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Luckily for the French, but not for our fishermen, Brexit makes the problem go away because UK ships won't be able to fish in EU waters any more.

I’m reasonably sure Devon fishermen were one of the pro Brexi groups that suddenly changed their mind when they realised it impacted them.

But didn’t the chairman of the European Fisheries Alliance, Gerard van Balsfoot, not claim that fishermen will just carry on fishing anyway, even if it’s illegal?

EDIT:

Yes, he did, but he didn’t mean for it to sound like that.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
But didn’t the chairman of the European Fisheries Alliance, Gerard van Balsfoot, not claim that fishermen will just carry on fishing anyway, even if it’s illegal?

EDIT:

Yes, he did, but he didn’t mean for it to sound like that.

I don't think this affects the situation much.

If people from France or the UK go and fish illegally in each other's waters, something will be done when it becomes a significant problem. It isn't hard for either navy to put some fast patrol boats out to catch cowboy fishers.

But it won't help British fishermen to fish illegally in Normandy anyway, because they will have to bring their catch back to the UK to sell it, where they will run into the customs problem.

Brexit will put tariffs and customs delays on the species the UK exports to the EU, which are some of the more valuable varieties because our European cousins are keen seafood fans.

To some extent this might be alleviated by UK consumers buying more of the good stuff, but we're not a strong nation of fish eaters (ironically for an island nation) and we're not going to pay premium prices for it.

The fisherman also won't be getting any more EU funding for infrastructure like the Grimbsy Fish Market, nor will they be able to access EU regional development grants for industries other than fishing to replace the fishing money that is going to go away.

Thus Brexit on the whole will negatively impact UK fishermen's incomes in several ways. Which is the exact opposite of what Farage promised them.

Quelle suprise!

 Steve steveson wrote:
They don’t. That’s down to the French government. If they want to go beyond the EU rules that’s up to them. If they want to implement those rules for everyone on the basis of conservation or anything else they need to do it the right way. There is no irony at all, unless those fishermen involved are pro Brexit.

It’s a case of live by the sword, die by the sword. The French are one of the strongest pro EU countries, and one of the loudest voices in the EU fisheries, along with Spain, and access to fishing waters is part of that. Don’t like it? Lobby the EU to change the law. Don’t try to enforce your own version of the law.

Typical France in the EU - they only obey the laws that suit them.

If it had been the other way around - the British would be nationlist, racist etc....

You've got it reversed.

The French are obeying their own law that they made to govern their own fishermen. The French fishermen want the British to obey it too, which we are not obliged to.

However the French government wasn't obliged to make that law in the first place.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
They don’t. That’s down to the French government. If they want to go beyond the EU rules that’s up to them. If they want to implement those rules for everyone on the basis of conservation or anything else they need to do it the right way. There is no irony at all, unless those fishermen involved are pro Brexit.

It’s a case of live by the sword, die by the sword. The French are one of the strongest pro EU countries, and one of the loudest voices in the EU fisheries, along with Spain, and access to fishing waters is part of that. Don’t like it? Lobby the EU to change the law. Don’t try to enforce your own version of the law.

Typical France in the EU - they only obey the laws that suit them.

If it had been the other way around - the British would be nationlist, racist etc....

In many ways they are our opposites; loudly proclaiming their enthusiasm for the EU whilst ignoring any rules that don’t suit them. Compare Britain, loudly proclaiming our hate for the EU whilst following all the rules to the letter. Like mugs.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You've got it reversed.

The French are obeying their own law that they made to govern their own fishermen. The French fishermen want the British to obey it too, which we are not obliged to.

However the French government wasn't obliged to make that law in the first place.

The British Fishermen are obeying EU laws? The French are attacking them without any intereference from the French authorities as usual.

Its the same as when their farmers attack foreigners vehicles or carry out blockades.

EU law allows fishermen to go into the fishing areas of the territorial waters of other EU countries.

That''s what the British fishing boats are doing.

 Steve steveson wrote:
They don’t. That’s down to the French government. If they want to go beyond the EU rules that’s up to them. If they want to implement those rules for everyone on the basis of conservation or anything else they need to do it the right way. There is no irony at all, unless those fishermen involved are pro Brexit.

