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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

jouso wrote:


A unique, government-issued number to be able to identify yourself to anyone who needs to know and you are actually you. To open an account or get a credit card, cash a cheque, utilities, vote, have a driving license or passport issued, enroll on higher education, take up employment, sign any kind of contract etc. the only acceptable way to ID yourself is the ID card or any other forms of ID which share the number (passport and driving license contain that number, too).

There's a reason why identity theft/fraud is much rarer in countries with an ID card system.

Is there evidence for this assertion? If IDs were the panacea for all fraud then it shouldn't happen at all. I can find an article back from 2012 about identity fraud

http://ig-legacy.ft.com/content/8423e214-0d4d-11e2-99a1-00144feabdc0#axzz5Muf6nAzd

and yes the UK does have the largest percentage (24%) by population of identity fraud, however conversely one of the lowest amounts per person that gets stolen on average (£1076). However some of those countries with IDs (Germany, Italy etc) have the highest amounts stolen on average per person (£28,666, £13180) even though the number of people affected is lower (15% and 14% respectively). Therefore from a value perspective these countries with ID cards have a much larger fraud problem then the UK does. I would postulate that the ID cards actually make things worse. People trust the ID card system so implicitly that when someone does get those details then they can run rampant on someones account because it is unquestioned. Whereas by not having ID cards people require multiple forms of evidence to say who you are for larger value items especially and hence the system is much more effective at stopping these types of activities. So hence the assertion that ID cards help prevent identity fraud is questionable.

In the US or UK I can open a bank account in your name just by taking utility bills from a mailbox or garbage bin and an easily forgeable student card. A government-issued ID is much more difficult and expensive to forge.

This study seems to agree that not having a centrally issued ID is a system weakness.

https://courses.cs.ut.ee/MTAT.07.022/2014_fall/uploads/Main/francesco-report-f14.pdf

Gibraltar is one British territory which has been using ID cards for a long time, and they seem pretty happy with their scheme.

Having worked in banking for a few years, no you can't. Not in the UK at least. You need at minimum another (signed) bank card and a form of proof for that signature to open a bank account. If you're a foreign student or national, you can open a basic bank account, but that is essentially nothing more than a saving account with a cash card. You get no debit or BAC's processes with that. So you need an already valid form of ID to get a fully functioning account.

But don't you need to open an account to get a bank card? How can you open an account in the UK if you need to present a bank card, when you only get a bank card after opening an account?
I still don't understand how someone could be against an ID card. It makes things a lot more quick and convenient (like when you want to buy alcohol or when you get arrested or basically do everything for which you need to prove your identity), and it is not like the government is using it to track you or anything (they have the internet and mobile phone networks for that), and all information on it is already known to the government anyway. Not to mention that in a country like the UK, there is little to fear from the government (beyond staggering incompetence of course).

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

jouso wrote:


A unique, government-issued number to be able to identify yourself to anyone who needs to know and you are actually you. To open an account or get a credit card, cash a cheque, utilities, vote, have a driving license or passport issued, enroll on higher education, take up employment, sign any kind of contract etc. the only acceptable way to ID yourself is the ID card or any other forms of ID which share the number (passport and driving license contain that number, too).

There's a reason why identity theft/fraud is much rarer in countries with an ID card system.

Is there evidence for this assertion? If IDs were the panacea for all fraud then it shouldn't happen at all. I can find an article back from 2012 about identity fraud

http://ig-legacy.ft.com/content/8423e214-0d4d-11e2-99a1-00144feabdc0#axzz5Muf6nAzd

and yes the UK does have the largest percentage (24%) by population of identity fraud, however conversely one of the lowest amounts per person that gets stolen on average (£1076). However some of those countries with IDs (Germany, Italy etc) have the highest amounts stolen on average per person (£28,666, £13180) even though the number of people affected is lower (15% and 14% respectively). Therefore from a value perspective these countries with ID cards have a much larger fraud problem then the UK does. I would postulate that the ID cards actually make things worse. People trust the ID card system so implicitly that when someone does get those details then they can run rampant on someones account because it is unquestioned. Whereas by not having ID cards people require multiple forms of evidence to say who you are for larger value items especially and hence the system is much more effective at stopping these types of activities. So hence the assertion that ID cards help prevent identity fraud is questionable.

