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Truth is, since the situation is quite exceptionnal, we won't know the real consequences on long term before they actually happen. And when they did, there are chances one side will throw all the blame on the other.

Some are optimistic, others are pessimistic.

TBH, so far, the only thing sure is the clock is ticking and the people we thought are competent enough to be in charge show they are not much better than us to deal with crisis situations in the end. Translation : they're the same humans than us. There is no "savior" or no "super individual" in this whole mess here. Wishing there will be one to magically appear is the true delusion, IMHO.

 Ketara wrote:

I've more or less accepted now that this is me:-

When we've left the EU and the immediate disruption has died down in a few years, I'll take another crack at discussing other stuff. Till then, I'll stop pissing in everyone's tea and leave them to enjoy themselves. After all, if there's one thing an Englishman hates; it's somebody trying to take away his favourite gripe.

I've added captions as I assume this was what you were trying to say....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In an ideal world, myself, Future War, Ketara, Shadow Captain and any other Leave supporters, would bring our miniatures, and settle this on the table top against a Kilkrazy/reds8n/Malus/Jouso/Herzlos + others, tournament team.

Of course to be really reflective of the Wrexit vote, the leave side would have to:-

Cheat by bringing more points to the table whilst trying to tell everyone they are within the rules
Lie about the game they were going to play
Make sure a player switches sides at the last minute by offering them overall command
Hurl abuse at any players that haven't painted their models in a pale flesh tone
Promise that they'll hand out 350 million models for free if they win, even though they've not got any to hand out

Anything else I missed? [To point out I'm not suggesting any mentioned players are like this, just what would have to happen to fairly reflect the Wrexit vote]

Whirlwind, my apologies for leaving you out of the Remain side team.

That was a genuine fail on my part.

That being said, I was pretty bad at Warhammer Fantasy. I loved that game, but I was bloody hopeless.

So even if we adopted your Leave rules, I'd still lose

Brexit is nothing like Warhammer Fantasy.

Warhammer Fantasy existed for a really long time and had a generally loyal player base who put up with decisions tinkering around the edge, but was still recognisably the same game.

Then it was destroyed by shortsighted fools looking to make a quick buck out of a new game version which kept some, but not all, of the parts of WFB and hoped that the players would just go along with it.

It took ages to get back into something approximating a reasonable system, after annoying a huge number of people, and a lot of the old timers still think bringing it back would be a really good idea.

....oh.

And all those people who complained for years and years that the plot of Warhammer never moved on, that there had to be change, that things needed to be modernised? Who cheered on The End Times and told everyone that the outcome was going to be just spiffing?

Yeah. Enjoy your Age of Sigmar.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/23/nazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe-release-shows-iran-is-ready-to-reach-out

Clearly this is just political shenanigans, but it is definitely good news, definitely isn't Brexit related, and has a lovely picture (not the one of John Bolton ).

I had a tyre blow out on me today. Luckily it wasn’t on the motorway, but changing it was a huge pain. Literally. I hurt myself trying to undo those rusty bolts. Might not be able to paint for a few days. But the reason why I’m telling you all this is because to make matters worse, a cyclist came to within an inch of mowing me down whilst I was working. Even though he had no reason to, because there was a 15 foot gap behind me to go through, no one else around to get in the way, and it was a huge 400 foot long stretch of straight road so it’s not like he couldn’t see me long before he reached me. Just barked ‘watch!’ and zoomed on by, in his terrible lycra and stupid helmet.

I guess what I’m getting at is, I hate cyclists, completely and utterly, and I look forward to the day when they’re forced to have licence plates and pay road tax like the rest of us. Almost every day on that stretch of road they’re causing problems. See, there’s a massive dedicated cycle lane for them there, two lanes wide too. And yet they completely and deliberately ignore it and instead cycle out on the road itself. And not on the edge of the curb with space to allow people to pass them, oh no I’m talking about cycling out in the fething middle of the road along the central lines, forcing a big line of traffic to form behind them whilst they smirk along. No, they actually do smirk when doing this, and it enrages me.

They talked about this on the radio recently, and there was an idea floated around to make it illegal to cycle on a road if a cycle lane is present. I could definitely get behind that. This particular road is a perfect test bed for it.

A) punctures suck, bad luck FWC. I actually think that car manufacturers ought to abandon putting spare tyres etc in cars, because most people don’t have them maintained correctly (right tyre pressures etc), can’t easily get them on and off and put themselves at considerable danger standing in the road trying to sort it out. And often failing and just calling for recovery anyway.