I think you are missing where the irony is. Plenty of people argue that the UK fisheries gets shafted by the EU quota system and that our own fishing companies are being forced out because of the "EU fishing our waters" etc. Yet here is an example where we definitely benefit from being in the EU. As you have rightly said we benefit because we are not under any such restrictions (although that France has to take its own actions to try and stop 'overfishing' is concerning about the sustainability of extracting scallops over a full year). So people are both complaining about how our fisheries are exploited whilst ignoring that we do this ourselves elsewhere. This might be a case of shooting ourselves in the foot (again) once we leave the EU.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
EU law allows fishermen to go into the fishing areas of the territorial waters of other EU countries.

That''s what the British fishing boats are doing.

Agreed, the French are not respecting the EU laws by attacking them - what exactly are their coastguard or whatever doing?

If it is was the other way around - the "Brutal violent British" would be demonised but everyone just shrugs when the French do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
They don’t. That’s down to the French government. If they want to go beyond the EU rules that’s up to them. If they want to implement those rules for everyone on the basis of conservation or anything else they need to do it the right way. There is no irony at all, unless those fishermen involved are pro Brexit.

I think you are missing where the irony is. Plenty of people argue that the UK fisheries gets shafted by the EU quota system and that our own fishing companies are being forced out because of the "EU fishing our waters" etc. Yet here is an example where we definitely benefit from being in the EU. As you have rightly said we benefit because we are not under any such restrictions (although that France has to take its own actions to try and stop 'overfishing' is concerning about the sustainability of extracting scallops over a full year). So people are both complaining about how our fisheries are exploited whilst ignoring that we do this ourselves elsewhere. This might be a case of shooting ourselves in the foot (again) once we leave the EU.

In turn you are missing a larger point - The EU is often cited as not protecting local fisheries but rather allowing foreign fleets to devestate fishing grounds where local fishermen have to sit idle.

This French violence is a sympton of the problems of the EU fisheries policy - again if it had been British boats ramming and attacking other nations - the demonisation of them would have ben huge, as its France -people leap to their defence.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Agreed, the French are not respecting the EU laws by attacking them - what exactly are their coastguard or whatever doing?

If it is was the other way around - the "Brutal violent British" would be demonised but everyone just shrugs when the French do it.

There's never any excuse for violence, but then I'm cynical that we are only seeing the issue from a biased perspective and as with anything there are two sides to any story. I am unsure how maritime rules work. However I am assuming you can just sit a vessel where you want (excluding major shipping lanes). If the French fishermen deliberately arrayed their vessels making it difficult to pass (effectively an unofficial blockade of the scallop fishing areas) and then the UK vessels tried to force their way through then it could be seen as the UK fleet instigating the aggression.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Agreed, the French are not respecting the EU laws by attacking them - what exactly are their coastguard or whatever doing?

If it is was the other way around - the "Brutal violent British" would be demonised but everyone just shrugs when the French do it.

There's never any excuse for violence, but then I'm cynical that we are only seeing the issue from a biased perspective and as with anything there are two sides to any story. I am unsure how maritime rules work. However I am assuming you can just sit a vessel where you want (excluding major shipping lanes). If the French fishermen deliberately arrayed their vessels making it difficult to pass (effectively an unofficial blockade of the scallop fishing areas) and then the UK vessels tried to force their way through then it could be seen as the UK fleet instigating the aggression.

Ah now this is what i meant - you are looking for ways to make it the fault of the British fishermen....The French must somehow be blameless and in fact the victims....

Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Also as i said - this is part of the problem with the EU fisheries policy and its impact on local fisheries foreign fleets are often allowed to do what locals are not.

 Mr Morden wrote:


In turn you are missing a larger point - The EU is often cited as not protecting local fisheries but rather allowing foreign fleets to devestate fishing grounds where local fishermen have to sit idle.

This French violence is a sympton of the problems of the EU fisheries policy - again if it had been British boats ramming and attacking other nations - the demonisation of them would have ben huge, as its France -people leap to their defence.

I think it may be more symptomatic that the French think there are longer sustainable issues that cannot be resolved at the EU level (lets say the UK have blocked these restrictions as an example). Foreign fisheries do devastate fishing stocks. Each country is given an allocation of fish/scallops based off an overall scientific assessment as to what is considered sustainable. Under the EU rules you can catch these scallops throughout the year up to your allocation. Now France will have out in the time restriction for reason (I would suspect it is to do with the breeding season). Under the French rules scallop fishing can start in October. Now breeding seasons will be relatively arbitrary but likely cautious. It would be easy to surmise that just poor to October a large glut of scallops would be sitting waiting on the sea bed in August / September. If other fleets then devastate this by saving up your catch until this period, then not only is it working against the principles of sustainability but it can also have long term effects on the population (each you catch lots of juveniles etc). From french fishermen perspective if the stockpiles have been trounced before they can even get there and that ruins the fishing for the rest of the season then I have some understanding of their concerns. I am also sympathetic when it comes to environmental issues. As both a species and a country we do our best to get round environmental concerns, but that can last only so long until things like the scallop industry collapse and then everyone wonders how it ever happened. After all how many people object to greenpeace trying to stop whaling ships etc. Yes scallops are not as glamorous but they are likely more fundamental to the food chain and ecosystems.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


