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Frank Field, Kate Hoey and, Graham Stringer voted with the Tories. Vince Cable and Tim Farron didn't show up.


Tories won by 3 votes.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I am willing to compromise on this. I knew Westminster couldn't organise a funeral in a graveyard, but God almighty, I didn't know they were this bad. None of us did...

Bollocks. We told you so.

To be fair we just said what the outcome would be and what the response from the EU would be and that the government would be pissing in the wind if they tried to get the EU to change things they had said were absolutely immutable rules. What no one expected was for the government to stand there for so long with wet feet and trying to make the wind go down to Clark’s for a new pair of brogues.

Apparently Farron missed the vote because he was in Dorset speaking at a 'Death of Liberalism' meeting. Essentially to complain that you can't be a homophobic politician.

A lot of Labour MPs missed the vote too.

There is another big vote this afternoon.

You can see why May wants to close Parliament five days early.

Madness, really! We are in the middle of the most difficult and strategically important situation since WW2, and the government wants to shut up shop early to protect its party interests.

I am also amused by the Brexiteer amendments coming from people who shrieked that parliament should not bind the PM's hands in the negotiations when Remainer amendments were being tabled.

 Knockagh wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In other news, I am very pleased to see that Scotland is going to get a space port!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/spaceport-receives-go-ahead-on-scottish-peninsula

That’s awesome. I wonder will they offer deals on getting your ashes fired into space? Surely that’s a must for any 40k fan.

I'm afraid this project looks like it is dead on arrival. £2.5m is a ridiculously low amount of support for such a project. It just about gets you a concrete pad (assuming nothing is done on any design work). It is in the middle of nowhere, with terrible transport links (it's at least 2.5hrs from Inverness). At a minimum you will need:-

Fully integrated lauch system - underground fuelling operations etc
Transport links to allow for rocket parts to be transported - that's either a new port or seriously upgraded road network
Fuelling network. That's likely a new pipeline or, again, a new port (better as it gives access globally and we have very few launch system manufacturers in the UK).
Engineering buildings for construction, build, maintenance of the rockets and loading of satellites.
Hence facilities for the engineers and operators (not everyone wants to live in the back of beyond)
Hence upgraded local infrastructure.

The cost of such a project I would estimate would be at least £0.5bn+ (and that's likely just the basics). If the government really wanted to invest in such a project this is how much they would need to commit. £2.5m is a pointlessly small amount of money. My guess is it will be quietly dropped in a few years, at least at this location.

There is of course the possibility of attracting EU development funding.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A lot of Labour MPs missed the vote too.

There is another big vote this afternoon.

You can see why May wants to close Parliament five days early.

Madness, really! We are in the middle of the most difficult and strategically important situation since WW2, and the government wants to shut up shop early to protect its party interests.

I am also amused by the Brexiteer amendments coming from people who shrieked that parliament should not bind the PM's hands in the negotiations when Remainer amendments were being tabled.

Given that this was an opportunity to really stop and think about the process, it is quite off that so many stayed away from the vote.

I wish I could vote on going on holiday for an extra week at the same pay. I wonder whether they will give up a 50th of their pay if they go on holiday early?

And yes the hypocrisy from the frothing lunatics on the Tory right is overwhelming...but I think we should know now that they will say anything to get their way and damn the what they might have done and stood for before.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

What we got instead was doom and gloom. There are people in Britain who have nothing. Literally nothing to lose And Remain were saying that those people were going to lose money they never had?

You'd think that, but those very people are the ones that are going to be most badly hurt by Brexit. They are more likely to be relying on council/government funded services and manufacturing/service jobs. Trading gets hard and they may find their jobs lost. Economy gets damaged and they'll see service cuts. Tories get their way without the HRA and they'll get their rights taken away. The cost of their food, accomodation, energy etc will all go up.

They stand to gain almost nothing - none of their problems will be fixed by reducing migration.

You always have something to lose as long as you aren't dead. So literally nothing to lose is lie unless you talk about dead people.

Speaking of hypocrisy...

Vote Leave: Brexit campaign 'broke electoral law' in referendum

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Speaking of hypocrisy...

Vote Leave: Brexit campaign 'broke electoral law' in referendum

Pretty shocking really, looking at the figures if you combine the overspend by Grimes and Vote Leave then you are looking at about a 16% overspend (over £1m) than was allowed under the rules (£7m).

This isn't a few grand here and there that was missed. This was calculated overspending on a staggering scale.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/vote-leave-referred-to-police-by-electoral-commission-who-found-significant-evidence-it-broke-electoral-law_uk_5b4d8b6de4b0fd5c73be56be?ypf&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

Daft thing is that fines of £61k and £20k are nothing compared to this overspend.

The fine is the maximum allowed by the law extant at the time of the offence.

If they broke the law they should go down for it. No ifs, ands or buts. Christ it just gets more embarrassing.

