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As I've said before, the solution to the NHS doctor and nurse crisis is staring us in the face, and if Parliament grants me emergency authority, I'll dig out my passport and fix it this week.
Fill up a black bag full of visas, fly out to India, grab 50,000 doctors, jet them back, and problem solved.
This sort of view really annoys me. Nothing personal DINLT but effectively what you are proposing is to screw over people in another part of the world simply because they are "out or sight, out of mind". It's all very well doing this, except of course, that the people it will effect are in an even worse position than even the poorest in this country. That we like to be consider nice and left leaning as long as it benefits us at the expense of them. It's just another type of exploitation that we are continuing comparable to the empire days. Instead of raw resources it is instead people whilst we happily ignore the consequences on those that experience the consequences of it. If we don't have enough doctors then we need to consider why that is and make it a more attractive environment (such as not exploiting their working hours).
What I find interesting about DINLT's proposal, is that it's so laughably unworkable. Consider: the UK has roughly 1 doctor for every 235 people. Meanwhile, India has 1 doctor for every 1300-1700 people. And he thinks he is just going to wave a british passport in front of them and get them to instantly go to the UK?
That is without even going into the amount of selection required for such a ridiculous scheme, because you are going to want to select and check their background. After all, who can say that DINLT brings back actual doctors and nurses when he returns with planes full of Indians? Another question that is bound to come up: are said doctors and nurses properly qualified? If they need some additional education or training, who is going to pay for that? how long will that take? and how will that affect their employment contracts?
Or am I just being dumb and will this all magically sort itself the moment the planes touch the ground in merry ole England?
Well at least they can fill the hole left by EU doctors and nurses that will leave the UK after Brexit!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/03 21:21:12
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
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2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP)
Kilkrazy wrote:The high street situation will correct itself. As the high street dies, so too business rates die. Eventually the govermnent will be forced actually to tax out of town businesses at a realistic rate.
I like the "eventually" (and I fully expect it at some point) but we all know who will suffer the consequences while all this is happening over a few years/decades.
As I've said before, the solution to the NHS doctor and nurse crisis is staring us in the face, and if Parliament grants me emergency authority, I'll dig out my passport and fix it this week.
Fill up a black bag full of visas, fly out to India, grab 50,000 doctors, jet them back, and problem solved.
So you intend to fix a problem in the UK by screwing over a different part of the world, because clearly those 50.000 Indian doctors aren't needed in ... India.
Without diving too deep into plan of yours (which also reeks of old British imperialism, good riddance), I find it hilarious that an adamant Brexiteer as yourself wants to solve a problem in the UK by ... importing 50.000 foreigners.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/03 23:55:12
Whereas if we stayed in the EU; we wouldn't need so many doctors as we wouldn't be chasing away existing doctors that have been here for years.
Brexit was for all but a small percentage, all about getting rid of foreigners. Replacing white English speaking doctors with fresh Indian imports isn't going to go down well with the electorate.
That we need migrants is neither here nor there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 07:19:57
I had a thought on the tax thing; Amazon themselves commented that it because we don’t tax revenue, so what if we did?
There’s ways I think you could do it; one is just flat stop taxing profit and tax revenue instead, problem is this could be very painful for businesses with low margins (particularly if they don’t have large reserves, like smaller independents).
Second would be to use it as a lever to encourage UK based businesses; if you report let’s say 75% of your profit within UK territory (where it can be taxed), you get taxed as normal. If it’s less than that, you get taxed on revenue in the UK, albeit at a lower rate. This would still allow smaller companies to have some overseas operations (GW would be an example).
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Without diving too deep into plan of yours (which also reeks of old British imperialism, good riddance), I find it hilarious that an adamant Brexiteer as yourself wants to solve a problem in the UK by ... importing 50.000 foreigners.
I agree about the point on imperialism. However to be fair on DINLT I don't think he has ever objected to immigration or as a reason for Wrexit. Others have but not him. For DINLT it's more about an ideology that we don't need the EU and are better off without it (summarising). I don't think this is correct, the British Empire is long gone and any influence occurs from our ability to influence our allies through institutions such as the EU. Being isolated is only going to make us poorer socially, politically and economically.
It does however show a problem with the Wrexit referendum. Because there was no stated aims to vote on leave then different people could make up whatever they wanted which meant that different factions voted to Leave but for different things, whereas remaining meant only one thing. Hence leave got a whole gamut from the neo-nazi's, to racists, to bigots, to imperialists, to we just like to blame the EU, to we can make better trade deals, to it was better in the 60's, to blinkered it was greener in the past etc. It's one of the arguments for a new referendum once people know what they are getting...there is no way for Leavers to lie to the populace.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: I had a thought on the tax thing; Amazon themselves commented that it because we don’t tax revenue, so what if we did?