In turn you are missing a larger point - The EU is often cited as not protecting local fisheries but rather allowing foreign fleets to devestate fishing grounds where local fishermen have to sit idle.

This French violence is a sympton of the problems of the EU fisheries policy - again if it had been British boats ramming and attacking other nations - the demonisation of them would have ben huge, as its France -people leap to their defence.

I think it may be more symptomatic that the French think there are longer sustainable issues that cannot be resolved at the EU level (lets say the UK have blocked these restrictions as an example). Foreign fisheries do devastate fishing stocks. Each country is given an allocation of fish/scallops based off an overall scientific assessment as to what is considered sustainable. Under the EU rules you can catch these scallops throughout the year up to your allocation. Now France will have out in the time restriction for reason (I would suspect it is to do with the breeding season). Under the French rules scallop fishing can start in October. Now breeding seasons will be relatively arbitrary but likely cautious. It would be easy to surmise that just poor to October a large glut of scallops would be sitting waiting on the sea bed in August / September. If other fleets then devastate this by saving up your catch until this period, then not only is it working against the principles of sustainability but it can also have long term effects on the population (each you catch lots of juveniles etc). From french fishermen perspective if the stockpiles have been trounced before they can even get there and that ruins the fishing for the rest of the season then I have some understanding of their concerns. I am also sympathetic when it comes to environmental issues. As both a species and a country we do our best to get round environmental concerns, but that can last only so long until things like the scallop industry collapse and then everyone wonders how it ever happened. After all how many people object to greenpeace trying to stop whaling ships etc. Yes scallops are not as glamorous but they are likely more fundamental to the food chain and ecosystems.

Again this is just trying desperatly to find a way to portray the French as eternal victims in the EU depsite being one of the two most powerful nations in the EU and much of it constructed to suit them.

Do you actually know if Briatin has blocked restricitons in this area?

Sustainability - the exact same thing is raised when we have Fench or Spanish fleets fishing in our waters but again if we attacked them _ well I can well imagine the reaction - the problem that the Eu allows and in fact encourages fleets to plunder other nations fishing grounds.

It does not matter who destroys the fish stocks if they are destroyed.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five.

Yet that is Sky, owned by a generally unsympathetic ear to other european countries. I'm sure that there are french media reports that are cursing us. The likelihood is that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. A british vessel is not likely to take videos of itself ramming a vessel, but would be more than happy to do it the other way round. Rather than backing the the french fishermen its more that I would prefer to see more evidence before jumping to conclusions. I appreciate that can be seen as supporting the other side, but its more devils advocate in that it may not all be what it seems. For example why didn't the Uk vessels simply turn around and find somewhere else to fish rather than provoke the confrontation (and subsequently put in a complaint through the correct channels)

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Possibly but the French navy are not the police, they are military organisation. They likely had no remit to intervene just in the same way the RAF didn't.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five.

Yet that is Sky, owned by a generally unsympathetic ear to other european countries. I'm sure that there are french media reports that are cursing us. The likelihood is that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. A british vessel is not likely to take videos of itself ramming a vessel, but would be more than happy to do it the other way round. Rather than backing the the french fishermen its more that I would prefer to see more evidence before jumping to conclusions. I appreciate that can be seen as supporting the other side, but its more devils advocate in that it may not all be what it seems. For example why didn't the Uk vessels simply turn around and find somewhere else to fish rather than provoke the confrontation (and subsequently put in a complaint through the correct channels)

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Possibly but the French navy are not the police, they are military organisation. They likely had no remit to intervene just in the same way the RAF didn't.

Is I news anti-EU?

40 ships vs 5 and the French are the ones being attacked?

From the various news feeds including Fench ones it appears that the small group of British ships retreated as soon as they were able to do so.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180829/scallop-wars-british-fishermen-ask-for-protection-from-french

As I understand it they were in International Waters being more than 12 miles from the shore but withn the area policed by the French.

This is the exact kind of dispute that the ECJ was created to resolve.

