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Do you seriously want brexit so badly you're hoping Farage will become the gakking PM? Do you still think Farage cares about anyone but Farage and his banker mates?
As for May sabotaging brexit - you were expecting an incompetent politician, who only got where she did by hiding from controversy, to make a success of the nearly impossible with no mandate or clear idea?
The only chance Brexiteers have of getting the Brexit they want is fething off to a 3rd country and leave the rest of us to get on with our tragic prosperity.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/09 11:30:40
Do you seriously want brexit so badly you're hoping Farage will become the gakking PM? Do you still think Farage cares about anyone but Farage and his banker mates?
As for May sabotaging brexit - you were expecting an incompetent politician, who only got where she did by hiding from controversy, to make a success of the nearly impossible with no mandate or clear idea?
The only chance Brexiteers have of getting the Brexit they want is fething off to a 3rd country and leave the rest of us to get on with our tragic prosperity.
I'm often accused of not owning Brexit, blaming Remain etc etc
But if I were in charge, I'd take the Norway option off the shelf and run with it. It's not the Brexit I wanted, but like I say, we have to salvage something from this sorry mess.
The red lines are not worth the paper they're written on anymore, and May and the Tories are so out of their depth, they're on another planet.
The numbers in Parliament could carry EFTA/EEA, it would suit most of the UK population who I believe are moderate on this issue, heal some wounds, keep Ireland happy, and calm business.
Hardcore Remainers and Brexiteers would not be happy, but I've reluctantly came to the conclusion that this is the best we can do in the short-term.
Norway+ it is then...assuming the EU will agree to it...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It should have been that from the beginning. It’s the compromise that bridges the gap between the two sides. Had we started from that position then the last two years would have just been haggling over fees and preparing for a new customs union. fething hell, this wasn’t rocket science.
Do you seriously want brexit so badly you're hoping Farage will become the gakking PM? Do you still think Farage cares about anyone but Farage and his banker mates?
As for May sabotaging brexit - you were expecting an incompetent politician, who only got where she did by hiding from controversy, to make a success of the nearly impossible with no mandate or clear idea?
The only chance Brexiteers have of getting the Brexit they want is fething off to a 3rd country and leave the rest of us to get on with our tragic prosperity.
I'm often accused of not owning Brexit, blaming Remain etc etc
But if I were in charge, I'd take the Norway option off the shelf and run with it. It's not the Brexit I wanted, but like I say, we have to salvage something from this sorry mess.
The red lines are not worth the paper they're written on anymore, and May and the Tories are so out of their depth, they're on another planet.
The numbers in Parliament could carry EFTA/EEA, it would suit most of the UK population who I believe are moderate on this issue, heal some wounds, keep Ireland happy, and calm business.
Hardcore Remainers and Brexiteers would not be happy, but I've reluctantly came to the conclusion that this is the best we can do in the short-term.
Norway+ it is then...assuming the EU will agree to it...
Again, what makes you think honestly that EFTA would want you back:
A) you allready left for the EU B) you can't stay constantly in organisations, or atleast it seems that way.
C) Allready strained relationsships from EFTA states torwards the EU, letting the UK in, would in such a case be really a bad move from all EFTA states.
That EFTA solution should be the emergency plan of the emergency plan. the guy above me pointed out the right decision from the beginning would've been to go for a soft brexit and another one pointed out that it should've been a slow and gradual process.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Norway pays into the EU budget, is subject to the ECJ, and accepts freedom of movement. On the plus side it can negotiate its own separate trade deals.
I'm not sure that Norway solves the Northern Ireland border problem. Norway does have customs checks on its border with Sweden, they are just very streamlined.
Future War Cultist wrote: It should have been that from the beginning. It’s the compromise that bridges the gap between the two sides. Had we started from that position then the last two years would have just been haggling over fees and preparing for a new customs union. fething hell, this wasn’t rocket science.
Agreed.
I dared to dream. I had a vision of a Britain doing a root and branch reform and getting itself fighting fit for the challenges of the 21st century heading our way. And they will still be heading our way. Time and tide don't give a bucket of horsegak for who occupies 10 Downing Street, and we needed to be ready to meet them head on.
I made the error of forgetting we didn't have the Gladstones, the Disraelis, the Lloyd Georges, in office any more.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Kilkrazy wrote: The Norway position breaks some of the red lines.
Norway pays into the EU budget, is subject to the ECJ, and accepts freedom of movement. On the plus side it can negotiate its own separate trade deals.
I'm not sure that Norway solves the Northern Ireland border problem. Norway does have customs checks on its border with Sweden, they are just very streamlined.
May's red lines carry no weight outside her office door. They're meaningless now - because she's a lame duck PM. Forget the red lines.
For me, the most important thing now is the psychological act of moving out of the EU, and even though it could be EFTA/EEA, I'll take it.
Given how much of a shambles the government is, half a Brexit is better than no Brexit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
r_squared wrote: It begs the question, that if this plan was the one presented before the referendum, who would've voted for it?
Plan and David Cameron in the same sentence?
No offence to you.