B) I’m on the fence on the cyclist thing; I don’t think road tax is justified, as that’s to pay for maintenance/wear caused and bikes don’t really have any impact on road conditions. However I agree about compulsory cycle lane use; my route to work includes a busy dual carriageway with a large, decent parallel cycle path, and yet you still regularly have to dodge round idiot mamils at 50mph, because they’re too hardcore to use the bloody path. It’s dangerous for everyone.

Because close passes by cars literally never happen to cyclists? Oh, no, that’s right, it happens all the time. I get about two a day, and have reported several to the police.

Cycle lanes are a mess, almost always unusable, encourage cars to make dangerous passes and are just a line of paint. Cyclists have every right to be “cycling out in the middle of the fething road”. It’s called taking the lane. It’s to stop idiots from squeezing past, and only overtaking when it is safe. The point in cycle lanes is not to get cyclists out of the road, but to give them safety if they think they need it. If you can't pass a cyclist in the middle of the road you can't pass them at the edge. There is not enough room and you should not be overtaking in to oncomming traffic.

The danger that cars cause, and the thousands of deaths and serious injuries caused by drivers every year needs addressing long before some complaints about cyclists not using a bit of glass and debris strewn paint. If you want to address cycling issues how about some proper quality segregated cycle lanes? Cycle lanes that cyclists want to use. I’ll accpet manadtory cycle lanes when cars are forced to use the motorway if at all possible.

On the road tax and licence, same old stupid thing, I pay exactly the same tax as an equivalent polluting car. And that’s the same argument trotted out time and again.

Edit to add, just cycled 14 miles in to Oxford to work. This moring is both school holidays and a friday, so quite. This morning I had 4 hail mary "Must pass cyclist" passes, two causing cars comming the other way to break and two close passes, well within 1.5 meters (the recomended passing distance) and one well within 50cm at 40mph. When I drive I get nothing like that.

I'd be curious about why the cycle lane isn't used; cyclists aren't on the road to be gaks.
Is it too badly worn? Covered in glass/poop? Too inconvenient to get on/off?

I'd be all for having some kind of visible ID and mandatory insurance but there's no need for them to pay road tax. We want more cyclists, not less.

Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

 Jadenim wrote:
A) punctures suck, bad luck FWC. I actually think that car manufacturers ought to abandon putting spare tyres etc in cars, because most people don’t have them maintained correctly (right tyre pressures etc), can’t easily get them on and off and put themselves at considerable danger standing in the road trying to sort it out. And often failing and just calling for recovery anyway.

Many are.

My last two cars didn't even have one of those small doughnut-type temporary spares. Just and anti-puncture kit which luckily never have been forced to use because I'm sure I'd end up calling road assistance anyway.

FWC story reminds me of the first time I had a puncture. I had just bought an old Renault 5 from my father's aunt for the equivalent of 360 euro because she wouldn't drive anymore so the car spent extended periods of time just sitting in the farm without moving.

So me, a healthy male in is early 20s who at the time played rugby couldn't for the life of me unscrew a single bolt by myself. A passing bus driver saw my plight and offered to help and proceeded savagely kick the lug until all bolts bar one were loose. When that one refused to move at all he went back to the cabin and brought a length of metal tube he had specificly for that (and maybe against unruly passengers, too) and started to repeatedly hit at the lug until it finally turned.

As a driver and a cyclist I see both sides of the issue from personal experience.

But if you really hate cyclists don't come to Oxford. I think there are something like 40,000 trips a day by bike around here.

As a cyclist I am growing to hate pedestrians. They wander all around the bike lanes looking at mobile phones while listening to music so they can't hear my ding-dong bell.

It doesn't help that the city council has allowed the signage and road markings on some major bike lanes to decay to complete uselessness.

The reason cars don't come with proper spares is to save weight for the MPG tests. I had one previous car that came with a crappy space saver wheel even though the well was big enough for a proper wheel - there was a plastic spacer in there to make up the space. I picked up a cheap wheel from a local garage. The foam is no use - if it does plug the gap, it ruins the tyre, and if you've got a bigger puncture or a puncture in the sidewall, it's useless.

As for not being able to shift the wheel, that's for a couple of reasons - mechanics over-tightening the nuts with power tools, and alloy wheels welding themselves to the hub. I've been reduced on occasion to kicking the wrench to loosen them, to the point I was worried the car would come off the jack.

