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Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/27/this-is-what-no-deal-brexit-actually-looks-like


No deal is one of those really bad ideas, like shell suits or Celine Dion, which we thought we could leave in the past. But this summer it's somehow all the rage. It's discussed as if it were just another Brexit option.

It is not. No-deal is probably the most demented policy put forward by mainstream British politicians in the modern era. To see how it would work in practice, this piece looks at what would happen on day one. Doing this for the whole economy would take countless pages of Stephen-King-style horror, so it's stripped down to one topic: food. This is the story of how our system for importing and exporting food implodes almost instantly.

You may remember 'Brexit means Brexit' - that nursery rhyme from the bygone days of late 2016. It was false. But no-deal, on the other hand, really does mean no-deal. The withdrawal treaty comes as one package, so if Theresa May fails to secure it, everything falls down. There are no deals on anything.

March 30th 2019 becomes Year Zero. Overnight, British meat products cannot be imported into the EU. To bring these types of goods in, they have to come from a country with an approved national body whose facilities have been certified by the EU. But there has been no deal, so there's no approval.

This sounds insane. After all, British food was OK to enter Europe with minimal checks on March 29th, so why not on March 30? Nothing has changed.

The reason is that food is potentially very dangerous, so we have strict systems in place for it. Imagine that right now someone is eating a burger made from the meat of a cow with a neurodegenerative disease, like BSE. This is what happened in Britain in the late-80s and led to the deaths of 177 people. Tomorrow's tabloid front pages will ask certain very important questions. Where did the meat come from? Was it produced domestically or imported? Who was responsible for its production, transport and storage? The people responsible will be hauled in front of cameras and Commons select committees. Ministers will have to give statements to parliament. The press will demand that heads roll.

The BSE outbreak almost brought down the government. That's how severe these threats are. And there are plenty more around, including foot and mouth, avian flu, and African swine fever, plus those that do not exist yet.

This is why the certification system for food coming into Europe is so stringent and detailed. After Brexit, we will fall out of the eco-system of EU rules, agencies and courts and become an external country. That means certification requirements will apply to us too.

Certificates are approval stamps, designed per product and country, documenting the fact that it meets the various standards for human health and animal welfare. Say a container full of pork loins is sent from Leeds to Amsterdam after Brexit day. It will need to be signed off by a vet to say that the meat was slaughtered, stored, quality assured, sealed and despatched in a certain manner, with appropriate documentation proving compliance.

This will be a cold splash of water to the face for Britain. We've grown so used to frictionless EU trade that our food system is based on something called Just In Time. The idea behind this is that products are constantly cycling from producers to consumers, without being stored in big cargo holds. It's more efficient and also more pleasant. This is why you eat fresh tomatoes from countries miles away without ever really having to think about how extraordinary it is. Under your feet, a miraculous logistical system is constantly pumping ham and cheese and fruit and veg and bread around the continent. It's a circulatory system of yummy wonderfulness.

The UK is particularly reliant on Just in Time because it doesn't feed itself. Domestic food production has been steadily declining from the early 1980s and is now at just 60%. Most of our imports come from the EU because it is closest to us. With food more than arguably any other good, distance is important, because it'll go off. About 10,000 containers of food come into the UK from the EU daily. (This is an excellent recent report on Britain's food security and its vulnerabilities.)

But the efficiency makes it fragile. The impact of no-deal Brexit on this system would be an implosion in the trade network. Suddenly, the full certification system would need to be checked at the border. Frictionless trade would be replaced by standard-issue bureaucracy.

This is where the crunch point will be. The main ports affected will be the ones at Dover, Calais, the Eurotunnel, Dunkirk, and Holyhead, for trade to and from Ireland.

Products of animal origin from non-EU states must pass through special border inspection posts, manned by a vet. Calais and the Eurotunnel are not equipped for this. Dunkirk is, but it has a very low capacity.

We have a very significant infrastructure problem here. We don't have enough inspection posts, we don't have the staff to man them, we don't have the means to divert product to them and we don't have the cold storage capacity to handle product going in and out. Many ports don't have space to install more facilities.

Inspections take time. Where a product must be detained and a sample taken off for testing, the process can last around 36 hours.