There’s ways I think you could do it; one is just flat stop taxing profit and tax revenue instead, problem is this could be very painful for businesses with low margins (particularly if they don’t have large reserves, like smaller independents).
Second would be to use it as a lever to encourage UK based businesses; if you report let’s say 75% of your profit within UK territory (where it can be taxed), you get taxed as normal. If it’s less than that, you get taxed on revenue in the UK, albeit at a lower rate. This would still allow smaller companies to have some overseas operations (GW would be an example).
The issue with tax is that we work in a global world. It allows the multinational companies to move money around to avoid tax.
My view is that the tax system should be changed to the following (simplistically):-
A. Take total global profit of the parent company.
B. Determine all sales undertaken globally (parent and subsidiaries)
C. Determine all sales undertaken in a respective country (parent and subsidiaries)
D. Determine percentage of sales in the applicable country C / D * 100
E. Multiply that percentage (D) to the global profit (A) to determine profit on that Country (and then take a tax percentage)
This way simplistically the profit is proportional to your sales in a country. The higher the sales the higher percentage of the profit you get to tax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 08:42:00
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I would say to whirlwind and others that yes, it's not a good thing to be plundering the third world for doctors and nurses, as those countries will obviously need them.
But people are overlooking human nature here. People will always want to better themselves and enjoy a better life.
As an example, if an Indian doctor is getting 10 grand a year in India, but the USA or Germany, or the UK or whoever, is offering 80 grand a year. They will move.
Most people move in those circumstances. Happens all the time. It's not unique to the UK.
That's reality, and we need doctors, so why not make it easier to facilitate something that happens anyway?
So they need extra training? So what.
In a 20 year career, an average doctor will save dozens, if not hundreds of lives. That obviously pays for itself. The training money is cash well spent.
And on a final note, I didn't vote Brexit because I'm anti-Immigration.
We need the best wherever they may be. Why should the EU citizens get preference over an Indian surgeon, or a Peruvian engineer, or whatever?
As I've said before, the solution to the NHS doctor and nurse crisis is staring us in the face, and if Parliament grants me emergency authority, I'll dig out my passport and fix it this week.
Fill up a black bag full of visas, fly out to India, grab 50,000 doctors, jet them back, and problem solved.
So you intend to fix a problem in the UK by screwing over a different part of the world, because clearly those 50.000 Indian doctors aren't needed in ... India.
Without diving too deep into plan of yours (which also reeks of old British imperialism, good riddance), I find it hilarious that an adamant Brexiteer as yourself wants to solve a problem in the UK by ... importing 50.000 foreigners.
I'm not anti-immigrant. It's silly to think that in a globalised world, you can keep people out. How can I be anti-immigrant when I'm calling for 50,000 non-white people to turn up?
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody in Britain who'd object to more doctors and nurse turning up, white or no white. If you're laying half dead on a hospital bed, you want cured, you've not giving two hoots for ethnicity.
I want the best of the best for Britain, from all points of the compass, from every continent, be they white, blue, black, green, or florescent yellow!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote: Whereas if we stayed in the EU; we wouldn't need so many doctors as we wouldn't be chasing away existing doctors that have been here for years.
Brexit was for all but a small percentage, all about getting rid of foreigners. Replacing white English speaking doctors with fresh Indian imports isn't going to go down well with the electorate.
That we need migrants is neither here nor there.
We need root and branch reform. Getting doctors from India would be a stop gap until we start churning out our own doctors. We should coordinate this policy with higher education, joined up thinking and all that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: With respect to the Indian proposal, there are several issues:
1. We already refused visas for several thousand very well qualified Indian doctors on the Learn/Earn/Return scheme.
2. We don't want more foreigners. The purpose of Brexit is to have fewer of them.
3. The advantage of Brexit is that having fewer foreigners, we can encourage more British people to go to medical school.
We've got some 'soft' cultural power with India, via the shared interest of cricket and the huge Indian diaspora in Britain. Plus, the Indian middle classes contain huge numbers of English speakers.
They are a demographic that is massively growing. Our tourist industry should target them, our immigration policy should be targeting their skilled professionals, and business should be rolling out the red carpet for them. Their purchasing power is huge. Some of them seem to like Britain.
Better to deal with a democracy like India than China. Plus, India obviously matches China's population.
I've said it before. India, that's the future. Send forth the cargo ships.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/04 10:59:35
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Dexeu discussing cancelling police leave for two months in case of ‘no deal’ Brexit backlash All police leave could be cancelled in the two months after Brexit
Plans to ask police chiefs to cancel officers’ leave in the two months after Brexit have been discussed in Whitehall as the government readies itself for the worst case scenario of social unrest caused by a No Deal. i understands that officials at the Department of Exiting the European Union (Dexeu) are contemplating the move as they prepare to issue guidance to individuals and businesses over how they should prepare for a chaotic British exit from the EU next March. One MP protested last night that the police should be fighting crime rather than coping with a “no-deal shambles”.
