Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Last reply, as I have to go to a meeting about GDPR. You know, that EU ruling that protects personal data.

They're pushing people towards digital data because it's safer and more efficient. You suffer fraud online, you can get your money back. You get mugged for cash, you might get some pity and that's it.

Banks and the Government have been pushing for cashless for years and yet we haven't even gotten ridden of our copper pieces yet. As I said earlier there was such an outrage over the idea of getting rid of cheques and even saving books the idea was pulled. The people I know in the industry would kill to get rid of cash. It would make their jobs so much easier. But cash won't go, because so many are resistant to change. Your facts are based on third party reporting, mine are from inside the industry.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'll admit that the siren call of sacrificing liberty and freedom in return for ease of life and order, is always a hard voice to resist. History proves that.

It's 80 years since the Holocaust, and 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union and East Germany.

Are people naive to think that human nature has changed in that time? Or that power doesn't corrupt?

We're moving towards a cashless society, vast databases of information on people, and possibly the government doling out money to people via a citizen's income.

So person X's only form of income is a citizen's income. Person X criticises government policy.

Government pulls the plug on his money. Conform or starve...

That is not beyond the realms of possibility...

Which can already easily happen without the piece of plastic. To pretend that the ID card is what separates us from totalitarianism is hopelessly naive. A bank decides to block your account today? Hopefully you have another one until they sort it out and you can access your money again. A utility company thinks mistakenly you're behind on payments? Enjoy living without power for a few days.

Again, if you're so worried about your freedom and being tracked the best thing you can do now is shut off your computer, cancel your internet, sell your house and go live in the hills with some subsistence farming. Almost everything you use can be far better employed to track you than an ID card which has data on it the government already has anyway.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
What a bunch of fearmongering. Not having an ID card would have done nothing to stop the Gestapo, because the government already has all the personal information it needs to track you down unless you go off the grid in the name of 'freedom'. Your neighbours ratting you out has zero to do with an ID card either. You know what the Gestapo really did back when we had no ID cards? They just issued them and/or issued personalized ration cards, opened up municipal registers and found everything they needed (although the Gestapo and SD were pretty gak at their work by totalitarian state standards). Not having an ID card won't save you from Gestapo 2.0

ID cards are indeed a symbol, a symbol of how the people let its government operate. You really have to wonder what it says about the state of democracy if something as simplistic as an ID is a yoke of the government. Nothing that is on that card isn't already known and the information on it is very basic without any way to track its users. Its ridiculous hyperbole.

One of the reasons why the Holocaust was so effective in your nation was the vast amounts of meticulous records the Dutch government had on its citizens...

When the Germans took over The Netherlands, they seized those records, and the rest is history...

Good, so if you know your history then you know an ID card has zero influence in the outcome. And why not having an ID card won't save you the next time totalitarianism raises its head.

And that wasn't why it was so effective in the Netherlands, what made it so effective was the people keeping those records and the police helping the Germans exploit that information. Other countries had good records as well, but the Germans simply didn't have the manpower without local cooperation. It also didn't help the Germans instituted a German civil government (with Nazi over military priorities) instead of military occupation like in Belgium or France, the fact that the Dutch Jewish population was for the most part concentrated in Amsterdam and that our country is gak for hiding in, its almost only flat fields in the most populated parts.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:


Yes they can. In fact it's a security feature to make sure your credit card isn't being used fraudulently. Banks will track usage and pull out any unusual transactions and usually call you to confirm it was you who made the transaction. They may have to get the order, but that wouldn't be hard for them if they had reasonable reason too.

The banks tracking unusual trnasactions is not the government tracking your activities however. You've already noted that they can report this to the police and that an order can be obtained. However that is on the pretext of individual suspicious behaviour and that your rights are considered when a request to investigate is undertaken. The government does not have access to all those transactions (unless all French banks are owned by the government?)

I'm in the UK actually (currently anyway). And you're assuming that there wouldn't be some safeguards in place that would prevent the Government from using tracking without some sort of court order if a integrated national database was created.

Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

I'm in the UK actually (currently anyway). And you're assuming that there wouldn't be some safeguards in place that would prevent the Government from using tracking without some sort of court order if a integrated national database was created.

You lose zero anonymity with card though. Goverment already has all that. Ic they want to track you dakkadakka is better tool than id card...

Id card you have same anonymity as before. Internet you pretty much lose it completely the moment you start using it...

FYI, you're not anonymous on here. It would be quite easy to find your data if anyone was really interested on finding out.

But a national database wouldn't be the Governments data. If the plan was set up, safeguards of some sort would have to be set in place, this is only a natural part of the procedure.