Shame we'll be leaving it soon.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Again this is just trying desperatly to find a way to portray the French as eternal victims in the EU depsite being one of the two most powerful nations in the EU and much of it constructed to suit them.

I could just as well argue that you are trying to portray anyone that doesn't support the UK view as not being nationalistic enough and should do so unquestioningly accept any sketchy evidence of an event with no questions asked. But neither argument gets us anywhere.

Do you actually know if Briatin has blocked restricitons in this area?

I believe Scotland does, but don't think there is anything specific in the rest of the UK.

Sustainability - the exact same thing is raised when we have Fench or Spanish fleets fishing in our waters but again if we attacked them _ well I can well imagine the reaction - the problem that the Eu allows and in fact encourages fleets to plunder other nations fishing grounds.

No it doesn't - I've already stated how it works. Every type of fish, every area is considered in terms of how much fishing can be landed and not make it unsustainable. That allocation is then split fairly as agreed by the EU. What I think you are confusing things with is that the majority of the UK fishing fleet is owned by foreign companies (greater than 80% IIRC). Hence these companies can use foreign vessels if they wish and land them in the UK. That is however an issue of out own government and how it hands out quotas with the majority going to a few large organisations. The UK itself however gets a very good deal out of the quotas overall. You can't blame the EU for how we then distribute it.

Sketchy reports? Currently there seems to be very consistant reporting across the networks - British, European, Global.

The French gathered a small fleet (35-40 ships) and in trying to prevent the lawful actions of the small number of (5) British vessels they threw missiles, ramnmed ships (foolishly apparently as the british ships are bigger) until they drove them away.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
This is the exact kind of dispute that the ECJ was created to resolve.

Shame we'll be leaving it soon.

I think we all know whose side they would take.

40 ships vs 5 and the French are the ones being attacked?

From the various news feeds including Fench ones it appears that the small group of British ships retreated as soon as they were able to do so.

Unlikely as collisions occurred. It's not like these vessels couldn't just turn around in time and move away. Their speed is relatively mild. I don't think there is any excuse for either side to be ramming each other as at sea its especially dangerous. However I still think we aren't seeing the whole story and that only a flashpoint is being represented. The article linked to itself refers to a ongoing long term dispute.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
This is the exact kind of dispute that the ECJ was created to resolve.

Shame we'll be leaving it soon.

I think we all know whose side they would take.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Agreed, the French are not respecting the EU laws by attacking them - what exactly are their coastguard or whatever doing?

If it is was the other way around - the "Brutal violent British" would be demonised but everyone just shrugs when the French do it.

There's never any excuse for violence, but then I'm cynical that we are only seeing the issue from a biased perspective and as with anything there are two sides to any story. I am unsure how maritime rules work. However I am assuming you can just sit a vessel where you want (excluding major shipping lanes). If the French fishermen deliberately arrayed their vessels making it difficult to pass (effectively an unofficial blockade of the scallop fishing areas) and then the UK vessels tried to force their way through then it could be seen as the UK fleet instigating the aggression.

Ah now this is what i meant - you are looking for ways to make it the fault of the British fishermen....The French must somehow be blameless and in fact the victims....

Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Also as i said - this is part of the problem with the EU fisheries policy and its impact on local fisheries foreign fleets are often allowed to do what locals are not.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, IT IS NOT EU POLICY, IT IS FRENCH GOVERNMENT POLICY!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
This is the exact kind of dispute that the ECJ was created to resolve.

Shame we'll be leaving it soon.

I think we all know whose side they would take.

Do you have any sort of source to back that assertion up or is this going to be like that thing about the EU forcing people to vote the way they want on the Lisbon treaty again?

 Whirlwind wrote:

I am unsure how maritime rules work.

That’s clear.

However I am assuming you can just sit a vessel where you want (excluding major shipping lanes).

You can’t. Maritime law has clear rules on rights of way and who gives way to who and how to stop boats coming in to conflict. And it has clear rules on not preventing lawful navigation.

If the French fishermen deliberately arrayed their vessels making it difficult to pass (effectively an unofficial blockade of the scallop fishing areas) and then the UK vessels tried to force their way through then it could be seen as the UK fleet instigating the aggression.

This is t what happened.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Agreed, the French are not respecting the EU laws by attacking them - what exactly are their coastguard or whatever doing?

If it is was the other way around - the "Brutal violent British" would be demonised but everyone just shrugs when the French do it.