While Brexiteers will dismiss the plan as scare-mongering, it comes after a raft of recent warnings of the consequence of a no-deal Brexit. These include the government stockpiling food to cope with food shortages, and a weekend report – later denied by Downing Street – that the army was on standby to cope with disorder.
Food shortages could happen because Britain is on a just-in-time import basis which could be scuppered by custom delays. Reports from a series of Freedom of Information requests this week also showed that many local authorities are preparing for civil unrest and while impact reports obtained by Sky from Kent County Council found it was preparing for 13 miles of the M20 near Dover to be a lorry park until at least 2023. A report by civil servants reached a conclusion similar to the local councils’ in June. In a worst case scenario, the port of Dover would “collapse on day one,” it said. Officials would have to charter planes to airlift medicines into the country, and within days petrol would be in short supply. Within two weeks, supermarket shelves would be bare. Half our food is imported, of which 80 per cent comes from Europe via Dover.
A spokeswoman for the Home Office said: “The Police have not been asked to cancel leave. The Government is focused on securing a good Brexit deal which works in the interest of the UK and the EU.” Home Office sources pointed out that the government had no authority to intervene in the staffing arrangements of local forces. The government is preparing to issue two tranches of plans setting out proposals for no-deal planning over the next month. The Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, said it had not been made aware of the proposals. The Labour MP Chris Leslie, a former Cabinet Office minister for civil contingencies and emergency planning, said: “Nobody voted for a chaotic or dangerous Brexit. Nobody voted for their safety to be put at risk or for food supplies to be threatened or medicines to be stockpiled. Public safety “It is truly shocking that all of these things could now happen and that a botched Brexit could even end up threatening public safety. “Our police should be catching criminals, not preparing to handle a post-Brexit shambles.” Any such move is unlikely to be kindly received by police officers. Met Police officers alone saw 189,000 cancelled rest days last year because of “unprecedented” demands on the force. Officers had been allowed to carry rest days into 2018 and 2019, said Deputy Met Commissioner Craig Mackey.
Global Future, working with Populus, then asked the public how they felt about the four deals we analyse. In particular we asked whether they thought the overall cost of each deal represented ‘too high a price’ to leave the EU. In addition, we asked Leave voters whether each deal represented a deal that was as good or better than they had hoped for when casting their vote, or worse. In both cases the results were emphatic:
Leavers and the public at large reject every Brexit deal modelled by government, and ministers’ own preferred scenario (EEA, FTA, WTO, a bespoke deal), as Too High a Price to leave the EU by enormous majorities.
The vast majority of Leavers regard each deal as worse than they had hoped when voting to Leave the EU.
Finally, we asked voted, if forced to choose which deal they would like to leave the EU both Leavers
(narrowly), and the public at large (by a significant distance), chose the EEA model (the so-called Norway option) as their preferred deal of those on the table.
All these dire predictions if we leave the EU on WTO terms are like the Millennium Bug all over again. And about as realistic.
But that's the Brexiteers in a nutshell : no idea of how things actually are, just some entirely ludicrous fantasy about how they think things should or do work, reality be damned.
East Sussex council set to cut services to bare legal minimum
Tory-run authority reveals plan to avoid following Northamptonshire into bankruptcy
Fresh evidence of the funding crisis facing local government has emerged after a second Tory-run council said it was preparing to cut back services to the bare legal minimum to cope with a cash shortfall that could leave it bankrupt within three years.
East Sussex county council said growing financial pressures and rising demand for social care were forcing it to restrict services to the most vulnerable residents only. Under this “core offer”, many of its services will be severely cut or shut down completely.
It said families and neighbourhood voluntary groups would have to take increasing responsibility for supporting those older people who would no longer qualify for social care support from the council under the new arrangements.
East Sussex’s outline of its strategic approach, revealed in a council paper last month, appears to have been adopted wholesale by Tory-run Northamptonshire county council, which this week adopted an emergency cuts plan to reduce services to skeleton levels as it attempts to close a £70m black hole in its budget during the next few months.
Northamptonshire’s financial collapse has been portrayed by ministers as being down to chronic mismanagement rather than lack of government funding. However, East Sussex is regarded as a stable and well-run council, giving authority and credibility to its shock warnings of the consequences of underfunding.
East Sussex said that without more government funding, stripping services back to a core offer would be the best it could afford to deliver, although it added that without a sea change in local authority finances even this most basic model of municipal service might be unaffordable by 2021.