In the US or UK I can open a bank account in your name just by taking utility bills from a mailbox or garbage bin and an easily forgeable student card. A government-issued ID is much more difficult and expensive to forge.

This study seems to agree that not having a centrally issued ID is a system weakness.

https://courses.cs.ut.ee/MTAT.07.022/2014_fall/uploads/Main/francesco-report-f14.pdf

Gibraltar is one British territory which has been using ID cards for a long time, and they seem pretty happy with their scheme.

Having worked in banking for a few years, no you can't. Not in the UK at least. You need at minimum another (signed) bank card and a form of proof for that signature to open a bank account. If you're a foreign student or national, you can open a basic bank account, but that is essentially nothing more than a saving account with a cash card. You get no debit or BAC's processes with that. So you need an already valid form of ID to get a fully functioning account.

But don't you need to open an account to get a bank card? How can you open an account in the UK if you need to present a bank card, when you only get a bank card after opening an account?

Ithink the bank card is the minimum not the only thing you can use - ie its easier if you already have a bank account.

No no, you need that as a minimum. As in if you have an already registered bank card, that can be accepted as a form of ID. If you're opening an account for the first time, you need a driving licence or a passport. You can't use utility bills, they're trash for all intents and purposes.

You probably don't have any utility bills if you don't have a bank account, because how would you pay them?

Another problem with using bills is that a lot of agencies require originals, not the paperless bills we all are encouraged to use these days.

I think the only actual paper bill I receive is the annual council tax bill.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You probably don't have any utility bills if you don't have a bank account, because how would you pay them?

Another problem with using bills is that a lot of agencies require originals, not the paperless bills we all are encouraged to use these days.

I think the only actual paper bill I receive is the annual council tax bill.

You'd be surprised actually. You can actually make transfers for bill payments through savings accounts, it's just more awkward. A lot of the older generation still tend to do this. Or at least they did when I still worked there.

Lots of bills can be paid from post offices etc using cash too.

The paperless thing usually gets me; I usually need to go into a bank and ask for a printed statement before doing anything that requires proof of address. Whilst that might not be my address (I can move without telling bank) it seems to be enough for every time I've needed it so far.

That's great for people who live reasonably near a branch of their bank.

Lots of banks are shttuing down, though, especially in more remote areas.

It's a vicious circle. The banks shut down and direct customers to digital services.

People start to use them because they don't have a choice.

The banks point to the increase in take-up of digital and say they need to shut more branches.

None of this is a brilliant justification for a national ID card, though.

ID cards? Don't need them. Don't want them.

There is a long tradition in Britain of being suspicious of authority, of uniforms, and of course, wretched ID cards. It's what set us apart from the continent for generations.

It's why some of us don't like soldiers on the streets, or our police turning into paramilitaries, or the intolerence shown to those who don't wear a poppy every November.

But they died for your freedom! Yeah, and I'm exercising that freedom not to wear one, so feth off!

We all know that in such a system, there is nothing worse than some jobsworth with a snifff of power making our lives misreable.

I think I can safely say each and every one of us has suffered that before from some petty pen pusher.

Not really. And it would be nothing more than an extra driving licence. You wouldn't even give it a second thought once it was issued.

Small card you can use unifiedly rather than having to mix&match other things which contains nothing new goverment doesn't already have. Yep. Reason to be suspicious.

Would make sense if it was with gps tracker or something but as it doesn#t it's just stupid

The last iteration in the UK which cost a fortune and was scrapped almost immediately, involved a huge database of everything. I'm all for the cards as they do make life easier, but against the database because of governmental malice/incompetence.

tneva82 wrote:
Small card you can use unifiedly rather than having to mix&match other things which contains nothing new goverment doesn't already have. Yep. Reason to be suspicious.

Would make sense if it was with gps tracker or something but as it doesn#t it's just stupid

GPS is not the only way to track people's movements. As it stands the police can get a decent track of your movements from your use of a mobile phone, credit and debit cards and so forth. However there are checks and balances and they need to apply to get that information.