The efta option is proving to be quite popular among the readership of the spectator, who are generally about as Leaver as you can get. And I’m fairly certain that Norway’s position on us joining it was “I wouldn’t recommend it because it’s not exactly perfect but if you want to join go ahead”. Why must things be made so difficult?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The fine is the maximum allowed by the law extant at the time of the offence.

That's also the fine imposed by the Election Commission. Is it possible that if the police decide to prosecute there could be further fines imposed by the courts?

I believe there could be prison involved. However it is up to the police and Crown Prosecution service to decide whether to carry a case forward, and it may not happen.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The fine is the maximum allowed by the law extant at the time of the offence.

The point is that if the fine is massively lower than the actual expenditure then it is no disincentive at all. You can effectively right it off as part of the campaign costs. At most Grimes might get a suspended jail term. They are unlikely to jail someone for a significant period of time. On the other hands Grimes was likely just used (and let himself be).

Brexy Bonus time!!

Office for Budget Responsibility confirms the government's promise of a Brexit Bonus for the NHS is a myth.

The EU signs a major trade deal with Japan
Full ratification is likely to happen before the UK drops out of it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Brexy Bonus time!!

Office for Budget Responsibility confirms the government's promise of a Brexit Bonus for the NHS is a myth.

I'm sure it won't be long until we get Boris the Clown, Gove, Fox et al. all claiming that they are only figures and they have it incorrect.

The EU signs a major trade deal with Japan
Full ratification is likely to happen before the UK drops out of it.

It's just a third of the world economy. That's just pennies surely for the UK? But hey free trade with New Zealand will make up for it!

I also see they have released initial costs for the badger cull in Wales. £76,000 per animal and the tests aren't even reliable. I think that puts the total cost for a UK wide roll out of about £2bn. Perhaps that is where we will spend the mythical Wrexit dividend?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/badger-cull-wales-tuberculosis-bovine-tb-farms-blood-tests-a8450301.html

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1019239681152741382

MPs have voted 315-285 against requiring the Government to publish texts of proposed trade agreements prior to ratification

.. TAKING BACK CONTROL !

Not content with voting against having the right to ratify international trade treaties, Parliament has voted against even requiring the Government to show them their contents.

and this helps us how exactly ?

and people say the EU is undemocratic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


The EU signs a major trade deal with Japan
Full ratification is likely to happen before the UK drops out of it.

Word is that Brexit and Trump greatly accelerated the process. So thank both for what it's worth.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a Nissan made in Yokosuka would enter the EU tariff-free but one made in Sunderland wouldn't?

 reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1019239681152741382

MPs have voted 315-285 against requiring the Government to publish texts of proposed trade agreements prior to ratification

.. TAKING BACK CONTROL !

Not content with voting against having the right to ratify international trade treaties, Parliament has voted against even requiring the Government to show them their contents.

and this helps us how exactly ?

and people say the EU is undemocratic.

I'm with you on this. It's shameful stuff. I've been watching this all afternoon and they even shot down the SNP amendment that wanted the devolved governments to have a say, a say mind you, and not a veto.

If London won't even listen to Belfast, Cardiff, or Edinburgh, you wonder what's the point. Incredibly short-sighted.

Who can argue against Parliament scrutinising new trade deals? Not me.

Many many thanks for helping to push us into this ridiculous situation then.

so today we've seen a prime minister who will accept/has to swallow ERG amendments -- designed to wreck almost entirely her negotiating position --but won’t accept Tory MPs amendments supporting her negotiating position.

Whilst Tory MP Nicky Morgan was trying to enlist Labour MPs to support the government's own negotiating strategy against its own wishes.




didn't really think it'd happen, but do not see any possible way forwards now without a general election, this is unsustainable.

Many many thanks for helping to push us into this ridiculous situation then.

Well, as I've said before, if MPs won't defend the Commons, then why the feth should anybody else?

It's not my fault if MPs have no spines.

 reds8n wrote:
Many many thanks for helping to push us into this ridiculous situation then.

so today we've seen a prime minister who will accept/has to swallow ERG amendments -- designed to wreck almost entirely her negotiating position --but won’t accept Tory MPs amendments supporting her negotiating position.

Whilst Tory MP Nicky Morgan was trying to enlist Labour MPs to support the government's own negotiating strategy against its own wishes.




didn't really think it'd happen, but do not see any possible way forwards now without a general election, this is unsustainable.

The current Government is taking more and more advice from China it appears. Absolutely ridiculous that there can be no scrutiny of trade deals. And you have Liam Fox who gave private access to a mate to foreign office trips the ability to agree these behind closed doors. What is this Trumpland? How long until they decide MPs aren't required and disband all elections?

What is more scary is just how many MPs voted for removing the ability to question what is being actioned. They are after all there to represent the populace and the government should be nothing more than first among equals. How can you represent a populace with no ability to undertake that representation?

Still at least one amendment has passed. They have to ensure we remain in the European Medicines framework.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Many many thanks for helping to push us into this ridiculous situation then.