The government insists that the funding arrangements for local government strike a balance between relieving the pressure on councils and keeping council tax bills down. A spokesperson for the Ministry of Housing, Communities & Local Government said: “We are providing local authorities with £90.7bn over the next two years to meet the needs of their residents. We are also giving them the power to retain the growth in business rates income and are working with local government to develop a funding system for the future based on the needs of different areas.”
It is understood a number of other English county councils are drawing up core offer budget scenarios as they prepare for an increasingly tight financial future. Councils’ collective funding shortfall will reach nearly £6bn by next year. “The core offer is going to be increasingly the norm,” one local government insider said.
East Sussex said it was reluctant to comment on its core offer strategy, but confirmed it would be further developed over the next few weeks. Its chief executive, Becky Shaw, has insisted the core offer “paints an honest picture of the minimum that we realistically need to provide in the future”.
A cabinet paper written by Shaw said that having made £129m of savings since 2010 and facing a budget deficit of up to £46m within three years, the council would have to “concentrate services on those in most urgent need and will not be able to maintain a comprehensive offer of universal services to all residents”.
Although it regarded extra funding as essential to the council’s survival, the paper was gloomy about the prospects of a swift government intervention to ease councils’ financial crisis, saying that Brexit and the announcement of extra funding for the NHS had limited ministers’ scope to address wider social issues.
Although the government has promised a review of how council funding is shared out and a green paper on social care funding for older people, the paper said any changes would not be in place until 2021 “which leaves us with difficult decisions to make about the services we provide with our remaining resources”.
It said the county’s rapidly ageing population – a third of residents will be over 65 by 2031– meant it could not maintain current levels of care. “Our community will therefore need to take more responsibility for looking after themselves and each other to keep everyone safe and independent as long as possible.”
The paper said some statutory services, such as home-to-school transport for schoolchildren, while crucial in a largely rural area, were prohibitively expensive and financially unsustainable in the currently climate, and it would press ministers to lift some of the duties it currently placed on councils.
“For example, the £8m we are obliged to spend on concessionary fares for older people would provide care packages to allow 700 of the most vulnerable people in this group to continue live independently,” the paper stated.
It said rising levels of poverty in the county had resulted in an increase in child neglect cases. Although the council had deployed “early help” services to successfully support families and prevent the surge in child protection cases seen elsewhere in the country, these services were now at risk.
East Sussex’s core offer proposals, which were published and discussed at a meeting of senior councillors last month, appear to have been heavily plagiarised by Northamptonshire as it searches for a solution to its dire financial problems.
Whole passages of the East Sussex paper appear to have been cut and pasted into a discussion paper by the Northamptonshire county council leader, Matthew Golby, which was presented to an extraordinary meeting of the council held to discuss its dire finances on Wednesday evening.
There are minor differences of emphasis and tone in the Golby paper, which may reflect the greater urgency and scale of the crisis facing Northamptonshire. For example, while both versions promised to engage with local people, Northants added the rider that it would do so only “where required to by legislation”.
Similarly, while East Sussex promised that its core offer would “give the best possible customer service”, Northamptonshire, which is technically insolvent and faces having to make unprecedented levels of cuts, adapts this to the more downbeat “a reasonable level of customer service, within our means”.
A Northamptonshire spokesperson said: “Councils work together, through the Local Government Association, to share experience and best practice, to ensure we are making the best use of public funding and not duplicating effort. Northamptonshire has followed a path laid by others and East Sussex has done this particularly well.”
Meanwhile, Heather Smith, the former leader of Northamptonshire who stepped down in March after a critical inspector’s report, hit out at the current administration, calling them “slaves” to the county’s seven Conservative MPs, who include the leader of the house, Andrea Leadsom.
Smith, who resigned the Tory party whip on Friday, told Local Government Chronicle she had been made a scapegoat: “All I can say is what’s happening in Northamptonshire will come home to roost when there’s a general election and number of those MPs, who’ve done nothing to support Northamptonshire, will lose their jobs.
Simon Edwards, the director of the County Councils Network, said the core offer was the “stark reality” of cuts. He said: “Councils have a duty to be honest with residents and plan ahead, with many having no choice but to consider reducing services to the bare minimum as part of prudent financial strategies to protect vulnerable residents while fulfilling their legal obligation to deliver a balanced budget. The only way to avoid this is by government delivering a sustainable and fairer funding settlement for councils as part of next year’s spending review.”
great time to crash the economy again then eh ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I would say to whirlwind and others that yes, it's not a good thing to be plundering the third world for doctors and nurses, as those countries will obviously need them.
In that case, why suggest such a scheme?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: But people are overlooking human nature here. People will always want to better themselves and enjoy a better life.
As an example, if an Indian doctor is getting 10 grand a year in India, but the USA or Germany, or the UK or whoever, is offering 80 grand a year. They will move.