A *mandatory* ID card scheme places all your details on a national register. To be useful such an ID card scheme needs to be linked to the database for them to be validated (otherwise it is just a glorified student ID card as there is no real way of actively check them). In such a circumstance you then have a continuous stream of data of individuals and the populace's movements. That's an incredibly powerful weapon for both information and manipulation - we only have to look at the issues with Facebook, the Wrexit and Trump campaign etc, to see just how valuable that information is. This is before you think about the value from selling such information (even partially). We already have a situation where they are asking doctors and teachers to perform home office duties. How long until it extends to having to provide such ID at hotels, B&Bs, purchasing train tickets, voting and so forth?

We should all have a right to anonymity and not have to worry that every major action is being recorded and that this can be exploited either on an individual or populace level.

I accept that it might help reduce the likelihood slightly of being affected by fraud (although if you are affected the impact might be higher in value). However I don't see that as a good reason to have mandatory collation of everyone's movements.

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Small card you can use unifiedly rather than having to mix&match other things which contains nothing new goverment doesn't already have. Yep. Reason to be suspicious.

Would make sense if it was with gps tracker or something but as it doesn#t it's just stupid

GPS is not the only way to track people's movements. As it stands the police can get a decent track of your movements from your use of a mobile phone, credit and debit cards and so forth. However there are checks and balances and they need to apply to get that information.

A *mandatory* ID card scheme places all your details on a national register. To be useful such an ID card scheme needs to be linked to the database for them to be validated (otherwise it is just a glorified student ID card as there is no real way of actively check them). In such a circumstance you then have a continuous stream of data of individuals and the populace's movements.

The government already has you on a register in the NI database. They know who you are, where you live, how much you make (or you take in pensions) and they assign you a unique number.



It doesn't need to be different from the Gibraltarian system which works since the 40s, is mandatory but is issued free of charge.

People seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. They seem to be objecting to ID cards on the basis of cost and government incompetence with past IT schemes.

You should be objecting to them on the basic principal of liberty.

The government is our servant, not the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The last iteration in the UK which cost a fortune and was scrapped almost immediately, involved a huge database of everything. I'm all for the cards as they do make life easier, but against the database because of governmental malice/incompetence.

Making life easier is exactly what they want.

The surrendering of liberty and freedom in a democracy is seldom done by armed men dragging you away in the middle of the night.

Rather, it's the people unwittingly being their own jailor.

As a historic example, the Gestapo wouldn't have been half as effective were it not for people voluntary surrending information on their neighbours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Not really. And it would be nothing more than an extra driving licence. You wouldn't even give it a second thought once it was issued.

No disrespect, but it's that attitude that makes my blood boil...

That's all a bit jingoistic.

I think the decision ought to be taken on practical grounds.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. They seem to be objecting to ID cards on the basis of cost and government incompetence with past IT schemes.

You should be objecting to them on the basic principal of liberty.

The government is our servant, not the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The last iteration in the UK which cost a fortune and was scrapped almost immediately, involved a huge database of everything. I'm all for the cards as they do make life easier, but against the database because of governmental malice/incompetence.

Making life easier is exactly what they want.

The surrendering of liberty and freedom in a democracy is seldom done by armed men dragging you away in the middle of the night.

Rather, it's the people unwittingly being their own jailor.

As a historic example, the Gestapo wouldn't have been half as effective were it not for people voluntary surrending information on their neighbours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Not really. And it would be nothing more than an extra driving licence. You wouldn't even give it a second thought once it was issued.

No disrespect, but it's that attitude that makes my blood boil...

Get over it. As has already been stated, the Government knows all your details and how you live your life already. National Insurance gives them all that and more. An ID would be nothing more than a consolidation of that info. Actually I'm going to go into a bit more detail here, as this junk about being your own jailor is pissing me off. I worked in banking, as I stated a page back and currently work in payroll. If I open my work laptop now, I can access 10's of thousands of peoples data in the UK. Everything from their financial history, addresses, spouses, P11D, P60, P45 history, everything in a few seconds. Now stop and think a moment. If I can access that in a few clicks, the Government has all that and more at their fingertips already. If you've ever worked, registered for a GP or anything official at all, the Government already has it and knows your history and can quite easily evaluate you. All this junk about liberty, being your own jailor etc is junk. They have this info already and shoving it on a card would change nothing other than giving people a more ready form to prove who they are.

