio wrote:

Da-Rock wrote:Do they nerf them into oblivion?

That is my proposal.

Nerf them into oblivion.

But not the oblivion of any of the nice daedric princes.

Not the shivering isles. Not sanguine's realms. Not the colored rooms.

Not even to Apocrypha.

Nerf them into Coldharbor.

Sounds like someone's salty about losing to Tau. Tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers didn't work, huh?

To answer the OP's question, I'm not sure the Tau really need tweaking. They are what they are. I play Tau, and I have played my other armies against Tau plenty of times, and it was never too badly unfun for either player. Just take it as a challenge and see what you can do to beat them. If you repeatedly have trouble with them, try analyzing your list and strategy, and perhaps factor a possible Tau matchup into your list building. Keep in mind what they can do with those Markerlights, and don't just rely on hugging cover for protection, as that cover might do you no good. OP, as for your ideas, I'll answer them specifically as best I can:

Do they go simple and add melee abilites to the Tau?

I think this would take away from their flavor as an army. They are a shooting-focused army that is meant to die if they get stuck in melee, and this is part of what makes them unique, as most other armies can do melee okay. Kroot are the only melee-competent Tau unit (and Aun'shi, but who takes him?), and even they aren't taken for their combat prowess.

Do they nerf them into oblivion?

No, just no. Nerfing an army into oblivion is not a solution. Perhaps small tweaks here and there, such as toning down the Riptide Wing formation and perhaps Riptides in general, could work, but an army-wide nerf? That would set a bad precedent and could lead to other armies that aren't really OP at all getting hit with the nerf bat when someone complains about them. Even Eldar don't deserve an army-wide nerf, and they've got some pretty crazy stuff in their codex.

Do they add new abilities and rules that balance it out - is that even possible?

I'm not sure it is possible. 8th edition changes may alter the way the Tau play, but I would expect them to remain fundamentally the same. I'm not sure adding new stuff would help with the "unfun" issue, as it might just create new Tau strategies that are even more "unfun" to face.

Do they realize that in a game world filled with melee and shooting balanced armies you can't maintain balance with an unbalanced army.....seems simple right

I'm not sure this is true. There are armies that are mostly melee-focused (Orks, Khorne Daemonkin, to a lesser extend Space Wolves), and there are armies that are mainly strong in the Psychic phase (Tzeentch Daemons). Having some armies be one-dimensional is not inherently bad. In fact, it leads to some very interesting challenges for players on both sides in games. I'm not convinced that they can't be balanced; indeed, it is an issue with the 7th edition rules that makes it where shooting armies like Tau are so much stronger than melee armies like Orks. The rules favor shooting currently, which I hope will change with the switch to 8th edition.

My 2 cents - hope that helps!

ZergSmasher wrote:Sounds like someone's salty about losing to Tau. Tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers didn't work, huh?

If 8th drops and tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers start wrecking everything, you have no idea just how much delight I will take in it.

 Traditio wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote:Sounds like someone's salty about losing to Tau. Tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers didn't work, huh?

If 8th drops and tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers start wrecking everything, you have no idea just how much delight I will take in it.

Y'know, I wouldn't be too upset about that myself, really.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote:Sounds like someone's salty about losing to Tau. Tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers didn't work, huh?

If 8th drops and tactical marines with flamers and missile launchers start wrecking everything, you have no idea just how much delight I will take in it.

Y'know, I wouldn't be too upset about that myself, really.

I'm really excited about what we know so far. I think we'll end up with a missile launcher with S8 and 1d6 damage for krak and S4 and 1d3 hits for frag.

Missile launchers are going to be very much a viable option, I think.

And flamers already look pretty good with the 1d6 hits output.

 Traditio wrote:
How are marker lights inherently any more problematic than IG orders?

the only units in the entire Imperial Guard codex that can use orders are guardsmen- there are no AP2 pie-plates with 48” range that get to also ignore cover due to orders. That, is why orders are fine, and marker lights are not.

 Don Savik wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tau have always been gak at melee and have always predominantly been ranged based, but the army wasn't overpowered pre 6th edition (well, Fish of Fury, but that has more to do with a rules exploit then the specific army design).

Tau only really became problematic with the advent of the Riptide- and the Riptide is really representative of how the philosophy behind the army was corrupted. The Riptide has too much going on at once, and that eventually became endemic throughout the army.

- Almost every gun on the Riptide has an over 48'' threat range, so why does it need to also be one of the fastest units in the game?
- It's one of the fastest units in the game and also outranges about 75% of all weapons in the game, so why does it also need to be incredibly durable?
- It has incredible volume of fire, so why does it also have to have high strength AND low AP?

etc.