Most people move in those circumstances. Happens all the time. It's not unique to the UK. That's reality, and we need doctors, so why not make it easier to facilitate something that happens anyway?
So they need extra training? So what.
In a 20 year career, an average doctor will save dozens, if not hundreds of lives. That obviously pays for itself. The training money is cash well spent. And on a final note, I didn't vote Brexit because I'm anti-Immigration. We need the best wherever they may be. Why should the EU citizens get preference over an Indian surgeon, or a Peruvian engineer, or whatever?
20 year carreer for a doctor? So what on extra training and the time that takes? Good to see you know nothing about the medical professions! As for your better life, not everybody wants to move away from their families. Your suggestion on this will be to allow their families to come over as well, but where do you draw the line? Are you going to bring in aunts and nephews thrice-removed just for a single doctor?
As for needing the best wherever they may be, why bother shipping in people from India when there is (Soon was, thankfully. Can't wait for the hard brexit you voted for! ) a continent filled with doctors and nurses that will require less training and already speak English as well? Thus meaning they could be moving in a lot quicker to help the NHS out?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm not anti-immigrant. It's silly to think that in a globalised world, you can keep people out. How can I be anti-immigrant when I'm calling for 50,000 non-white people to turn up?
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody in Britain who'd object to more doctors and nurse turning up, white or no white. If you're laying half dead on a hospital bed, you want cured, you've not giving two hoots for ethnicity. I want the best of the best for Britain, from all points of the compass, from every continent, be they white, blue, black, green, or florescent yellow!
Hard pressed to find anybody in the UK that does not want more doctors and nurses if they happen to be brown? You would be surprised. You seem to base this on the illusion that racists are capable of looking at your suggestion rationally. Spoiler: they are not capable of doing so. You yourself not being anti-immigrant is irrelevant due to the sheer number of people in the UK that are anti-immigrant. Unfortunately, a good portion of western Europe seems to suffer from that particular problem.
And I just caught you in a lie. If you wanted the best for britain, as you claim, you would at very least have read up on what you were voting on before you voted leave. The fact that you have since learned a lot, as you stated a bunch of pages back, shows that you are incapable of judging what is the best for britain. After all how can you deem something to be the best for britain, when you're as ignorant as you are when making choices on important issues? Just wondering.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: We need root and branch reform. Getting doctors from India would be a stop gap until we start churning out our own doctors. We should coordinate this policy with higher education, joined up thinking and all that.
Your fellow brexiteers will not view getting doctors from India in even remotely the same light as you do. Besides, as far as stop gap measures go it is poor. What do you do when you have changed your education system and gotten more doctors and nurses? Are they allowed to stay, or is it more likely that your fellow leavers would want them gone from the UK on account of them not being as white as they themselves are? And what kind of time frame are you thinking of? months? years? (spoiler: it is more likely to be decades, going by the amount of trouble changes in education systems tends to bring, which would all have to be sorted out as well.)
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: We've got some 'soft' cultural power with India, via the shared interest of cricket and the huge Indian diaspora in Britain. Plus, the Indian middle classes contain huge numbers of English speakers.
They are a demographic that is massively growing. Our tourist industry should target them, our immigration policy should be targeting their skilled professionals, and business should be rolling out the red carpet for them. Their purchasing power is huge. Some of them seem to like Britain.
Better to deal with a democracy like India than China. Plus, India obviously matches China's population.
I've said it before. India, that's the future. Send forth the cargo ships.
Send forth the cargo ships? Just how blind to history are you? edit: Seriously, "Send forth the cargo ships" is a really poor choice of words given the context of the UK being the former brutal colonial oppressor of India.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 13:41:16
Yes. My own doctor has been a doctor for 30 years. 30 is more than 20? Right?
As for your better life, not everybody wants to move away from their families
Nowhere did I say that everybody wants to move away from their families.
a continent filled with doctors and nurses that will require less training and already speak English as well? Thus meaning they could be moving in a lot quicker to help the NHS out?
Does every doctor in Europe speak English? Won't they be needed in their own nations?
Hard pressed to find anybody in the UK that does not want more doctors and nurses if they happen to be brown? You would be surprised
I am surprised. We've had thousands of non-white doctors and nurses in the UK for nigh on 7 decades. The UK's leading heart surgeon doesn't have white skin. But I suppose they'll all be getting burnt at the stake soon by Brexiteers.
shows that you are incapable of judging what is the best for Britain.
As a British taxpayer for nigh on 5 decades, I'll be the judge of what's best for Britain. People like me have been the backbone of this country.
Are they allowed to stay, or is it more likely that your fellow leavers would want them gone from the UK on account of them not being as white as they themselves are?