There's also no need for one giant database of all your data. You get the ID card from some agency entitled to give it to you (city where you live, for instance). The card has basic info on it to prove you are who you say you are (picture, full name, DoB, social security number, maybe address).
Every other entity you interact with using the card only has the information on the card, plus whatever extra information you choose to give them in order to do whatever business you're doing with them in their own database (ie, a bank will have your account number with them, but not your medical history and vice versa for medical people, police will be able to call up your criminal record if any from their dartabase, etc).
Most of these agencies already have the database anyway. Having it accessible yourself through your ID card only expedites the process and actually gives you more control over who has access to what.

No need to imagine an ID card as the start of 1984. That's at best a poorly thought out hyperbole.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's all a bit jingoistic.

I think the decision ought to be taken on practical grounds.

Jingoism?

Freedom and liberty is the birth right of every man, woman, and child in this nation.

We have a police force that seems to be able to do what it wants, a nation that has more CCTV cameras per head of population than places like North Korea, and a government building a vast database of information on its citizens.

And you're talking about practical grounds?

I see it on twitter, I see it on facebook and 100 other places and it never ceases to amaze me how much info people just voluntary hand over, without thinking of the consequences of their actions.

It's naïve, terribly naive to think that governments and multi-nationals are benevolent and cuddly things. They are not.

Government should be at the peole's feet, not its throat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. They seem to be objecting to ID cards on the basis of cost and government incompetence with past IT schemes.

You should be objecting to them on the basic principal of liberty.

The government is our servant, not the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The last iteration in the UK which cost a fortune and was scrapped almost immediately, involved a huge database of everything. I'm all for the cards as they do make life easier, but against the database because of governmental malice/incompetence.

Making life easier is exactly what they want.

The surrendering of liberty and freedom in a democracy is seldom done by armed men dragging you away in the middle of the night.

Rather, it's the people unwittingly being their own jailor.

As a historic example, the Gestapo wouldn't have been half as effective were it not for people voluntary surrending information on their neighbours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Not really. And it would be nothing more than an extra driving licence. You wouldn't even give it a second thought once it was issued.

No disrespect, but it's that attitude that makes my blood boil...

Get over it. As has already been stated, the Government knows all your details and how you live your life already. National Insurance gives them all that and more. An ID would be nothing more than a consolidation of that info. Actually I'm going to go into a bit more detail here, as this junk about being your own jailor is pissing me off. I worked in banking, as I stated a page back and currently work in payroll. If I open my work laptop now, I can access 10's of thousands of peoples data in the UK. Everything from their financial history, addresses, spouses, P11D, P60, P45 history, everything in a few seconds. Now stop and think a moment. If I can access that in a few clicks, the Government has all that and more at their fingertips already. If you've ever worked, registered for a GP or anything official at all, the Government already has it and knows your history and can quite easily evaluate you. All this junk about liberty, being your own jailor etc is junk. They have this info already and shoving it on a card would change nothing other than giving people a more ready form to prove who they are.

Not a personal attack on you, but the fact that somebody like you could have access to that kind of information should scare the gak out of everybody.

ID cards are a symbol, a symbol of the yoke the government has been itching to put us under for years.

The last time we had ID cards, the war, resulted in them quickly being ditched as soon as the shooting stopped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
There's also no need for one giant database of all your data. You get the ID card from some agency entitled to give it to you (city where you live, for instance). The card has basic info on it to prove you are who you say you are (picture, full name, DoB, social security number, maybe address).
Every other entity you interact with using the card only has the information on the card, plus whatever extra information you choose to give them in order to do whatever business you're doing with them in their own database (ie, a bank will have your account number with them, but not your medical history and vice versa for medical people, police will be able to call up your criminal record if any from their dartabase, etc).
Most of these agencies already have the database anyway. Having it accessible yourself through your ID card only expedites the process and actually gives you more control over who has access to what.

No need to imagine an ID card as the start of 1984. That's at best a poorly thought out hyperbole.

The road to hell is always paved with good intentions...

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Small card you can use unifiedly rather than having to mix&match other things which contains nothing new goverment doesn't already have. Yep. Reason to be suspicious.

Would make sense if it was with gps tracker or something but as it doesn#t it's just stupid

GPS is not the only way to track people's movements. As it stands the police can get a decent track of your movements from your use of a mobile phone, credit and debit cards and so forth. However there are checks and balances and they need to apply to get that information.