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
FYI, you're not anonymous on here. It would be quite easy to find your data if anyone was really interested on finding out.

I didn't say I was anonymous on this forum...what I said was that I get to choose where and when I am anonymous. If I'm buying a mortgage for example then it isn't the government's right to know how that has happened and when. That is between myself and the bank and so forth.

But a national database wouldn't be the Governments data. If the plan was set up, safeguards of some sort would have to be set in place, this is only a natural part of the procedure.

Are you saying that the 'government' doesn't have access to the tax data that is submitted and that they don't use that information? This comments seems to be more hopeful thinking than anything. Surely the safest safeguards is not to have that database in the first place?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

If you have a mandatory system that requires a check of that information then the database will log that access (whom, when, where, for what etc). That gives an awful lot of information, accessing a database is a two way stream of data, not one. If you just want a picture post card then that isn't particularly worth anything as there is no way to validate that ID. Most people will only see all but the most obvious issues with a forgery (ask yourself when was the last time you checked what a real £10 note should look like and what all the details are?)

Id card has nothing new goverment already doesn't have. Thus if you are worried about your anonymity as reason for opposing id card YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST! Goverment has all you were worried about already. Your precious anomity is already gone. Poof. No more there. Probaly from the moment you were born from.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Oh my good God, do you want me to fold your tinfoil hat for you?? And what cashless society?? We can't even get rid of junky old savings books or cheques yet despite trying. Cash is not going anywhere for decades if not longer, if ever. I'm done, I can't have a serious argument with a conspiracy nut.

Small organisations need cheques - getting rid of them just causes them more problems as they have difficulty with credit cards. Its good for the big organisations and banks not so good for little ones. its like automation which is destroying jobs especially low wage/first jobs and leaving nothing in exchange for those trying to enter the job market..

My local supermarket is phasing out tills in favour of auto checkouts, more jobs gone, lost customer service desk, banks are going the same way.

Cash is much better for me - I take money out as i need it - when its gon its gone so getting into debt is much harder but getting into debt is what the same banks nad large organisations want..

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

If you have a mandatory system that requires a check of that information then the database will log that access (whom, when, where, for what etc). That gives an awful lot of information, accessing a database is a two way stream of data, not one. If you just want a picture post card then that isn't particularly worth anything as there is no way to validate that ID. Most people will only see all but the most obvious issues with a forgery (ask yourself when was the last time you checked what a real £10 note should look like and what all the details are?)

But where they check it is already government associated, they already had that info on file even before we introduced the ID card system. Saying the above gives an awful lot of information when that check is preformed by a government connected institution anyway is meaningless, they could track you just as easily without the card if they wanted to, unless you start lying about who you are. Plus it isn't standard procedure to look you up in the government database, they don't have that access for normal employees, its just veryfying your identity. Private business can't access that database regardless.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Oh my good God, do you want me to fold your tinfoil hat for you?? And what cashless society?? We can't even get rid of junky old savings books or cheques yet despite trying. Cash is not going anywhere for decades if not longer, if ever. I'm done, I can't have a serious argument with a conspiracy nut.

Small organisations need cheques - getting rid of them just causes them more problems as they have difficulty with credit cards.

No they don't. No company needs to use cheques now. They only ones that keep cheques do it because of ludditeism.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

So rather than id card police will ask some other form of identification.

Benefit is not having to carry tons of different identification methods. One for some use, another yet another, third still more...i presume you have heard term standards? Rather handy thing allowing one be used rather than having tons of different things for same thing. Allows things like watching different tv channels with same tv. Rather than pay for 10 things you could pay just for 1 for more convenience while not giving goverment anything they don#t already have

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Oh my good God, do you want me to fold your tinfoil hat for you?? And what cashless society?? We can't even get rid of junky old savings books or cheques yet despite trying. Cash is not going anywhere for decades if not longer, if ever. I'm done, I can't have a serious argument with a conspiracy nut.

Small organisations need cheques - getting rid of them just causes them more problems as they have difficulty with credit cards.

No they don't. No company needs to use cheques now. They only ones that keep cheques do it because of ludditeism.

I am not talking about companies but charities, small violunteer organisations and the like which I deal with.

Good for the bank does not automatically meen good for the indivudal - in fact often the opposite.

Benefit is not having to carry tons of different identification methods.

On the rare occassion I need any from of ID I just use my drivers licence - never needed anything else - why do I need another card in my wallet and yet another cost to us taxpayers

Last reply, as I have to go to a meeting about GDPR. You know, that EU ruling that protects personal data.

GDPR - yeah that thing - So much much time and effort has been wasted on that thing recently at work - total PITA.