No offence, but have you ever been to Britain? There are millions of non-white British citizens, most of which were born in Britain.
And you accuse me of being ignorant.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
How are people like you the backbone of the country and what makes you think you know what's right; since you're willing to send us back to the stone age.
Are also blind to the anti-immigrant stance that makes up the bulk of the leave movement, or how racist a large minority of our population Are?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're pretty much the textbook definition of ignorant, by your own admission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 17:23:08
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
We've got some 'soft' cultural power with India, via the shared interest of cricket and the huge Indian diaspora in Britain. Plus, the Indian middle classes contain huge numbers of English speakers.
They are a demographic that is massively growing. Our tourist industry should target them, our immigration policy should be targeting their skilled professionals, and business should be rolling out the red carpet for them. Their purchasing power is huge. Some of them seem to like Britain.
Govt plan to force an 8 year old chess prodigy to leave the country next month because his father earns less than £120,000 a year.
Spoiler:
average UK salary is less than £30K per annum.
Most Drs do not earn £120K per annum either
.... or MPs but lets not give them ideas eh ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 18:45:22
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
I am surprised. We've had thousands of non-white doctors and nurses in the UK for nigh on 7 decades. The UK's leading heart surgeon doesn't have white skin. But I suppose they'll all be getting burnt at the stake soon by Brexiteers.
A few months ago I had a hilariously depressing encounter with a gentleman on my commute.
I was standing with him in the vestibule (it's impossible to get a seat on my trains to and from work) and as we waited for the train to leave the station we stuck up conversation.
After exchanging the usual banal pleasantries he informed me that he was on his way home from a court case where he was the defendant. He mentioned that it was especially burdensome for him to attend his court case because he had a badly injured arm, which he had loudly and continuously referred to since embarking.
I asked this man why he had been in court and he said that he had been charged with racially aggravated assault. He claimed that he was having surgery to repair his damaged arm and, in the middle of the surgery he noticed that one of the doctors working on him was Asian so he attacked him mid-surgery!
He then had the nerve to complain that the surgery was stopped and that his arm still hasn't been repaired.
My fellow passengers and I took the opportunity to let this bloke know just what a cretin he was before he decided it best to head down the carraige looking for a seat.
Some racists are Brexit supporters, therefore, all Brexit supporters are racist. Is that the logic at work here?
I must admit I do get tired of being tarred with the racist brush these past two years.
After all, the man who wants skilled non-white people from the rest of the world to come to Britain must be racist right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote: How are people like you the backbone of the country and what makes you think you know what's right; since you're willing to send us back to the stone age.
Are also blind to the anti-immigrant stance that makes up the bulk of the leave movement, or how racist a large minority of our population Are?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're pretty much the textbook definition of ignorant, by your own admission.
I'm entitled to cast my vote as I see fit. Same as everybody else. I'm entitled to my own opinion, same as everybody else.
I pay my taxes, obey the laws, attend jury service and vote every election, even the EU elections, which is a damn sight more than most people have ever done.
Thanks to the business I run, I probably pay more tax than most people on dakka. I think I've earned the right to a say in my country's future.
Better than anybody else? No. Equal to everybody else? Absolutely.
If Remain supporters are not happy with us leaving the EU, then I suggest you elect some MPs with a spine who take us back in.
Perhaps you could call them Lib Dems. And perhaps you could get them to turn up for key votes?
I am surprised. We've had thousands of non-white doctors and nurses in the UK for nigh on 7 decades. The UK's leading heart surgeon doesn't have white skin. But I suppose they'll all be getting burnt at the stake soon by Brexiteers.
A few months ago I had a hilariously depressing encounter with a gentleman on my commute.
I was standing with him in the vestibule (it's impossible to get a seat on my trains to and from work) and as we waited for the train to leave the station we stuck up conversation.
After exchanging the usual banal pleasantries he informed me that he was on his way home from a court case where he was the defendant. He mentioned that it was especially burdensome for him to attend his court case because he had a badly injured arm, which he had loudly and continuously referred to since embarking.
I asked this man why he had been in court and he said that he had been charged with racially aggravated assault. He claimed that he was having surgery to repair his damaged arm and, in the middle of the surgery he noticed that one of the doctors working on him was Asian so he attacked him mid-surgery!
He then had the nerve to complain that the surgery was stopped and that his arm still hasn't been repaired.
My fellow passengers and I took the opportunity to let this bloke know just what a cretin he was before he decided it best to head down the carraige looking for a seat.
So we take this one anecdotal example and extrapolate it into solid evidence that Britain is a hotbed of racism?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/04 20:06:12
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Some racists are Brexit supporters, therefore, all Brexit supporters are racist. Is that the logic at work here?
I must admit I do get tired of being tarred with the racist brush these past two years.