It is fatal. A study by an expert on traffic modelling from Imperial College London earlier this year found that if the current average paperwork clearance of two minutes at Dover was increased to just four, there would be a 20-mile tailback within 24 hours on the UK side. This would balloon as the days wore on.



It doesn't really matter which side the tailbacks start on - European or British. One side affects the other because there is limited space for goods to move. Some experts predict a total breakdown of the Just In Time system by day five. That's where the horror stories you read about stockpiling come from. Very quickly, we'd see empty supermarket shelves.

At this point, Downing Street could decide to unilaterally give up all these tests and procedures for goods coming into the UK. After all, it is now unbound from EU law. It can do what it likes.

There is some evidence that this is what ministers are planning. In February, Defra minister George Eustice told a Lords committee his department would implement a 'mutual recognition' regime, which ultimately amounts to assuming food from the EU was safe to eat and hoping they did the same. Transport secretary Chris Grayling told the BBC categorically in March that "we will not impose checks" at the port of Dover.

But this approach would have profound consequences. Overnight, there would be no protections whatsoever for UK consumers on the food they eat.

This would be a betrayal of ministers' assurances of high food standards after Brexit, but put aside the morality and think about the practicality. Opening the border in this way would provide an open invitation for fraudsters. They could send anything to the UK they like - any food product, any drink, with any ingredient - knowing there would be no checks. The spot check system operating under EU law would vanish. There would be no documentation, no safeguards, no court oversight, and no supervision.

The UK would be instantly downgraded to pariah status by the EU and the rest of our trading partners. British food exports would shrivel up.

The other solution would be to turn away from the continent and start importing our food from across the Atlantic.

The problem with this idea is the existence of geography. The EU is not our main food supplier because of some metropolitan conspiracy by people who like brie. It's our main food supplier because it is close to us. The US, regardless of its 'Anglophone' cultural credentials, is further away. US exports to the UK are proportionately tiny. They are ranked 10th, behind a host of European countries. For America to replace this volume of trade flow in nine months is simply not realistic. No-one with any understanding of the industry thinks it is possible.



But ministers like Liam Fox will likely demand this anyway - not because it makes sense, but because it provides them with a historic and irreversible opportunity to break Britain away from the continent and towards the US.

This is because of something called 'sanitary and phytosanitary standards'. These are global measures to protect people, animals and the environment from diseases. The EU has one approach to these and the US has another.

Years ago Nasa developed something called Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points (HACCP). It was an extremely systematic approach to guaranteeing quality control on foods, primarily for the reason that it is very, very problematic if an astronaut gets diarrhoea. The EU adopted this very high standard in 2006.

The US, on the other hand, has much lower standards. The EU rejects US standards on the levels of pesticides residue in fruit, for instance, hormone injections in beef and chlorine wash in poultry. It has strict and very welcome requirements on the excess and routine use of antimicrobials in agriculture. Anyone who has had their life saved by antibiotics awill recognise why this is sensible long-term rule-making.

Brexiters pretend post-Brexit Britain UK will forge its own standards in trade, but that is false. We're a medium-sized country surrounded on both sides by massive trading entities. The reality is we'll either snuggle into the EU ecosystem or the US ecosystem - it's as simple as that. On food, this is basically about which set of sanitary and phytosanitary standards we adopt.

If Brexiters can force a situation - especially in the chaotic furnace of no-deal - where the UK starts de-facto accepting US standards by having to bring in lots of their food, it makes it harder for us to align with the EU again in the future. It's a fait accompli, except that Fox would consider that phrase unforgivably continental. Maybe he'd prefer Mission Accomplished.

As the days and weeks wore on after a no-deal Brexit, British agriculture would be pulverised.

Tariffs are exorbitantly high for food products. Under a deal, they'd be kept at zero, but without one they'll average 22%. This would devastate UK agricultural exports, whose main market is Europe.

Britain could decide to unilaterally bring these tariffs down to zero. But you can't discriminate between countries under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, so it would then have to do this for the rest of the world as well. That would bring in a flood of cheaper agricultural products from countries with lower standards and protections.

Food prices would come down for some consumers. This would force domestic British agriculture consumption into a death spiral. They'd be blocked from exporting to their largest foreign market and suddenly faced with impossible competition at home.