 Steve steveson wrote:


The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

Passports are optional as are Driving licences. In fact you can go your whole life without ever driving (and many people in big urban areas do). Furthermore you are not required to carry either with you at all times; and indeed the high black market value of a UK passport means many advise you not to carry it unless required/you have too.
If you never go abroad you could well get away without a passport and many lower level jobs don't require lots of ID proof to get employed and if you're self employed you won't need them either.

A mandatory ID card would be, well, mandatory and not optional; its not tied to anything, but proving ID and who you are. It's not just having a bit of card with your name on; but also a legal and cultural shift in attitudes as it would steadily enable police/authorities to request/demand to see your ID not just ask you your details.
It would also like come with a requirement to update your address every time you move and your contact details as well; so it would be a running record of where you've lived and contact points for you.



Also on the subject of cheques a lot of self employed people still take them. Those in the countryside also make use of them as its much easier than having to go all the way into town to draw out money to pay a repair bill or gardener (self employed). Until the digital age brings 100% free card payments to every single mobile phone chances are the cheque will still exist. Even then it will still linger around for a long while; but it will steadily become more of a pain to use.
Already with many bank branches closing its more of a pain; though thankfully ou can still get them processed in the post office (takes longer though)

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

No they can't, again they aren't allowed by law to ask you that, identification duty, not carrying one.
And my passport is my ID! An ID card is just a cheaper option if you don't want a passport.

Convincing arqument against id card claiming police would do something that's specifically forbidden by law. And before somebody claims law can be changed for tyranny...well yes they can but id card doesn#t allow it. They could just as well change it so police can put you on jail just for fun. If goverment wants to get nasty id card neither helps nor opposes that. It has same data goverment has and if goverment wants you to identify then you identify yourself one way or another. Or if goverment is dictatorship some people here fears they just jail you id card or not

Just to nip this in the bud, our ID card doesn't have any adress info on it and they don't request contact details either.

To change the form of today's mutual incomprehension between the UK and continental Europe, the latest wheeze emerging from the government is a blind Brexit.

Robert Peston, ITN wrote:My understanding is that one of the Brexit campaign’s two big beasts, the environment secretary Michael Gove, has arrived at the perhaps startling view that the least worst option now is what some are styling “a blind Brexit”.

This would be to recognise that parliament is too divided and too much time has already been wasted for a detailed plan for our future relationship with the EU to be negotiated and agreed in time for the summits in October or December.

Instead the withdrawal agreement - which formalises a default plan to keep open the Northern Ireland border and around £40bn of divorce payments by the UK - would be ratified by EU leaders, together with the highest level guiding principles for the UK’s future relationship with the EU.

In other words, we would leave the EU not having a clue whether Brexit would ultimately involve membership of the single market like Norway, or the customs union like Turkey, or associate status like Ukraine or having a Canadian style free trade agreement.

To repeat, Brexit on 29 March 2019 would be blind.

Cunningly this means that both the UK and EU can keep all their mutually incompatible red-lines intact. More importantly it means that the Tory party can avoid a showdown between its Leave and Remain wings until after Brexit is a done deal. The economy may not be so rosy after at least another year of uncertainty, and politics will remain hellish, but it keeps everything just short of an actual crisis.

The ultimate in kicking the can.

And my passport is my ID! An ID card is just a cheaper option if you don't want a passport.

I dont have or need a passport.

I don't need an ID card - if I have to use something my driving licence has always done - no extra cost either directly to me or another vastly expensive government project.

I did not know tinfoil hats were such a popular fashion trend in the UK. This discussion on ID cards sheds an entirely new light on Brexit for me.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

They could not just stop you. The police can only stop you if they have a valid reason (that means only if you do something wrong), if they stop you without a valid reason they are violating the law and could get fired.
So let's say the police want to give you a fine. How do you prove your identity to them if you don't have a passport or driving license, and if you don't have an ID card either?


And for the last time, nobody could use an ID card to track you! It would be impossible. If you really are so paranoid about being tracked, you should throw away your mobile phone, computer and all other electronic equipment right now, because that can actually be used to track you, and it is in fact likely that you are being tracked through your mobile phone right as we speak (say thanks to Google and Apple for that).

I personally have always been against ID cards on the basis that the minute a country has them; laws mandating their production on demand appear five seconds later. If you go to Germany, to France, to wherever; the police can demand that you show them your ID card. If you cannot or refuse to do so, they can then take you on a little trip down to the police station. Inevitably, this ends up being a nice little way police can use to try and deter political 'undesirables' or round up tramps and immigrants. Not to mention the inevitable power thirsty little officials (there's always a goodly number in any country) who try and use it as a way of wielding power for slightly sadistic fun or exercising basic discrimination against people.