A *mandatory* ID card scheme places all your details on a national register. To be useful such an ID card scheme needs to be linked to the database for them to be validated (otherwise it is just a glorified student ID card as there is no real way of actively check them). In such a circumstance you then have a continuous stream of data of individuals and the populace's movements. That's an incredibly powerful weapon for both information and manipulation - we only have to look at the issues with Facebook, the Wrexit and Trump campaign etc, to see just how valuable that information is. This is before you think about the value from selling such information (even partially). We already have a situation where they are asking doctors and teachers to perform home office duties. How long until it extends to having to provide such ID at hotels, B&Bs, purchasing train tickets, voting and so forth?

We should all have a right to anonymity and not have to worry that every major action is being recorded and that this can be exploited either on an individual or populace level.

I accept that it might help reduce the likelihood slightly of being affected by fraud (although if you are affected the impact might be higher in value). However I don't see that as a good reason to have mandatory collation of everyone's movements.

Umm. I have id card but you know what? It's used so little goverment can't really use it to track me. Credit card is better for that. Hell checking my facebook reveals more about what i do and where i am than my id card. Even this forum is better for tracking me than my id card! You seem to think police are asking people all the time the card to track but they don't.

What a bunch of fearmongering. Not having an ID card would have done nothing to stop the Gestapo, because the government already has all the personal information it needs to track you down unless you go off the grid in the name of 'freedom'. Your neighbours ratting you out has zero to do with an ID card either. You know what the Gestapo really did back when we had no ID cards? They just issued them and/or issued personalized ration cards, opened up municipal registers and found everything they needed (although the Gestapo and SD were pretty gak at their work by totalitarian state standards). Not having an ID card won't save you from Gestapo 2.0

ID cards are indeed a symbol, a symbol of how the people let its government operate. You really have to wonder what it says about the state of democracy if something as simplistic as an ID is a yoke of the government. Nothing that is on that card isn't already known and the information on it is very basic without any way to track its users. Its ridiculous hyperbole.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's all a bit jingoistic.

I think the decision ought to be taken on practical grounds.

Jingoism?

Freedom and liberty is the birth right of every man, woman, and child in this nation.

We have a police force that seems to be able to do what it wants, a nation that has more CCTV cameras per head of population than places like North Korea, and a government building a vast database of information on its citizens.

And you're talking about practical grounds?

I see it on twitter, I see it on facebook and 100 other places and it never ceases to amaze me how much info people just voluntary hand over, without thinking of the consequences of their actions.

It's naïve, terribly naive to think that governments and multi-nationals are benevolent and cuddly things. They are not.

Government should be at the peole's feet, not its throat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
People seem to be putting the cart before the horse here. They seem to be objecting to ID cards on the basis of cost and government incompetence with past IT schemes.

You should be objecting to them on the basic principal of liberty.

The government is our servant, not the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The last iteration in the UK which cost a fortune and was scrapped almost immediately, involved a huge database of everything. I'm all for the cards as they do make life easier, but against the database because of governmental malice/incompetence.

Making life easier is exactly what they want.

The surrendering of liberty and freedom in a democracy is seldom done by armed men dragging you away in the middle of the night.

Rather, it's the people unwittingly being their own jailor.

As a historic example, the Gestapo wouldn't have been half as effective were it not for people voluntary surrending information on their neighbours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Not really. And it would be nothing more than an extra driving licence. You wouldn't even give it a second thought once it was issued.

No disrespect, but it's that attitude that makes my blood boil...

Get over it. As has already been stated, the Government knows all your details and how you live your life already. National Insurance gives them all that and more. An ID would be nothing more than a consolidation of that info. Actually I'm going to go into a bit more detail here, as this junk about being your own jailor is pissing me off. I worked in banking, as I stated a page back and currently work in payroll. If I open my work laptop now, I can access 10's of thousands of peoples data in the UK. Everything from their financial history, addresses, spouses, P11D, P60, P45 history, everything in a few seconds. Now stop and think a moment. If I can access that in a few clicks, the Government has all that and more at their fingertips already. If you've ever worked, registered for a GP or anything official at all, the Government already has it and knows your history and can quite easily evaluate you. All this junk about liberty, being your own jailor etc is junk. They have this info already and shoving it on a card would change nothing other than giving people a more ready form to prove who they are.