At least we know where Cameron is: sunning himself at Wimbledon, the swine
Do you seriously want brexit so badly you're hoping Farage will become the gakking PM? Do you still think Farage cares about anyone but Farage and his banker mates?
As for May sabotaging brexit - you were expecting an incompetent politician, who only got where she did by hiding from controversy, to make a success of the nearly impossible with no mandate or clear idea?
The only chance Brexiteers have of getting the Brexit they want is fething off to a 3rd country and leave the rest of us to get on with our tragic prosperity.
I'm often accused of not owning Brexit, blaming Remain etc etc
But if I were in charge, I'd take the Norway option off the shelf and run with it. It's not the Brexit I wanted, but like I say, we have to salvage something from this sorry mess.
The red lines are not worth the paper they're written on anymore, and May and the Tories are so out of their depth, they're on another planet.
The numbers in Parliament could carry EFTA/EEA, it would suit most of the UK population who I believe are moderate on this issue, heal some wounds, keep Ireland happy, and calm business.
Hardcore Remainers and Brexiteers would not be happy, but I've reluctantly came to the conclusion that this is the best we can do in the short-term.
Norway+ it is then...assuming the EU will agree to it...
Again, what makes you think honestly that EFTA would want you back:
A) you allready left for the EU B) you can't stay constantly in organisations, or atleast it seems that way.
C) Allready strained relationsships from EFTA states torwards the EU, letting the UK in, would in such a case be really a bad move from all EFTA states.
That EFTA solution should be the emergency plan of the emergency plan. the guy above me pointed out the right decision from the beginning would've been to go for a soft brexit and another one pointed out that it should've been a slow and gradual process.
I agree, but these are desperate times. As I say, half a Brexit is better than no Brexit. If EFTA and the EU are at loggerheads, then maybe having the UK in there will bolster EFTA somewhat?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/09 12:30:32
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I hope so. From my reading, the EFTA model has just enough wiggle room to satisfy my concerns (an immigration brake that doesn’t require the others permission, a veto by another name, and a loser customs union) whilst maintaining all the ties Remainers are concerned with like the single market.
I just hope there’s time to implement it.
Oh, and I see EFTA as merely the first stepping stone anyway. I play the long game.
There are three particularly keen Leavers in the forum. Two of them have now come to accept the Norway EFTA model as realistic and a good compromise.
I think it is probably the most acceptable model for Remainers too.
As far as I'm concerned, and surveying the debacle that is No.10 Downing Street, EFTA is the last chopper out of Saigon.
If Remainers take the wheel, it's the full Brussels: Euro, no opt outs, no rebate.
Australia have come out and said that May's proposal makes a trade deal with the UK pointless. After all, what's in it for them? Why deal with a UK using a watered down EU rulebook, when you can deal with the full EU?
To use a military analogy, EFTA is our Dunkirk. It saves the day, we can regroup, bide our time, and prepapre for D-Day.
It's a solid start and better than the magic beans spouting out from that Chequers fiasco.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 12:57:16
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It does if you put the boarder in the sea. Also, it’s only really freight that’s effected by it. The family in their car will be waved straight through. There was a similar system in place once many years ago.
r_squared wrote: It begs the question, that if this plan was the one presented before the referendum, who would've voted for it?
Plan and David Cameron in the same sentence?
No offence to you.
At least we know where Cameron is: sunning himself at Wimbledon, the swine
It's worth noting that once again you've thoroughly dodged the question.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If EFTA and the EU are at loggerheads, then maybe having the UK in there will bolster EFTA somewhat?
But it is amusing to try and imagine an organisation that would be 'bolstered' by the present government joining. The Flat Earth Society, perhaps?
Dodging the question? With David Cameron running the show at the time, there would never been that question anyway.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It does if you put the boarder in the sea. Also, it’s only really freight that’s effected by it. The family in their car will be waved straight through. There was a similar system in place once many years ago.
Border in the sea is unacceptable for the unionists.
And there is no infrastructure in place for customs checks for anything along the Northern Ireland/Eire border. So it only being an issue for freight is still a huge issue.
EFTA still has huge issues to solve.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 13:02:30
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Future War Cultist wrote: I hope so. From my reading, the EFTA model has just enough wiggle room to satisfy my concerns (an immigration brake that doesn’t require the others permission, a veto by another name, and a loser customs union) whilst maintaining all the ties Remainers are concerned with like the single market.
I just hope there’s time to implement it.
Oh, and I see EFTA as merely the first stepping stone anyway. I play the long game.
We've no choice but to play the long game.
The DUP will be spitting feathers if the border moves to the Irish Sea, but I can live with that.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It does if you put the boarder in the sea. Also, it’s only really freight that’s effected by it. The family in their car will be waved straight through. There was a similar system in place once many years ago.
Border in the sea is unacceptable for the loyalists.
And there is no infrastructure in place for customs checks for anything along the Northern Ireland/Eire border. So it only being an issue for freight is still a huge issue.
Stephen Kinnock and a few others in the Commons back EFTA. I believe some Remainers and Leavers will accept it as a agreeable half-way house arrangement that respects the referendum.