You can argue that all these sorts of abuses I mentioned can be deterred by just carrying your ID at all times I suppose; but I personally thoroughly resent and oppose the concept that I should have to carry a bit of plastic or be liable for arrest. As an independent citizen of my country, I hold firm to the belief that who I am, where I'm going, and what I'm doing is entirely my own business and nothing to do with the government (or any of their employees) outside of very specific scenarios. The state is the servant of the people, and not their master.

As an example several years back, a police car stopped by me and some friends and queried what we were up to. I asked them why they were curious, and they responded that they'd heard of a group very roughly fitting our description committing a crime several streets over a few hours prior. We then politely chose to give them a sketchy outline of our movements, and the policemen nodded, thanked us, and carried on their way. No ID was demanded, I had the ability to clarify what the officers were after before choosing to answer, and everyone got along famously. To my mind, that's how things should be.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Mighty plastic card indeed. Just by piece of plastic with zero data goverment doesn't already have you lose all your freedom! The horror!

If you are so worried about freedom against goverment why you would be crazy enough to be here chatting about that? Internet is infinently bigger danger for that than id card

Because that is my choice as to when and where I am anonymous? That is the whole point of civilian rights, to allow you to have the option as to how you present yourself to the world.

Again, how does an ID card enable the government to know where you are if they can't ask you for it unless you have done something wrong which would already result in the police identifying you. Its not a carrying duty. There is no way to track an ID card.

The "Nothing to hide nothing to fear" argument has been proven wrong time and again. Just look at the number of stop and search's that result in nothing. The police could very much stop and ask you to show your ID.

Lets look at it the other way, what is the advantage for the huge implementation cost? What advantage does it have over a passport or drivers licence as a form of ID?

I do think there is a valid point here.

If the police were given the right to stop and ask you for your national ID card, you can bet a lot more "not properly British" people woold be stopped for "wearing loud tie in built-up area" and the like. THis would create the same kind of racial tension as the "suss" laws.

However, it would not be necessary to do this. The ID card could be required to be produced only on occasions such as the ones when we currently have to produce valid ID -- renting a flat, joining a new job, and so on.

Having said that, the only reason for these occasions of presenting ID is the "hostile environment" on immigrants.

Ahahahahahahahaahahahaha!!!

Sorry. I have lived in finland 36 years and randomly i have been asked to show drivers licence once in my life.


The minute as well. Anybody claiming that is living in a fantasy world

And any goverment who would do that could just as well randomly demand prove your identity one way or another or straight to jail. Id card or lack of it doesn't help or prevent draconian goverment

 Mr Morden wrote:

And my passport is my ID! An ID card is just a cheaper option if you don't want a passport.

I dont have or need a passport.

I don't need an ID card - if I have to use something my driving licence has always done - no extra cost either directly to me or another vastly expensive government project.

Sure, but some people have neither a driving license or a passport, an ID card fills that gap and the government here in some cases doesn't accept driving licenses as a valid ID. Frequently in relation to social benefits, taxes or re-requesting your citizen code.

 Whirlwind wrote:


I didn't say I was anonymous on this forum...what I said was that I get to choose where and when I am anonymous. If I'm buying a mortgage for example then it isn't the government's right to know how that has happened and when. That is between myself and the bank and so forth.

This is legitimately a hilarious response!

Even if only because it implies you think that the government would not get to know about your mortgage. Now I am not entirely certain about the british system, but I'dd wager the government gets to know at least: when you bought your mortgage, what you used for colleteral (particularly if said colleteral happens to be a house or some other form of real estate, though planes and ships could also be used), how high your mortgage is, and at which bank you bought said mortgage. So do tell, how exactly do you think you'll be anonymous when buying a mortgage? Short of wearing a Guy Fawkes mask during the entire process, of course.

tneva82 wrote:

Sorry. I have lived in finland 36 years and randomly i have been asked to show drivers licence once in my life.

It must be nice to not appear suspicious for no reason or fault of your own. Sadly, not every person of colour has that pleasure.

 Ketara wrote:
I personally have always been against ID cards on the basis that the minute a country has them; laws mandating their production on demand appear five seconds later. If you go to Germany, to France, to wherever; the police can demand that you show them your ID card.

IDK your experience but in Germany they can't demand it either, there is no legal obligation, its an identification requirement, not a carrying one. Afaik France is the same. What you describe is an abuse of power which has nothing to do with ID. What you use to start of a description of abuse of power is already abuse itself.