Not a personal attack on you, but the fact that somebody like you could have access to that kind of information should scare the gak out of everybody.

ID cards are a symbol, a symbol of the yoke the government has been itching to put us under for years.

The last time we had ID cards, the war, resulted in them quickly being ditched as soon as the shooting stopped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
There's also no need for one giant database of all your data. You get the ID card from some agency entitled to give it to you (city where you live, for instance). The card has basic info on it to prove you are who you say you are (picture, full name, DoB, social security number, maybe address).
Every other entity you interact with using the card only has the information on the card, plus whatever extra information you choose to give them in order to do whatever business you're doing with them in their own database (ie, a bank will have your account number with them, but not your medical history and vice versa for medical people, police will be able to call up your criminal record if any from their dartabase, etc).
Most of these agencies already have the database anyway. Having it accessible yourself through your ID card only expedites the process and actually gives you more control over who has access to what.

No need to imagine an ID card as the start of 1984. That's at best a poorly thought out hyperbole.

The road to hell is always paved with good intentions...

Eugh...I wonder if you actually live in the real world? Or at least think about what you say? How do you think the world would function if this information wasn't available?

I'll admit that the siren call of sacrificing liberty and freedom in return for ease of life and order, is always a hard voice to resist. History proves that.

It's 80 years since the Holocaust, and 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union and East Germany.

Are people naive to think that human nature has changed in that time? Or that power doesn't corrupt?

We're moving towards a cashless society, vast databases of information on people, and possibly the government doling out money to people via a citizen's income.

So person X's only form of income is a citizen's income. Person X criticises government policy.

Government pulls the plug on his money. Conform or starve...

That is not beyond the realms of possibility...







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
What a bunch of fearmongering. Not having an ID card would have done nothing to stop the Gestapo, because the government already has all the personal information it needs to track you down unless you go off the grid in the name of 'freedom'. Your neighbours ratting you out has zero to do with an ID card either. You know what the Gestapo really did back when we had no ID cards? They just issued them and/or issued personalized ration cards, opened up municipal registers and found everything they needed (although the Gestapo and SD were pretty gak at their work by totalitarian state standards). Not having an ID card won't save you from Gestapo 2.0

ID cards are indeed a symbol, a symbol of how the people let its government operate. You really have to wonder what it says about the state of democracy if something as simplistic as an ID is a yoke of the government. Nothing that is on that card isn't already known and the information on it is very basic without any way to track its users. Its ridiculous hyperbole.

One of the reasons why the Holocaust was so effective in your nation was the vast amounts of meticulous records the Dutch government had on its citizens...

When the Germans took over The Netherlands, they seized those records, and the rest is history...

tneva82 wrote:


Umm. I have id card but you know what? It's used so little goverment can't really use it to track me.

Then the point of having one is?

Credit card is better for that. Hell checking my facebook reveals more about what i do and where i am than my id card. Even this forum is better for tracking me than my id card! You seem to think police are asking people all the time the card to track but they don't.

In the UK (noting you are in Japan so am unsure whether you are referencing a Japanese system I am unaware of) if the police wanted access to this information they would need to get a court order (probably not the correct wording but the principle stands). The government can't just track you through your use of the credit card otherwise.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:-

If you have a mandatory ID system that requires a link to a central database then there is a large amount of data on your activities specifically and as the populace. Unlike the credit card scenario you have no rights to protect that information as the government system has already gathered and you have given tacit approval for that data to be gathered. If your bank wanted to hand out the information you have a right for them not to and effectively anonymise you.

There is no reason for a central government to gather all your personal information and provide a system where they can track you 'day to day' activities whether that is to buy a mortgage or open a bank account. Every other system is not linked in that fundamental way. There are other registers of your details (tax, passport, voting register). But none of these are linked and more importantly none of these allow a government body to track on the large scale the movements of its population.

Oh my good God, do you want me to fold your tinfoil hat for you?? And what cashless society?? We can't even get rid of junky old savings books or cheques yet despite trying. Cash is not going anywhere for decades if not longer, if ever. I'm done, I can't have a serious argument with a conspiracy nut.

No he doesn't live in same world. Plus he's aiming for uk to burn with wrexit to boot. The more it burns the better.