There's never any excuse for violence, but then I'm cynical that we are only seeing the issue from a biased perspective and as with anything there are two sides to any story. I am unsure how maritime rules work. However I am assuming you can just sit a vessel where you want (excluding major shipping lanes). If the French fishermen deliberately arrayed their vessels making it difficult to pass (effectively an unofficial blockade of the scallop fishing areas) and then the UK vessels tried to force their way through then it could be seen as the UK fleet instigating the aggression.

Ah now this is what i meant - you are looking for ways to make it the fault of the British fishermen....The French must somehow be blameless and in fact the victims....

Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Also as i said - this is part of the problem with the EU fisheries policy and its impact on local fisheries foreign fleets are often allowed to do what locals are not.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, IT IS NOT EU POLICY, IT IS FRENCH GOVERNMENT POLICY!

For the Third Time and without needlessly shouting as you did - I know - my point was they were breaking International Law. I was saying there was other problems with the fisheries policy.

Calm down.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Whilst I was not there and media images are never the whole story - those I have seen thus far do seem to show the French attacking - we are also receiving reports of a large fleet of French vessels compared to a smaller number of british vessels. Sky is reporting "Around 40 French boats are claimed to have chased five British vessels." I news says 35 to five.

Yet that is Sky, owned by a generally unsympathetic ear to other european countries. I'm sure that there are french media reports that are cursing us. The likelihood is that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. A british vessel is not likely to take videos of itself ramming a vessel, but would be more than happy to do it the other way round. Rather than backing the the french fishermen its more that I would prefer to see more evidence before jumping to conclusions. I appreciate that can be seen as supporting the other side, but its more devils advocate in that it may not all be what it seems. For example why didn't the Uk vessels simply turn around and find somewhere else to fish rather than provoke the confrontation (and subsequently put in a complaint through the correct channels)

Its seems unlikely that the French authorities were not aware of what was happening -there are reports of the French navy being present and not inervening.

Possibly but the French navy are not the police, they are military organisation. They likely had no remit to intervene just in the same way the RAF didn't.

They do. Part of most Navy’s remit is law enforcement of a countries waters. The Royal Navy even has a specific squadron just for fishery’s work, Fishery Protection Squadron, which has 4, soon to be 5, ships.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sketchy reports? Currently there seems to be very consistant reporting across the networks - British, European, Global.

The French gathered a small fleet (35-40 ships) and in trying to prevent the lawful actions of the small number of (5) British vessels they threw missiles, ramnmed ships (foolishly apparently as the british ships are bigger) until they drove them away.

So this is a video of one of the incidents.




Two smaller french ships at the front, a larger Uk ship at the rear. None of them are in contact at the start. So which ship is responsible for the collision. Given that they were all travelling forward which is the ship that decided to turn left despite knowing vessels were there? Which ship made the turn to the left to cause the collision. Why did it not throttle back first to give itself the room to undertake such a manoeuvre?

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sketchy reports? Currently there seems to be very consistant reporting across the networks - British, European, Global.

The French gathered a small fleet (35-40 ships) and in trying to prevent the lawful actions of the small number of (5) British vessels they threw missiles, ramnmed ships (foolishly apparently as the british ships are bigger) until they drove them away.

So this is a video of one of the incidents.




Two smaller french ships at the front, a larger Uk ship at the rear. None of them are in contact at the start. So which ship is responsible for the collision. Given that they were all travelling forward which is the ship that decided to turn left despite knowing vessels were there? Which ship made the turn to the left to cause the collision. Why did it not throttle back first to give itself the room to undertake such a manoeuvre?

Now who is taking a snippet of the incident and determing what happened?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Two smaller french ships at the front, a larger Uk ship at the rear. None of them are in contact at the start. So which ship is responsible for the collision. Given that they were all travelling forward which is the ship that decided to turn left despite knowing vessels were there? Which ship made the turn to the left to cause the collision. Why did it not throttle back first to give itself the room to undertake such a manoeuvre?

Now who is taking a snippet of the inceicnet and determing what happened?

Precisely, thank you for just validating my arguments...

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Two smaller french ships at the front, a larger Uk ship at the rear. None of them are in contact at the start. So which ship is responsible for the collision. Given that they were all travelling forward which is the ship that decided to turn left despite knowing vessels were there? Which ship made the turn to the left to cause the collision. Why did it not throttle back first to give itself the room to undertake such a manoeuvre?

Now who is taking a snippet of the inceicnet and determing what happened?

Precisely, thank you for just validating my arguments...