Alternately, the UK could try to move past the immediate chaos of no-deal, pull itself together, and level-up capacity so it could get the certification system demanded by the EU up and running. But here it runs into another problem, which feels disturbingly like the twist at the end of a morality tale: there aren’t enough vets, because they're all from the EU.

British vets like setting up small clinics in a village somewhere and saving the family dog. Admit it. That's the image in your head when someone says the word 'vet'. They do not envision spending their career watching cow carcasses being washed down in an abattoir. The culture of veterinary checks in food is much more common in Europe, especially in Spain. EU citizens consequently make up 95% of the veterinary workforce in UK food production.

If Britain is going to suddenly have to do all these checks to export food to the EU, it will require a massive increase in these types of vets. But at the moment we can't even keep the ones we've got. European workers are leaving, sick of the lack of security about their status and a national conversation which only ever treats them as a problem. We lose about 20 EU vets a month from the sector.

Without a deal on Brexit, it becomes hard to fill that gap, because new EU workers would find it harder to come to the UK. This hinges on something called 'mutual recognition of professional qualifications'. If there's a deal, the qualification you have in Europe entitles you to work in the UK and vice versa. If there isn't, all that falls down.

This is the scale of the catastrophe no-deal entails. And this is just one area. It does not cover what would happen to services, or industrial goods, or the fact planes would be grounded, or energy, or any other part of the economy. This is just one sliver of the chaos which would hit the UK. There are simply no precedents for this scenario.

It remains, even now, unlikely that it could happen. No advanced country has committed hara-kiri like this. The weeks leading up to no-deal would likely see a form of market panic. Once investors decided it was really going to happen - say late January or mid-February - they would act accordingly.

That would sharpen minds in London and Brussels. Some kind of emergency provision would probably be passed. This would not be a deal. It would be a sticking plaster saying existing UK-EU arrangements on trade are carried over past Brexit Day for a limited period.

This would prevent catastrophe, but not for long. It would probably be a matter of weeks.

So even in this best-case no-deal scenario, things would be very intense. Britain would have to make crucial decisions about its future very quickly. That core issue in the Brexit debate - do we pick the EU ecosystem or the US one - would suddenly have to be dealt with. It would be a decision made to a razor-sharp timetable, amid scenes of extraordinary political chaos, with consequences that would define the economic future of the country.

We'd be fiddling, while drunk and hysterical, with the levers of the country's engine room. And we would make mistakes: long-term, core-function errors under impossibly volatile conditions.

No matter how soothingly they suggest it, this is not something any rational person would want. The fact we are even talking about it suggests there is something deeply wrong with us.

This piece is based on conversations with…

Jason Aldiss, managing director of Eville & Jones, a leading provider of official veterinary controls, and former president of the Veterinary Public Health Association.

Tim Lang, professor of food policy at City University London

Tony Lewis, head of policy at the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health

Sam Lowe, senior research fellow at the Centre for European Reform and visiting research fellow at the King's University Policy Unit

...and several others in London and Brussels who chose not to be named.



The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in jp
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Brace yourself. Ain't the no-deal wonderful? And if May doesn't abort wrexit tkat's what yok gep

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 Da krimson barun wrote:
A terrible injustice. Execution is absolutely against British principles. Any decent country would have used a Goverment-Sponsored death squad to kill them in a street along with half a dozen people of their religion, then shoddily covered it up.


You want to be careful chucking douchebag inflammotory comments like that in. You are in effect saying that the British cannot take a principled stance now or ever on anything because previous generations acted like gaks?

There was plenty of evil committed by all sides in Ireland, don't try and chuck stuff in like this to feel better on your high horse, because republicans are as deep in the moral gak as the rest of us. It does feth all except alienate support for your argument from those of us on the other side.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

As opposed to calling people "animals"?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Hey! Y'know the whole thing about "Thousands of ships a day arriving on Hive Worlds to feed the populace" and you wonder "what happens if the place is cut off by a warp storm?

We could be about to find out!
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Next time my wife chides me for being too fat I'll tell her it's part of my Brexit survival plan.

After a couple of weeks of starvation, I will have slimmed down to a good fighting weight while all the skinnies will have wasted away and made easy prey.