But back on topic - one cyclist is an idiot, and that's somehow relevant to all cyclists? I got cut up on the motorway this morning by an artic driver pulling out in front of me with no warning, but that doesn't make me suggest all HGV drivers should be punished - just that one.

Legally, I don't think you can restrict bicycles from roads - all roads except motorways and other "special roads" are public highways - there's nothing stopping me cycling, walking or riding a horse down just about every road in the country without legislation to the contrary. But even if you did so, cycle path use should only be compulsory once all cycle paths are made fit for purpose - that means not making them give way to every side street or entrance from the main route, properly enforcing parking restrictions, making sure they're properly maintained (trimming trees and shrubbery, filling potholes, etc. (in fact, I'd suggest that potholes in cycle paths should be prioritised over potholes in roads), making sure they don't end abruptly for no reason, and making sure they go to places cyclists actually want to go. A lot of cycle routes are handy for recreational cyclists (except for the idiot pedestrians who don't look where they're going, stretch dog leads across the width of the path, etc) but no use for people trying to cycle into town for work, or that sort of thing. Or they end up with huge detours, underpasses or bridges to get round the roads. I'd say if a new development including roads and cycle paths is being designed, the cycle route should be the direct, flat route, with the roads made to detour around it - it's easier for cars to deal with ascents and descents than cyclists.

I read an article about Milton Keynes, which was designed from the outset with excellent cycle paths. In the end people were still more likely to drive because basically people are lazy. The conclusion was that for a city to be truly bike friendly, it has to be fairly car unfriendly.

This is the situation in Oxford. The city centre is restricted access and very restricted parking. There is an outer ring road several miles out, with a series of cheap park and ride car parks. There is an inner ring road with more expensive car parking for the main shopping centre.

It actually works fairly well, but partly because the city is the right size. You can cycle anywhere to anywhere in 30 minutes max. It wouldn't work in a big place like London.

I think electric aassisted bikes will make cycling more popular as they get better and cheaper, providing the roads are made safer for cyclists. This should involve restoring the cycles paths along a lot of A roads, which have been allowed to fall into disrepair.

The Oxford city council aims to go car free in the central area by 2030 or something.

jouso wrote:
So me, a healthy male in is early 20s who at the time played rugby couldn't for the life of me unscrew a single bolt by myself. A passing bus driver saw my plight and offered to help and proceeded savagely kick the lug until all bolts bar one were loose. When that one refused to move at all he went back to the cabin and brought a length of metal tube he had specificly for that (and maybe against unruly passengers, too) and started to repeatedly hit at the lug until it finally turned.

OT but makes me wonder why I haven't had such a trouble here. Could it be because here we are used to changing tyres minimum of 2 times a year(winter and summer tyres so even without punctures or replacing with new ones you change 2 times a year minimum) so they don't get stuck due to being non-opened for years?

Could be. Also, if you're swapping wheels for summer/winter tyres, do you do that yourself, or get a garage to do it? For most people here, the only time the wheels will be off is during the car's service (annually, potentially once every two years) or its MOT (annually, once the car's 3 years old). That will be done by a garage with a pneumatic tool, so they're often over-tightened. I've even heard of some bolts shearing rather than coming off properly.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Could be. Also, if you're swapping wheels for summer/winter tyres, do you do that yourself, or get a garage to do it? For most people here, the only time the wheels will be off is during the car's service (annually, potentially once every two years) or its MOT (annually, once the car's 3 years old). That will be done by a garage with a pneumatic tool, so they're often over-tightened. I've even heard of some bolts shearing rather than coming off properly.

Hmm that's very good point since me or my dad does it so certainly that issue shouldn't exist. If you have it done by professionals in store who use specific tools for that certainly could affect. Dad's professional in terms of fixing cars but he doesn't have pneumatic tool for that in home. We do it the old fashioned way

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I read an article about Milton Keynes, which was designed from the outset with excellent cycle paths. In the end people were still more likely to drive because basically people are lazy. The conclusion was that for a city to be truly bike friendly, it has to be fairly car unfriendly.

This is the situation in Oxford. The city centre is restricted access and very restricted parking. There is an outer ring road several miles out, with a series of cheap park and ride car parks. There is an inner ring road with more expensive car parking for the main shopping centre.

It actually works fairly well, but partly because the city is the right size. You can cycle anywhere to anywhere in 30 minutes max. It wouldn't work in a big place like London.

I think electric aassisted bikes will make cycling more popular as they get better and cheaper, providing the roads are made safer for cyclists. This should involve restoring the cycles paths along a lot of A roads, which have been allowed to fall into disrepair.