After all, the man who wants skilled non-white people from the rest of the world to come to Britain must be racist right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote: How are people like you the backbone of the country and what makes you think you know what's right; since you're willing to send us back to the stone age.
Are also blind to the anti-immigrant stance that makes up the bulk of the leave movement, or how racist a large minority of our population Are?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're pretty much the textbook definition of ignorant, by your own admission.
I'm entitled to cast my vote as I see fit. Same as everybody else. I'm entitled to my own opinion, same as everybody else.
I pay my taxes, obey the laws, attend jury service and vote every election, even the EU elections, which is a damn sight more than most people have ever done.
Thanks to the business I run, I probably pay more tax than most people on dakka. I think I've earned the right to a say in my country's future.
Better than anybody else? No. Equal to everybody else? Absolutely.
If Remain supporters are not happy with us leaving the EU, then I suggest you elect some MPs with a spine who take us back in.
Perhaps you could call them Lib Dems. And perhaps you could get them to turn up for key votes?
I am surprised. We've had thousands of non-white doctors and nurses in the UK for nigh on 7 decades. The UK's leading heart surgeon doesn't have white skin. But I suppose they'll all be getting burnt at the stake soon by Brexiteers.
A few months ago I had a hilariously depressing encounter with a gentleman on my commute.
I was standing with him in the vestibule (it's impossible to get a seat on my trains to and from work) and as we waited for the train to leave the station we stuck up conversation.
After exchanging the usual banal pleasantries he informed me that he was on his way home from a court case where he was the defendant. He mentioned that it was especially burdensome for him to attend his court case because he had a badly injured arm, which he had loudly and continuously referred to since embarking.
I asked this man why he had been in court and he said that he had been charged with racially aggravated assault. He claimed that he was having surgery to repair his damaged arm and, in the middle of the surgery he noticed that one of the doctors working on him was Asian so he attacked him mid-surgery!
He then had the nerve to complain that the surgery was stopped and that his arm still hasn't been repaired.
My fellow passengers and I took the opportunity to let this bloke know just what a cretin he was before he decided it best to head down the carraige looking for a seat.
So we take this one anecdotal example and extrapolate it into solid evidence that Britain is a hotbed of racism?
Did you see me do any extrapolating? I just thought I'd take your comment as a chance to share a ridiculous story about a gakhead I met on the train.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 20:15:06
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Some racists are Brexit supporters, therefore, all Brexit supporters are racist. Is that the logic at work here?
I must admit I do get tired of being tarred with the racist brush these past two years.
No one called you a racist, but you must acknowledge that Leave was all aboit immigration for most and heavily supported by racists?
I'm entitled to cast my vote as I see fit. Same as everybody else. I'm entitled to my own opinion, same as everybody else.
But you've admitted your voting choice has nothing to do with the facts, and despite learning a lot you'd vote the same way every time. How is that not ignorant?
I pay my taxes, obey the laws, attend jury service and vote every election, even the EU elections, which is a damn sight more than most people have ever done.
With the exception of the MEPelections that's the same as most people.
Thanks to the business I run, I probably pay more tax than most people on dakka. I think I've earned the right to a say in my country's future.
I dunno, I pay a lot of tax. But your tax bill doesn't correlate to a say; you get exactly the same way as everyone else. You do have the duty to so your research and vote based on the facts.
You also seem to be in a fairly unique position where your business (being mostly non-EU exports) avoids most of the brexit damage and actually benefits from the falling pound.
Most of my customers (manufacturing businesses) will be the opposite - brexit will hurt their supply chains and make things harder. Some are price insensitive so can pass it on happily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/04 20:36:26
I think everyone is assuming that No one is stupid enough to let a no deal happen by default. That this is all an elaborate bluff to get EU concessions before staying in at the last minute.
Alternatively; crashing out is deliberate, people like Mogg will make a fortune on acquisitions before we rejoin under weaker terms.
Alternatively; crashing out is deliberate, people like Mogg will make a fortune on acquisitions before we rejoin under weaker terms.
Indeed.
Plus there can only be no deal as to do otherwise would involve those behind Brexit actually coming up with a plan other than believing really really hard in whole nonsensical idea of us being better off in any way.
But if we crash out then they can continue to blame everyone else except themselves and the policies they've chosen -- whilst ensuring that they themselves are insulated from the worst of it by things like moving their businesses to the EU etc etc .
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
I love (read: am extremely annoyed by) Fox’s “waaa, the EU are standing by their principles, that’s not fair” attitude. What the hell did he think they were going to do?
Oh, yes, bend over backwards, because “we hold all the cards”(!)
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Kilkrazy wrote: Partly for the lack of a credible alternative.
The Labour Party is not covering itself with oppositional glory.