The Tau went from "being really good at shooting" to "being really good at absolutely killing everything on the board while also being super mobile and tough". No one army should be able to hop across the board, AND ignore terrain, AND ignore cover, AND ignore armor values, AND murder hordes, AND murder vehicles, AND outrange everybody else, AND be tough as nails once someone manages to actually get within range to attack you. It's silly.

The Tau were fine when they were a predominantly immobile army, with mid-range volume of fire being their bread and butter and the majority of their anti-armor being restricted to the 12-24'' bracket in Crisis Suits.

Edit- Tau aren't the only ones with this problem btw- Eldar are broken for the same reason. Their original design philosophy was balanced around hitting hard and fast with mid-range firepower and assaults, but crumpling from a stiff breeze. This philosophy kept them in check, and then one day "DUDE WRAITHKNIGHTS LAWL", yet another hyper-durable super-fast unit that also hits like a truck and can do so from across the board. "DUDE JETBIKES LAWL", yet another unit that is extremely fast, hits extremely hard but is also tough due to having a 3+/4++.

I agree, the whole monster-mash type lists of stormsurges and riptides just got out of hand. I get that giant robots are cool, but GW went a bit overboard. And who can blame them when so many people just ate it up without question. Even having a detachment tax isn't enough when its only 140 points for an ethereal and 2 5-man firewarrior squads. They really need to fix the compulsory units for the new edition, but as much as the 14 detachments in 8th sounds like a good thing, it also probably leaves an opportunity for cheesy lists to still exist.

I would LOVE to fight a tau army with breachers in devilfishes, maybe some piranhas and a squad of hammerheads. But I haven't met a single tau player who would sacrifice his precious robots for something different. Is that also GW's fault?

Come to Phoenix. I'll gladly set up my 'mech Tau across from you. I don't even own a Stormsurge, only have one Riptide, and I routinely run two full Breacher squads in D-Fish, backed by squads of Crisis, Broadsides and Hammerheads. No Piranha's tho, as I cannot stand the model. Sorry.

Tau got out of hand in 6th with the Riptide, then again in 7th with the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge. However, shooting, JSJ, no psykers, no melee (outside of kroot, and lets face it, they're no better than FW in CC) have -always- been their thing. But, when the main rules essentially penalized CC, then it became Tau's game. I think the Riptide is an absolutely awesome model, but I only play it after an opponent has said they're willing to deal with it. Same with my Ghostkeels, tho people don't seem to mind them as much (probably because they don't throw S8 AP2 pie plates around the board with relative impunity). The formation rules turned this up to 11. Many things were given to Tau that they didn't need, and were obviously only introduced to sell models. The Riptide-wing is blatant money grab formation. There is no reason to ever field more than one Riptide in a game (letting them be taken in squads of three is a massive mistake as well), much less giving them boosts that all but guarantee they have a 3++ every turn.

I want Tau to be re-balanced too. Riptides should be base 300pts, the IA should be at least a 25pt upgrade. Ghostkeels should be about 50-75pts more expensive, and, imo, the Stormsurge should just go away. BUT - I want other people to realize that not every Tau player is a WAAC tourney cheese monger, and actually like the army for the aesthetic it gives, whether they think it fits in 40k or not, and don't just bring the hammer down on the army and destroy it. It's unfortunate that GW made bad rules and the power gamers capitalized on it, but don't hate an army that other people enjoy, because Riptide-Wing touched you in a bad place. Personally, I hate orks. HATE. THEM. Everything about them - I think they look stupid, I think their fluff is , and I can't believe that people actually like them. But, I would never advocate a nerf-bat to them (GW has accomplished worse than I could ever think of for them, anyway) simply because they were a powerhouse army for an edition. Remember that while you may have been beaten bloody by power gamers exploiting bad rules for an army, there are people that love the army for what it is, and don't stomp the local meta into the dirt.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Tau only really became problematic with the advent of the Riptide- and the Riptide is really representative of how the philosophy behind the army was corrupted. The Riptide has too much going on at once, and that eventually became endemic throughout the army.

- Almost every gun on the Riptide has an over 48'' threat range, so why does it need to also be one of the fastest units in the game?
- It's one of the fastest units in the game and also outranges about 75% of all weapons in the game, so why does it also need to be incredibly durable?
- It has incredible volume of fire, so why does it also have to have high strength AND low AP?