The Oxford city council aims to go car free in the central area by 2030 or something.

Unfortunatly the city and county coucil are completly incapable of designing cycle friendly infrastructure, with totaly stupid designs. E.G:

Frideswide square: Cycling provision is either using the roundabouts that encorage drivers to not go round them, and pass cyclists or cycling across a shaired space, which you can access from the south, but it dumps you inbetween two junctions where cars are not looking, if you want to go up Hythe Bridge Street. If you want to go up Park End Street, no luck. Coming from the North, you can't even access this space.

Woodstock road: The cycle lane going north is regularly interupted by huge beech trees and bus stops.

A40/Cutteslowe roundbout: It was all changed a few years ago at massive cost to "Improve cycling provision". Now to get from Cutteslowe to Summertown you have to go from the bus lane on to the pavement cycle lane, cross two padestiran crossings, walk 50 meters to Davenant road then cross Banbury road to get back to the bus lane, if you follow the councils "improved access", or just follow the bus lane, as was always the case, which brings you in to conflict with cars comming off the roundabout on to Banbury road.

The council don't seem to have a clue how to build good road infrastructure for anyone.

In the good old days British people did a lot more of their own car maintenance. I remember helping my father to adjust the tappets on his car engine in the late1960s. We also did wheel balancing, adjusting the little weight around the rim.

However you can't do nearly as much with modern cars, because you need the diagnostic computer and all that. So we've become de-skilled, and tend to leave everything to the mechanics.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Could be. Also, if you're swapping wheels for summer/winter tyres, do you do that yourself, or get a garage to do it? For most people here, the only time the wheels will be off is during the car's service (annually, potentially once every two years) or its MOT (annually, once the car's 3 years old). That will be done by a garage with a pneumatic tool, so they're often over-tightened. I've even heard of some bolts shearing rather than coming off properly.

Nothing comes off at the MOT, and wheels will only come off at a service if it needs anything doing with the brakes or wheels. That could be once every 4 years, or longer, when brake fluid is changed or the car needs new pads. Alloy wheels are also a lot more common in the UK than other countries, so we get more issues with galvanic corrosion.

With regard to cycling I would like to see a cycling licence enforced so that those using bikes on the roads do have to have at least some formal training in how to use the roadways. Sadly such a system would probably just wind up then doing the theory test card drivers do which, whilst not totally useless, is somewhat a case of remembering stock answers to very specifically worded multiple choice questions (some of which isn't that useful - eg remembering braking distances as a number doesn't really work for most people who don't work a lot with longer distance measuring - knowing a car stops in x number of meters is pointless if they can't easily visualise that distance - most people don't know the distances they go by feel and experience in the car itself)

 Jadenim wrote:
A) punctures suck, bad luck FWC. I actually think that car manufacturers ought to abandon putting spare tyres etc in cars, because most people don’t have them maintained correctly (right tyre pressures etc), can’t easily get them on and off and put themselves at considerable danger standing in the road trying to sort it out. And often failing and just calling for recovery anyway.

Most people don't know how to change a tyre and the little jacks in most car repair kits are near useless unless you are a perfectly flat surface. However having a spare means when the AA/Greenflag/whatever gets there to change the tyre there is one in the car to change it onto. Otherwise you've got an even longer wait or might even have to be towed or just leave the car and return agian later with a spare tyre. So it speeds up the recovery period a lot.

I'd also say that changing a tyre is technically not that hard but ends up being hard because most people only do it when they have a flat. So each stage is harder because you've never done it much before - few people can do something once every year or less and remember how to do it perfectly.

One easy way to mess up is the order of putting the bolts back on - its terribly easy to go in a circle instead of opposites. Which cna run the risk that the wheel feels like its locked on, but in fact is at a tiny angle which then wobbles and before you know it all the bolts unwind and the wheel falls straight off the car! It's a really tiny detail but one that can fail and cause instant disaster for the car users and those around,


I can see that those in a country where you have to change to winter tyres every single year can at least build up more general awareness; plus chances are there's more commercials, info and general reminder stuff put out about it each year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the good old days British people did a lot more of their own car maintenance. I remember helping my father to adjust the tappets on his car engine in the late1960s. We also did wheel balancing, adjusting the little weight around the rim.

However you can't do nearly as much with modern cars, because you need the diagnostic computer and all that. So we've become de-skilled, and tend to leave everything to the mechanics.