Ha ha ha!

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in jp
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Kilkrazy wrote:
Next time my wife chides me for being too fat I'll tell her it's part of my Brexit survival plan.

After a couple of weeks of starvation, I will have slimmed down to a good fighting weight while all the skinnies will have wasted away and made easy prey.

Ha ha ha!


Devious! Take that soft prey!

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As opposed to calling people "animals"?


And how would you describe their behaviour?

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Possible compromise on Galileo between the UK and the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/27/galileo-satellite-project-eu-mulls-deal-give-uk-guaranteed-access-after-brexit

Sensible IMO, given NATO implications, intelligence sharing etc etc

Let's not re-hash old arguments on this, because we all know where we stand

but I actually accept the EU's stance on restricting the work to EU countries only. I have no problem with that, seeing as we are leaving.

And if there are EU projects that are beneficial to Britain, and the EU will let us in them, in return for hard cash, I have no problem with that, either.

The key difference being that the UK will be able to pick and choose which projects it wants to join.






"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in ie
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




octarius.Lets krump da bugs!

 r_squared wrote:
 Da krimson barun wrote:
A terrible injustice. Execution is absolutely against British principles. Any decent country would have used a Goverment-Sponsored death squad to kill them in a street along with half a dozen people of their religion, then shoddily covered it up.


You want to be careful chucking douchebag inflammotory comments like that in. You are in effect saying that the British cannot take a principled stance now or ever on anything because previous generations acted like gaks?

There was plenty of evil committed by all sides in Ireland, don't try and chuck stuff in like this to feel better on your high horse, because republicans are as deep in the moral gak as the rest of us. It does feth all except alienate support for your argument from those of us on the other side.

Yes but I wouldn't declare execution of captured enemy combatants to be against Republican principles, considering how often it was done. I'm personally against it, but I'd never have the gall to act like our lot was against it. I'll consider it the crimes of a past generation when the archives are opened. Also not sure the children of Yemen would call it a past generation.

Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
Good!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/isis-jihadis-beatles-death-penalty-home-office-suspend-sajid-javid-a8465641.html

The Home Secretary has turned back on its previous (very bad) decision not to oppose the death penalty for the "ISIL Beatles".

I hold no love for them as individuals, but I believe it is very important for the country to stick to its principles.



There are many people who the world would be better off without and I would not shed any tears for those two. But if there is a chance that even one person could be wrongfully executed than its not worth the risk.

   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 r_squared wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As opposed to calling people "animals"?


And how would you describe their behaviour?


Human. As a species, we do atrocious stuff all the time. Pretending that these aren't the actions of humans isn't going to help at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 18:54:20


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Door to door salespeople should be outlawed. I’m sorry, I just fell for one and I’m going crazy trying to undo it. How difficult that’s proving to be is very worrying. I’m looking at this and I’m imagining what more vulnerable people must go through. Easy targets.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




GoatboyBeta wrote:

The main problem I see with this theory is that it would require a grasp of long term planning, unity and a degree of selflessness. All qualities that large swathes of the Conservative party have been shown not to possess.


I thought this at first but in the end i came to the conclusion that it really didn't, it needs the top members yes but the rest fall in line.
Theresa may is just giving the brexiters what they want, make our own laws? well we must leave the ECJ. Make our own trade deals? we must leave the customs union ETC.
The big one for me was there rejection of EFTA right in the beginning. Vote leave said throughout the campaign that we would stay in the customs union, then all of a sudden oh no we must leave.
The other was the northern Ireland border, leave didn't even mention it, because they knew they couldn't solve it.
could our government? no. but they spent most of the negotiation time trying to find a way to do the Sweden-Norway border better then they do!!
Hell take vote leave they didn't have a plan at all!!, or did they? we don't know but they had thousands working for them, do you think any of them would have asked "do we have a plan"?
Of course they did but they would have been told it's above your pay grade, we can't let it leak etc.
They believed what they were told without any evidence (just look at the £350 million for the NHS)
In the end all it needed was for the remainers to believe this wouldn't happen (we are all guilty of this. I don't think anyone thought they were crazy enough to even get a no deal by mistake)
and to be weak enough not to go against the "will of the people"
and the brexiters to continue doing what they did during the referendum I.E. not to question brexiter management, believe what they are told without much eveidence
and to treat the EU as an enemy.
The last piece of the stone? the torys putting party before country, how many times have i read that on here?
Theresa mays negotiations not going well?
We''ll bring down the government
Oh and make Corbyn prime-minister?
On second thought, I'll give her another chance.