Well, as I've said before, if MPs won't defend the Commons, then why the feth should anybody else?

It's not my fault if MPs have no spines.

Because MPs obviously are looking out for themselves and not the people. That doesn't mean the people shouldn't stand up in and cry out as democracy is slowly whittled away by a few hungry for power.

Well said Whirlwind.

I want a beefed up Parliament, I want scrutiny of trade bills. I want Parliament to be sovereign.

But is it my job to defend the Commons? No, that's what we have MPs for.

I don't put out large blazes, because I'm not a fireman. Or catch crooks, because I'm not a policeman.

I vote, I pay taxes, I do jury duty, I try my best to be a good citizen, but MPs have to meet us half way on this.

MPs should be fighting to defend the Commons, not people like me. Of course I don't want them reduced to a shadow of their selves, but they need to show some fight as well.

All I and we can do is cast a vote against them at elections.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's not my fault

yes it is.

You and everyone else who have forced us into this ridiculous situation.

And, as per usual, still cannot accept any of your responsibility.

So we watch on as Tory "rebels" win a vote that was the government's position at the end of last Friday, with the government -- who proposed the idea -- itself voting against it.

..still on the plus side the MPs get to vote as to whether they get 5 extra paid days holiday -- in affect -- so good old fashioned laziness might save the day.

 reds8n wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's not my fault

yes it is.

You and everyone else who have forced us into this ridiculous situation.

And, as per usual, still cannot accept any of your responsibility.

So we watch on as Tory "rebels" win a vote that was the government's position at the end of last Friday, with the government -- who proposed the idea -- itself voting against it.

..still on the plus side the MPs get to vote as to whether they get 5 extra paid days holiday -- in affect -- so good old fashioned laziness might save the day.

I will defend the Commons. I will defend our MPs. But they have to be standing in the trenches next to the people when this battle is going on. Otherwise, they look bad, not up for the fight, and people will wonder why are we bothering then.

You forget British history. What did our MPs do when King Charles threatened them? They stood up and defended Parliament. I'm not saying we need a modern day Edgehill, but they need to show some fight.

As for yesterday's debacle, that was plain incompetence that's been happening all my adult life. We had blunders on this scale even when we were in the EU.

Oh look, yet another DINLT non-response. Refusing once again to accept any responsibility for what his own vote has wrought (or even address the question of it) and instead blathering on and on about MPs 'fighting for parliament' and 'standing in the trenches' without giving any indication what the hell and of that is supposed to mean.

"It's not my fault the politicians aren't stopping the thing I voted for."

The Westminster version of "why are you hitting yourself?"

Honestly, the cheers of the (presumed) hard brexiters when they got a wink tonight was sickening. Throaty roars of approval of the prospect of long dole lines, industry in tatters, public services slashed to the bone. One lone cry of 'never mind the jobs then', but they don't. Because they and their mates are all independently wealthy and a collapsed economy only increases their status, not diminishes it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I will defend our MPs. But they have to be standing in the trenches next to the people when this battle is going on.

You know they won't be.

On the plus side, a second referendum is becoming more likeley by the day.

The difficulty is that it is likely to take 9 to 12 months to organise and carry out.

A general election, though, can happen in weeks if the government falls.

Let's all remember that May leads a minority government sustained in power only by the magic money tree feeding the DUP.

Well, seeing as some people think I need things spelt out for me in bright crayons, let me be as simple as I can.

This is what happened in The Commons not more than an hour ago.

Pro-EU Tory rebels threatened to vote against government.

Government threatened them with confidence vote.

Rebels had to choose between Party or principals.

Rebels chose party.

Somehow, it's DINLT's fault that people who extol the virtues of the EU fade away when push comes to shove.

I might be a lot of things, but I'm not God. I can't put backbone into unprincipled chancers whom I've never met before in my life.

People say oh, you voted for it. I didn't vote for Vince Cable not being arsed to turn up to Parliament, or Diann Abbott having a 'migraine' or Anne Soubry waving the white flag.

You can blame me for a lot of things, but you can't blame me for that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I will defend our MPs. But they have to be standing in the trenches next to the people when this battle is going on.

You know they won't be.

No offence to Remain members, and maybe you lot don't like this hard truth, but if there's one 'good' thing out of Brexit, it's that Remain now knows which people on their side can be relied on when the going gets tough. You know who the warriors are who will fight for the EU, and more importantly, you know who the fair weather friends are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
On the plus side, a second referendum is becoming more likeley by the day.

The difficulty is that it is likely to take 9 to 12 months to organise and carry out.

A general election, though, can happen in weeks if the government falls.

Let's all remember that May leads a minority government sustained in power only by the magic money tree feeding the DUP.

I know from my membership that the SNP really don't have the cash for another GE and that Labour are not much better off.

The Tories usually rely on a dodgy donation to fund their GE war chest.

Point is, nobody's got the money for another GE so soon after last year.