Even a lot of mechanics have trouble today if they are not the dealer for the vehicle brand. Cars being designed on computer means a lot of efficent space saving designs, but also means a lot of designs that are not accessible for repair. A lot of parts are very hard to repair to the point where many have to be replaced as a whole unit rather than just fixing the small bit that is broken - because it would take hours and nearly be impossible to get back into.
The computer part is also a nightmare and mostly done to try and keep you going back to the main dealer (who can often have vastly inflated prices). A lot of smaller mechanics know a few tricks but in general it makes their job a lot lot harder and many dislike the modern car design.

tneva82 wrote:

jouso wrote:
So me, a healthy male in is early 20s who at the time played rugby couldn't for the life of me unscrew a single bolt by myself. A passing bus driver saw my plight and offered to help and proceeded savagely kick the lug until all bolts bar one were loose. When that one refused to move at all he went back to the cabin and brought a length of metal tube he had specificly for that (and maybe against unruly passengers, too) and started to repeatedly hit at the lug until it finally turned.

OT but makes me wonder why I haven't had such a trouble here. Could it be because here we are used to changing tyres minimum of 2 times a year(winter and summer tyres so even without punctures or replacing with new ones you change 2 times a year minimum) so they don't get stuck due to being non-opened for years?

I'm sure that's exactly the reason. My grand aunt probably hadn't changed tyres in 6-7 years at he very least.

I assume it will be even worse in Britain with a much wetter climate.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

As for not being able to shift the wheel, that's for a couple of reasons - mechanics over-tightening the nuts with power tools, and alloy wheels welding themselves to the hub. I've been reduced on occasion to kicking the wrench to loosen them, to the point I was worried the car would come off the jack.

Technically you're meant to free the nuts up before jacking it up. It makes it a bit easier to do and means there's no risk of pushing it off the jack.

 Graphite wrote:
Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

So lets slap Vehicle Excise Duty on Bicycles to placate the anti-cycling mob.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

So lets slap Vehicle Excise Duty on Bicycles to placate the anti-cycling mob.

I'm sure the cyclist farts a bit, maybe we could slap him with a "emissions tax" of some sort for eating beans?

Basing duty on emissions discriminates against the poor. The rich can afford to buy brand new cars with eco hybrid electric engines etc. that have little to zero road tax whilst poor people who have to buy older cars second hand cars pay more in tax because they’re dirtier. I know we need to encourage cleaner cars but this method does irk me a little.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

So lets slap Vehicle Excise Duty on Bicycles to placate the anti-cycling mob.

I cycle, but I also own, and pay excise duty on, 2 cars and 2 motorbikes. In fact most people who cycle also own taxable road vehicles, unless you want to start taxing kids on their paper rounds.

 r_squared wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

So lets slap Vehicle Excise Duty on Bicycles to placate the anti-cycling mob.

I cycle, but I also own, and pay excise duty on, 2 cars and 2 motorbikes. In fact most people who cycle also own taxable road vehicles, unless you want to start taxing kids on their paper rounds.

Why, thats an excellent idea. Why should kids be exempt from paying tax on their vehicle emissions?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Basing duty on emissions discriminates against the poor. The rich can afford to buy brand new cars with eco hybrid electric engines etc. that have little to zero road tax whilst poor people who have to buy older cars second hand cars pay more in tax because they’re dirtier. I know we need to encourage cleaner cars but this method does irk me a little.

Almost all tax schemes discriminate against the poor.

I'd really like to have seen VED added to fuel as it covers all kinds of emissions: inefficient cars, badly maintained cars, speeding cars.
Being part of fuel also makes it impossible to avoid (beyond red diesel). I doubt it's worth doing now due to electric cars.

I just bought a new car (to me) with £30 a year tax, that's just not sustainable.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Repeat after me:

"There is no such thing as road tax. Vehicle Excise Duty is charged in proportion to the emission levels of the vehicle"

So lets slap Vehicle Excise Duty on Bicycles to placate the anti-cycling mob.

I cycle, but I also own, and pay excise duty on, 2 cars and 2 motorbikes. In fact most people who cycle also own taxable road vehicles, unless you want to start taxing kids on their paper rounds.

Why, thats an excellent idea. Why should kids be exempt from paying tax on their vehicle emissions?

Because the emissions of their "vehicles" (actually the rider) are so low compared to any car that they would be free anyway even if they were included in the VED. Also, if you're taxing people for their emissions when cycling on the road then you should also be taxing joggers for their emissions, everyone in the gym for their emissions etc.

And also taxing people in their cars who get worked up about cyclists as that will raise their heartrate and so they will breathe more heavily and so raise their emissions.