I am looking at my codex and of all of the guns on a riptide, only the IA has a range of greater than 48".
The Burst Cannon is 36" the SMS is 24" as is the Plasma Rifle, and the Fusion Blaster is 18". Are you thinking of the Stormsurge's weapons? I will agree it is fast especially when you nova charge the jet pack. But you can still role four ones or something silly like that, which has happened to me a couple of times.

36" is still massive... and 24" is good considering you can move after shooting

This is exactly how I feel about Tau as an army. They are miserably one-dimensional. They are pigeon-holed into one single phase, shooting. Were their shooting nerfed at all the army would be utter trash. To be successful they have to excel at shooting to the point of ignoring the basic rules of 40k and simply removing entire phases (no assault phase if nothing survives overwatch) from your opponent's turn to have a chance. With no other options they have to be able to win based on shooting alone or else simple be unplayable.

It pisses me off because there's no reason for that level of imbalance. I've played IG since 4th and I think they are a perfect example of making a shooting focused army that has answers to assault. No one would ever claim that IG are winning games in the assault phase, however they do not simply crumple and die if the enemy reaches them unlike Tau. Between power sword/fist blobs, bullgryns/ogryns, and conscripts with commisars, IG have enough melee punch to hold off an enemy long enough to bring their shooting to bear.

Tau have nothing. If the enemy manages to assault them in force, the game is over for the Tau. If the enemy fails to assault them in force, the game is over (for the opponent). Nothing of consequence has survived overwatch. Tau used to have a slightly melee-oriented unit in Kroot. Kroot could act as a weak screening unit but the most recent updates took even that away from them.
I think GW missed a good opportunity for a truly unique and creative army by focusing solely on giant robot suits and basically dropping the whole 'alien empire composed of many different species' angle.

I have said it before! Tau need Tau in suits with a size similar to the Stealth suits but with a riot-like shield and a plasma/electric club. Woudln't that be cool? A pure defensive meele unit.

I have wanted melee suits for Fasight Enclaves for ages. Make the fusion blade the first mass manufactured and field deployed Tau melee weapon. Also let him have melee troops on the field.

For regular Tau introduce a new Auxilliary race that is better in melee so the faction isn't so one dimensional. Even as a Tau player I want options even if the shooting should still be really good.

I played Tau in 5th edition with the 4th edition codex against the latest Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons. I consider having a fairly even win loss record at the time as a major achievement. So I understand the frustration of playing against the unbalanced/over powered.

I don't think the Tau have anything specific that makes them unfun to play against. The bigger issue is the rules the Tau have encourage the competitive player to castle up as many big guns as they can and blow everything in sight away. Specifically Supporting Fire is the big offender here. The Army wide special rule works best if you have your army crammed together as tight a possible in the corner.

If the Army wide rule had been Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat ability, we'd have seen a very different Tau. A Tau who press forward in multiple locations to contest objectives (and thereby risk being assaulted) because they have a chance to escape. A Tau who fight over the entire board instead of casting in the corner.

I think that would have been much more fun for both sides of the table.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The problem with Tau is that they would be less broken if Allies didn't exist: Like you said the entire point of the Tau is that they absolutely suck in two out of the three aspects of the game (No Psychic Power, basically allergic to melee) to compensate for being horribly powerful in the third (shooting). This is a problem when they get paired up with an army who is their compliment; as in solves their problem and then some. Remove that and it removes some of the issues.

Another issue is that Tau bends the rules of not only their army, but that of other armies to conform to them. They can all shoot during the melee phase with overwatch basically as if it was another shooting phase. Failing that, a lot of their units are jetpack units that don't want to charge, effectively turning their melee phase into another movement phase. If they could do nothing during the melee phase and not steal the enemy's melee phase into their own shooting phase, they might be less frustrating to play against.

Given that they and the Necrons (the other shooting army) all have these problems, I get the feeling that GW, at the time, had no idea how to balance shooting given that the game system was originally heavily bias towards melee (not surprising, given that it was based off of Fantasy's ruleset).

Wait Necrons are a shooting army, when did that happen? On a more serious note as of right now we are one of the few armies in 7th that can field shooting and melee in an optimal list. I've probably won as many games in CC (lychstar and harvest doing work) as I have at ranged. I'd say we are probably the closest 7th ed comes to balanced in terms of CC vs Shooting, which is one of the things I really dig about Necrons.

The other shooting army is Eldar, they have good melee units (they have good everything really) but their CC is so overshadowed by things like warp spiders and scatt bikes that you rarely see them.