All the other third parties are too small and unproven for people to invest faith in them, except the regionals (SNP) who by definition won't operate in England where most of the electorate live.
It's like what I said a few weeks ago: a decade of coalition politics is upon us.
Coalition politics is fine, but sadly it won't actually happen. Labour would rather set themselves on fire or drown themselves in the Thames than admit for even one picosecond that they're not capable of winning alone and that this time things in Scotland will go back to how they were pre-Blair, and even were they to admit the changed electoral landscape to themselves, would still refuse to deal with the SNP making the numbers for a left coalition difficult to put together. The best we can hope for is an endless parade of weak minority governments from either side both pretending we still live in the pre-Cameron era when the government could rule with an iron fist if they wanted to, and getting feth all done except making life shittier for everyone.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Is the country just going to let itself slide off the edge of the cliff?
This article was interesting because of some of the wording Liam Fox used
He said: "We have set out the basis in which a deal can happen but if the EU decides that the theological obsession of the unelected is to take priority over the economic wellbeing of the people of Europe then it's a bureaucrats' Brexit - not a people's Brexit - then there is only going to be one outcome."
Mr Fox said if the EU did not like the proposal, they should "show us one that they can suggest that would be acceptable to us".
He added: "It's up to the EU27 to determine whether they want the EU Commission's ideological purity to be maintained at the expense of their real economies."
They've been on a grand tour of the EU to try and get support for their proposal. Reading between the lines they aren't getting anywhere. He is admitting that the EU are being asked to break the fundamental concepts that make up the EU (aka 'ideological purity') and that they are holding firm on these. The first statement itself is a lie. The EU parliament voted on the negotiating position.
Hence the way I read this is that they are steadily shifting the rhetoric to "Don't blame us"
It is, if there is no deal "It was the EU's fault they wouldn't change their stance" - Despite us knowing what the EU parliament agreed 2 years ago
If there is a deal but it is effectively in the EU but with no say then we "It was the EU's fault they wouldn't change their stance and we did not want to ruin the businesses that support the Tories" - To try and persuade their hard right nutcase supporters not to abnadon them
Or it is "No deal is so bad we can't possibly accept it, but as you, the populace, voted for it then it is your fault. We just acted on what you wanted".
I think they are barking up the wrong tree if the EU are going to change their position because of the economic impact as the UK is not the majority of their economy overall. I can also see that some would see it is a benefit. Companies like Airbus etc will just leave to the EU, that makes their countries stronger whilst at the same time make a direct competitor weaker.
There is even a suggestion that the government have been discussing cancelling police leave after Wrexit.
Coalition politics is fine, but sadly it won't actually happen. Labour would rather set themselves on fire or drown themselves in the Thames
Neither of the major parties will admit they would work in coalition (although in reality they will do). That is a problem with first past the post system. They know that enough people vote to stop the other party. If a major party states it will work in coalition it is a green flag for people to think well I might as well vote for this other party because they will work with the party anyway.
On the other flip side there will those that might not vote for the party because they don't want anything to do with the SNP [insert other party]. A lot of MPs will look at the LDs and worry that you can be punished for a coalition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/05 09:09:38
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
TBF that is an entirely alien concept for him/his ilk.
Might as well try and make a dog understand the concept of Scandinavia.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Neither of the major parties will admit they would work in coalition (although in reality they will do). That is a problem with first past the post system. They know that enough people vote to stop the other party. If a major party states it will work in coalition it is a green flag for people to think well I might as well vote for this other party because they will work with the party anyway.
On the other flip side there will those that might not vote for the party because they don't want anything to do with the SNP [insert other party]. A lot of MPs will look at the LDs and worry that you can be punished for a coalition.
Aye, all true, but it's not as if Labour are clamouring for a change to the voting system either. They could be leading a left coalition and implementing a lot of policy, but they would rather let the country go to gak in the medium term in the vague hope that eventually they'll get a thumping absolute majority again and won't have to make any compromises at all. And I'm well aware the Tories are the same, but the thing is I expect the Tories to be scumbags, while I still entertain some few remaining shreds of expectation that Labour are supposed to be better than that.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Aye, all true, but it's not as if Labour are clamouring for a change to the voting system either. They could be leading a left coalition and implementing a lot of policy, but they would rather let the country go to gak in the medium term in the vague hope that eventually they'll get a thumping absolute majority again and won't have to make any compromises at all. And I'm well aware the Tories are the same, but the thing is I expect the Tories to be scumbags, while I still entertain some few remaining shreds of expectation that Labour are supposed to be better than that.
I think we don't hear about there support it has in the Labour party rather than it isn't there.
Realistically the only party that really objects to PR at the moment is the Tories...now I wonder why that might be....?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/05 14:47:49
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Consider: the 
1750 pts Blood Specters
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
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