All the while pretending to do the impossible
the remainers knew it was impossible so they accepted we were not getting anywhere.
the brexiters believed that we could get a deal no matter what anyone said and its the EUs fault for not coming to our level
which feeds into the were being punished narrative there strategy needed.

No one believed they would want or try to get no deal brexit and that left us all open. we fell into there trap as we believed that they would never go for this,
so when they smiled and said "no of course we don't want no deal brexit" we accepted it.

EDIT sorry my internet keeps dropping out

All it needs is a handful of people inside (may, davis) coming up with plans that wont work but are trying to appease. Outside (mogg) to do what everyone thinks he will,
fight for what he wants. Then add a few newspaper owners (4 owners own 3 major leave papers) to add legitimacy and spread disinformation.
The remainers will fight for what they want.
What does it all add up too??
CHAOS
Who wins if chaos reigns? the backstop plan... which we all thought was EFTA
Oh wait no it isn't now.

Future War Cultist wrote:Door to door salespeople should be outlawed. I’m sorry, I just fell for one and I’m going crazy trying to undo it. How difficult that’s proving to be is very worrying. I’m looking at this and I’m imagining what more vulnerable people must go through. Easy targets.

Damn sorry to hear that, they got my grandmother on a pneumatic bed that was to high for her to get on!!
I feel for ya.




These are the ads by leave posted to facebook
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Ads-supplied-by-Facebook-to-the-DCMS-Committee.pdf[url]

WOW
SO MANY LIES.
how many are click bait to learn everything about you?
HOW MANY TIMES WE DO NOT GIVE £350 MILLION NET TO THE EU!!!
channel 4 says 45% were threats on immigration, so when are turkey joining the EU again?

ERRM... one more thing guys if the government aren't stockpiling food, and they haven't talked to supermarkets about it
[b]WHO IS STOCKPILING THE FOOD


https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/07/27/theresa-mays-reassurance-and-comfort-about-stockpiling-food-is-utter-rubbish/[/url]

I have changed my mind the torys are going to threaten the EU into giving us a good deal.
Give us a good deal or we'll leave and kill thousands of people!!!!!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 21:39:46


 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






That’s awful. It’s sickening when they target the elderly like that. Me though, I really should have known better. It was that Hello Fresh place who bring food to your door. I’m actually trying to save money on groceries so they got me good.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Future War Cultist wrote:
That’s awful. It’s sickening when they target the elderly like that. Me though, I really should have known better. It was that Hello Fresh place who bring food to your door. I’m actually trying to save money on groceries so they got me good.

I see they tried me with that, I almost went for it but, well... i have eclectic taste more often then not i will stop by 1 of the 5 supermarkets or umpteen takeout places and pick something up
i got a craving for during the day.
They must have a cooling off period or something,Others on here are probably more clued up then me, I'm sure someone will find a way to cancel it.
   
Made in nl
Disassembled Parts Inside a Talos





 Future War Cultist wrote:
That’s awful. It’s sickening when they target the elderly like that. Me though, I really should have known better. It was that Hello Fresh place who bring food to your door. I’m actually trying to save money on groceries so they got me good.


And like that I ended up reading various pieces of both dutch and british law and (EU) directives regarding off-premises contracts and other consumer rights. Really quite interesting to read about, so thank you for helping me get through an otherwise dull evening!

Door to door sales are rather nasty regardless though. Hope you can get rid of it before they start actually shipping boxes of (usually perishable, if I recall correctly?) food to you!
   
Made in gb
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Door to door salespeople should be outlawed. I’m sorry, I just fell for one and I’m going crazy trying to undo it. How difficult that’s proving to be is very worrying. I’m looking at this and I’m imagining what more vulnerable people must go through. Easy targets.


Sorry to hear that. I hate pressurised sales tactics, wherever they are.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I feel way too young to be taken in by that kind of tactic. What a dick I am.