The numbers are there to send the DUP packing.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do you seriously want brexit so badly you're hoping Farage will become the gakking PM? Do you still think Farage cares about anyone but Farage and his banker mates?
As for May sabotaging brexit - you were expecting an incompetent politician, who only got where she did by hiding from controversy, to make a success of the nearly impossible with no mandate or clear idea?
The only chance Brexiteers have of getting the Brexit they want is fething off to a 3rd country and leave the rest of us to get on with our tragic prosperity.
Well Farage is good way for complete wrecking of uk. So fits for wrexiteers who wants total wreckage.
It does if you put the boarder in the sea. Also, it’s only really freight that’s effected by it. The family in their car will be waved straight through. There was a similar system in place once many years ago.
Border in the sea is unacceptable for the loyalists.
And there is no infrastructure in place for customs checks for anything along the Northern Ireland/Eire border. So it only being an issue for freight is still a huge issue.
Had we adopted this position earlier and not had that stupid and pointless general election neither of those would have been an issue. But shoulda woulda coulda.
Dodging the question? With David Cameron running the show at the time, there would never been that question anyway.
Would you have voted for EFTA membership on June 23rd?
No.
But two years have passed, and now we have to deal with the new reality of this debacle the Tories have inflicted on us.
I'm forced to be pragmatic, otherwise, Remain will seize the day and give us the full EU treatment.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
The question becomes (has always been) what do the Europeans want form us (apart from money) and do they get enough to make the proposed deal worth it for them.
They have to balance the need to discourage other nations form trying the same against damage to their own economies.
How would the proposed deal effect Gibraltar?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Stephen Kinnock and a few others in the Commons back EFTA. I believe some Remainers and Leavers will accept it as a agreeable half-way house arrangement that respects the referendum.
The numbers are there to send the DUP packing.
We've already established that just because you can vote for something does not make it good or even possible.
They could vote for EFTA, but then you're throwing away the sovereignty of Northern Ireland as a part of the UK.
How would a border in the sea work? Are goods not able to be imported into Northern Ireland if they would not be able to be freely transferred into the EU? So you have Northern Ireland unable to access goods and services available to the entire rest of the UK (which would also serve to make all the arguments that UK citizens should have equal rights moot, making the criticism of NI's abortion laws using that as their point of attack incredible hypocrisy).
If goods are able to be brought into Northern Ireland how do you prevent them from then being taken into Eire and, therefore, the EU?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 13:08:04
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I would have voted for EFTA/EEA. I initially dismissed it because I believed in the ‘governed by fax’ myth but doing some basic research changed my mind.
Stephen Kinnock and a few others in the Commons back EFTA. I believe some Remainers and Leavers will accept it as a agreeable half-way house arrangement that respects the referendum.
The numbers are there to send the DUP packing.
We've already established that just because you can vote for something does not make it good or even possible.
They could vote for EFTA, but then you're throwing away the sovereignty of Northern Ireland as a part of the UK.
How would a border in the sea work? Are goods not able to be imported into Northern Ireland if they would not be able to be freely transferred into the EU? So you have Northern Ireland unable to access goods and services available to the entire rest of the UK (which would also serve to make all the arguments that UK citizens should have equal rights moot, making the criticism of NI's abortion laws using that as their point of attack incredible hypocrisy).
If goods are able to be brought into Northern Ireland how do you prevent them from then being taken into Eire and, therefore, the EU?
These are good questions, and I'll let the man himself answer them for you.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Dodging the question? With David Cameron running the show at the time, there would never been that question anyway.
Would you have voted for EFTA membership on June 23rd?
No.
But two years have passed, and now we have to deal with the new reality of this debacle the Tories have inflicted on us.
I'm forced to be pragmatic, otherwise, Remain will seize the day and give us the full EU treatment.
Brexiteers inflicted this debacle on us. Nobody could have handled this issue any better because Leave promised everyone everything. The governments "red lines" were all promises made by the leave campaign. If the referendum is meant to be regarded as the will of the people then the leave campaign should be regarded as what the will of the brexiteers was. Which was uninterrupted trade with the EU whilst making trade deals with everywhere else in the world (which would be as good as the ones we had in the EU), end of freedom of movement, more money for the NHS, no ECJ jurisdiction, complete control over UK fishing waters etc.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Does the EFTA style still not mean you have very little say if the EU changes anything, other pulling out of it?
At times, there has been harsh words said on this forum between Remainers and Brexit supporters. That's understandable, because we all love this great nation. I bear no grudges towards people for that.
I voted for Brexit, and I would vote for it again tomorrow. I make no apologies for my anti-EU stance.
None the less, it's crystal clear the Tories couldn't find their backsides without a map and compass, so as a stopgap, a staging post to a complete Brexit down the line...
I'll take EFTA/EEA for a few years. It might also bridge this nation and this forum as an acceptable compromise.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Does the EFTA style still not mean you have very little say if the EU changes anything, other pulling out of it?
The Norwegians have a say, they just don't have a vote. Their advice is to keep very close to what's going on in the EU, get the earliest possible information about new proposals, and lobby hard and long.