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Umm. I have id card but you know what? It's used so little goverment can't really use it to track me.

Then the point of having one is?

Credit card is better for that. Hell checking my facebook reveals more about what i do and where i am than my id card. Even this forum is better for tracking me than my id card! You seem to think police are asking people all the time the card to track but they don't.

In the UK (noting you are in Japan so am unsure whether you are referencing a Japanese system I am unaware of) if the police wanted access to this information they would need to get a court order (probably not the correct wording but the principle stands). The government can't just track you through your use of the credit card otherwise.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:-

If you have a mandatory ID system that requires a link to a central database then there is a large amount of data on your activities specifically and as the populace. Unlike the credit card scenario you have no rights to protect that information as the government system has already gathered and you have given tacit approval for that data to be gathered. If your bank wanted to hand out the information you have a right for them not to and effectively anonymise you.

There is no reason for a central government to gather all your personal information and provide a system where they can track you 'day to day' activities whether that is to buy a mortgage or open a bank account. Every other system is not linked in that fundamental way. There are other registers of your details (tax, passport, voting register). But none of these are linked and more importantly none of these allow a government body to track on the large scale the movements of its population.

Yes they can. In fact it's a security feature to make sure your credit card isn't being used fraudulently. Banks will track usage and pull out any unusual transactions and usually call you to confirm it was you who made the transaction. They may have to get the order, but that wouldn't be hard for them if they had reasonable reason too.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So person X's only form of income is a citizen's income. Person X criticises government policy.

Government pulls the plug on his money. Conform or starve...

That is not beyond the realms of possibility...

It would probably me more along the lines of restricting Universal credit etc by not meeting certain conditions (e.g. the depressed and mentally unwell, unemployed, person being forced to go to the job centre every day etc.) and tracking that 'movement'

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Oh my good God, do you want me to fold your tinfoil hat for you?? And what cashless society?? We can't even get rid of junky old savings books or cheques yet despite trying. Cash is not going anywhere for decades if not longer, if ever. I'm done, I can't have a serious argument with a conspiracy nut.

Banks are actively shutting down branches and pushing people towards digital banking.

These are well known facts.

The amount of people paying by card over cash is rising year after year. Again, a well known fact.

My claim that we are moving towards a cashless society is based on hard facts.

I present hard facts, and yet, I'm the tinfoil hat wearer...

Right...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
No he doesn't live in same world. Plus he's aiming for uk to burn with wrexit to boot. The more it burns the better.

When did I ever say I wanted the UK to burn? I have never said that.

Even the most pro-Remain supporters on this thread have never accused me of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So person X's only form of income is a citizen's income. Person X criticises government policy.

Government pulls the plug on his money. Conform or starve...

That is not beyond the realms of possibility...

It would probably me more along the lines of restricting Universal credit etc by not meeting certain conditions (e.g. the depressed and mentally unwell, unemployed, person being forced to go to the job centre every day etc.) and tracking that 'movement'

I had forgotten about Universal Credit and all the suffering it had caused. The stories we hear are horrendous. IMO, that is only the beginning.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:


Yes they can. In fact it's a security feature to make sure your credit card isn't being used fraudulently. Banks will track usage and pull out any unusual transactions and usually call you to confirm it was you who made the transaction. They may have to get the order, but that wouldn't be hard for them if they had reasonable reason too.

The banks tracking unusual trnasactions is not the government tracking your activities however. You've already noted that they can report this to the police and that an order can be obtained. However that is on the pretext of individual suspicious behaviour and that your rights are considered when a request to investigate is undertaken. The government does not have access to all those transactions (unless all French banks are owned by the government?)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

My claim that we are moving towards a cashless society is based on hard facts.

We are, slowly and partially. Because it's so much more convenient (and often cheaper) than cash. It's great for tracking but that's not why it's happening or any way to force us to become 100% cashless.

When did I ever say I wanted the UK to burn? I have never said that.

Even the most pro-Remain supporters on this thread have never accused me of that.

You've said you're happy for the UK to go back to the stone age if it gets us away from the EU. That's more or less the same thing,

So I'll say it; you want the UK to burn for purely ideological reasons, and that your stance on ID cards is barely purely on emotion and paranoia rather than reality and practicality.

An ID card would make my life easier, without infringing on, well, anything.