To steer it towards politics, could it be banned?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I'm not sure how much it would help.

I mean, the whole. "Hello sir, I am from The Internet..." thing.

It's not like fraud isn't already illegal.

As for this sort of thing, I would have thought just calling up your bank and asking them to fix this please would have done it.

But then, I'm pretty naive about all this sort of thing myself (I got caught out by Eaglemoss and cancelling that, I just cancelled the paypal payment, when I needed to email them).

There's always consumer advice and the like, feel free to ask them for help.


Personally, in all honesty, me as someone who politically sites himself as center right genuinely does not understand why someone would not bank with a Building Society like Nationwide, or the Coop, or the like.

I mean, the answer is probably Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice.

But really, again, as someone who is center right. Banks are there to screw you, their entire raison d'etre is finding the most economically efficient way to screw you just enough to stop you from going to the effort to leave them.

So, to tie it back, if your bank isn't helping you with this and stopping these payments, leave your bank.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Future War Cultist wrote:
Door to door salespeople should be outlawed. I’m sorry, I just fell for one and I’m going crazy trying to undo it. How difficult that’s proving to be is very worrying. I’m looking at this and I’m imagining what more vulnerable people must go through. Easy targets.

I've found the best way to deal with anyone door-knocking is that I tell them I'm busy and ask them to leave a card or leaflet and if I'm interested I'll contact them, if they don't have anything like that on them that's a bit of a red- or at least yellow-flag straight away IMO. At this stage, contact your bank and make sure any direct debits don't happen then contact the firm's office (Not the sale's person) and tell them you've changed your mind. If nothing else if you've cancelled your payments, they'll probably cancel any orders anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/28 01:01:36


 
   
Made in gb
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I feel way too young to be taken in by that kind of tactic. What a dick I am.

To steer it towards politics, could it be banned?


Probably difficult to ban, I’d say the best route would be to introduce a compulsory 14-day cooling off period for door-to-door sales, same as for insurance and distance selling, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it’s not about age, or any other personal factors really. They’re just really good at exploiting human behaviour. Just look at how many young people got taken in by PPI and payday loans.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/28 07:10:56


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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Nisse




Luton, UK

A few months back I had a typical builder-looking bloke (yes I am frightfully middle class) pull up outside my house and start trying to sell me block paving. His firm was doing a drive down the road so had all the equipment hired already and could "save me about 3k" if I agreed to have it done in the next few weeks. Told him I was busy, etc, but he just came back again so I told him I couldn't afford it, having (truthfully) just hired a gardener for a lot of work. He started talking about what an amazing deal I was missing out on, told me I should get a loan, or borrow from friends etc. In the end I said I always stick to budgets and had about £300 left for home improvements so if he could do it for that I'd be interested.... he then got annoyed at me telling me I was wasting his time talking about numbers like that.... I chose not to remind him he was trying the hard sell on me, I hadn't asked him to come round ever!

The point is that these people are often successful in breaking down initial resistance to a sale. Some people can feel rude or impolite by just shutting down an offer (I'm the same) and often reach for "I'm busy" or "I can't afford it" but there are obvious counters to those and once a salesperson has shut down those escape options it can look like agreement is the easiest way out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jadenim wrote:
Probably difficult to ban, I’d say the best route would be to introduce a compulsory 14-day cooling off period for door-to-door sales, same as for insurance and distance selling, etc.


Even then, you're hoping that the people you're dealing with are a legitimate company that would honour that. If you've paid cash to people who then just disappear then you're out of luck. Or if you have to get a CCJ against someone it's still time and effort that you have to put in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/28 08:45:28


“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Pretty sure you've got a 14 day period where you can change your mind and cancel the purchase, since this was a contract with a seller outside his or her place of business. They're also obliged to give you easily understood information about how you cancel the purchase before you commit to anything.

In a cruel twist of irony, I know this because it's in an EU consumer protection directive.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Riquende wrote:
The point is that these people are often successful in breaking down initial resistance to a sale. Some people can feel rude or impolite by just shutting down an offer (I'm the same) and often reach for "I'm busy" or "I can't afford it" but there are obvious counters to those and once a salesperson has shut down those escape options it can look like agreement is the easiest way out.


I find a response of "I don't own the property, hence it's not up to me" can shut down cold callers pretty quickly. There's nothing they can say then because you can just repeat the same response. If you are not authorised to action the works then they usually stop bothering you.

If you are feeling particularly vindictive or want a laugh then acting 'slightly insane' can be a laugh (but only afterwards otherwise it gives the game away).

For example if they ask about block paving, you respond with "I like cows". It's such a completely out there response that most people have no idea how to deal with it. Then regardless of what their response is just continue talking about cows ("Do you like cows, I think cows smell like dandelions") or whatever flavour of madness you invent. Basically it means you control the conversation and as long as you steer well away from block paving it can be a laugh seeing how they respond. Same goes of cold calling on the phone - sometimes I see how long I can string them along. Strangely I don't get many cold phone calls these days!




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/28 09:56:31


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

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-

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Door to door salespeople should be outlawed. I’m sorry, I just fell for one and I’m going crazy trying to undo it. How difficult that’s proving to be is very worrying. I’m looking at this and I’m imagining what more vulnerable people must go through. Easy targets.


I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope you haven't lost any cash.

Damn those salesmen!!!

They are nothing but pieces of

I'm lucky in the fact that I live in the middle of nowhere, and have a long drive with a pretty unobstructed view, so I can spot TV licence men, Jehovah witnesses or salespeople, and hide behind the curtains until they go.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/28 10:03:58


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in jp
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Whirlwind wrote:
 Riquende wrote:
The point is that these people are often successful in breaking down initial resistance to a sale. Some people can feel rude or impolite by just shutting down an offer (I'm the same) and often reach for "I'm busy" or "I can't afford it" but there are obvious counters to those and once a salesperson has shut down those escape options it can look like agreement is the easiest way out.


I find a response of "I don't own the property, hence it's not up to me" can shut down cold callers pretty quickly. There's nothing they can say then because you can just repeat the same response. If you are not authorised to action the works then they usually stop bothering you.

If you are feeling particularly vindictive or want a laugh then acting 'slightly insane' can be a laugh (but only afterwards otherwise it gives the game away).

For example if they ask about block paving, you respond with "I like cows". It's such a completely out there response that most people have no idea how to deal with it. Then regardless of what their response is just continue talking about cows ("Do you like cows, I think cows smell like dandelions") or whatever flavour of madness you invent. Basically it means you control the conversation and as long as you steer well away from block paving it can be a laugh seeing how they respond. Same goes of cold calling on the phone - sometimes I see how long I can string them along. Strangely I don't get many cold phone calls these days!






I have been temptee to start replying to sellers in japanese and see how long it lasts. Too bad i can't teli in advance if it's seller or not

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Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Thanks for the responses guys. They’re much appreciated.

I’ve just got off the phone to them and it’s all cancelled, and I’ll get the money back in 3-5 working days. Or at least that’s what they say. Their email address was a dud. That...concerned me a bit actually.

You know what really got me? I used to do a similar job to hers; mobile phone retention sales. In mine the people came to me rather than vice versa but it was still hell and still dependant upon meeting sales targets. Absolute nightmare, gave it up after 3 months. So I’m sympathetic to such types and they can ponce on that.

Maybe this all worked out for the best though. She got her sale. What happened afterwards isn’t her problem. I’ll get my money back. Everyone’s happy!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/28 11:18:12


 
   
Made in es
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 Future War Cultist wrote:

You know what really got me? I used to do a similar job to hers; mobile phone retention sales. In mine the people came to me rather than vice versa but it was still hell and still dependant upon meeting sales targets. Absolute nightmare, gave it up after 3 months. So I’m sympathetic to such types and they can ponce on that.


I have worked sales for most of my adult life, too and also feel quite sympathetic because I've done my share of door knocking (always BtB, though, never to anyone on their home).

My standard reply is something along the lines of "I don't appreciate being bothered by unannounced calls/knocking on my door, and as personal rule I blacklist every company that does that to me". This usually shuts their script about trying to steer the conversation towards the product/offer.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Vote Leave’s supposedly youth-focused sister group showed most of its Facebook advertising to older voters.

There is some interesting stuff in the news piece.

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