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The objective to advance the interests of the members of the EU. That's why as soon as the UK decided to leave the EU, the EU no longer has to consider the interests of the UK as of paramount importance.

Certainly. And that's why we should be using every inch of leverage we have in exchange, from the security arrangements to settling rights for Poles.

I've never quite understood why so many people (I feel I should point out now that I'm targeting nobody specific here ) feel like we should cripple our own negotiating position by giving all advantages of British friendship away in the name of humanity, but expect the EU to give nothing back on the same lines.

If the EU wants to be dickish towards the UK... a former colony of yours across the ocean is waiting for you with open arms.

 Ketara wrote:
Certainly. And that's why we should be using every inch of leverage we have in exchange, from the security arrangements to settling rights for Poles.

I've never quite understood why so many people (I feel I should point out now that I'm targeting nobody specific here ) feel like we should cripple our own negotiating position by giving all advantages of British friendship away in the name of humanity, but expect the EU to give nothing back on the same lines.

Basic humanity of not using people's lives as bargaining chips? I find it frightening that friends of mine, who have lived in the U.K. for decades, have lives, families, careers and homes here are being told that they might be thrown out of the country because of swabbing between the EU and the UK. Because people want to use those lives as a bargain chip. I don't like that we are leaving the EU, but believe that as we are we should get the best deal we can. However we should not be holding families hostage as a tool to do that.

 Ketara wrote:


If that's honestly what you think happened? To the extent that you'll automatically take the side of someone who publicly said they'll happily lie on serious matters? You think that the conversations between the EU president and German Chancellor are so 'widely discussed' within the space of about 48 hours, random newspapers know what was said? And that a routine unadvertised pre-meeting between (theoretically) public officials was some dastardly plot by May to somehow manipulate the EU President into giving concessions to announce even though negotiations haven't started ?

I don't know what was said I wasn't there. However the idea that Juncker was all 'bad' in this and May was all 'good' and vice versa is all ridiculous. In all likelihood there was a terse correspondence and May likely didn't get the answers she was hoping for. That probably did give the impression that she was asking the impossible and for things that simply weren't in the interest of the EU to agree to. I'd much prefer both parties came out with the text of the conversations and tell everyone what was said so we can make up our own mind on the issues. That May refuses to do this is something that she is going to have to come to terms with because the EU, being more open and transparent, are less willing to make sure everything happens behind closed doors (and they can't anyway because Juncker is representing 27 countries, the one he doesn't have to care about is the UK). That May has not refuted what has been said (and is now coming out saying she is going to be "bloody difficult" would imply these things were said and she wants to look 'hard' because she didn't get what she wanted out of the discussions. She would have been far better coming out saying they were difficult discussions and that a lot of work is going to be needed by both sides and compromises made. As it stands the UK is likely to lose seriously if May takes umbridge at the leaked information because in reality it's going to happen all the time during the discussions.

I can't think of a single example of you ever saying anything good about the Tories, or bad about the EU. It's reached the point now where I know what you're going to say before you say it. If someone does either of those things, you bury them in five foot long quote chains and insist that they must be ill-educated, under the influence of evil newspapers, lack critical thinking, and so on.

That's not particularly correct, rather the current discussions relate to their current antics and they are generally mostly negative or self serving. However some actions are positive (whether by choice or luck). For example there was an article I read today (which for the life of me I can't find) where grants were given out to the poorest students introduced by the Tories in 2010 and that has helped them lift their attainment level. This is a good thing. On the other hand we now have the re-introduction of grammar schools which favours the wealthy as indicated by all the evidence and reports. If the Tories expanded the grant scheme evidenced to work then I would be supportive; but I am not of a scheme that only favours the wealthy few. However things like Mays inability to answer a straight question except with soundbites:-

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-meets-voter-cornwall_uk_5908deece4b0bb2d087292a3?utm_hp_ref=uk; or that we have no clue how the nuclear industry will work now we are leaving Euratom
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39774062; or where we are ignoring the environment of overseas territories
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39771047

do not provide me with any optimism that who we have in charge are not just a bunch of authoritarian nutcases that are likely more interested in their own interests (for example calling an election when we should really be negotiating) than the countries interests.

Conversely I'm happy to criticise the Common Agricultural Policy of the EU as is both internationally deemed illegal and it ensures that third world countries can not produce food for the open market competitively - but it doesn't mean I think we should leave over it, rather I'd prefer that we influenced it from within rather than now having to worry how we are going to have subsidise our own farmers just so they can compete (and never mind they are in the midst of a recruitment crisis). However generally because they are consortium of 27 countries they generally make sound decisions even if takes time to get there because the extremes of any particular country are mitigated.

Deleted for non-derailing purposes.

 whembly wrote:
If the EU wants to be dickish towards the UK... a former colony of yours across the ocean is waiting for you with open arms.

TBH with the way things are headed in Europe I'm getting to the point where I'd genuinely prefer to be the 51st American state than an EU member state.


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 Darkjim wrote:

Also, perhaps a calmer tone, and not chucking round accusations of 5 foot reply chains when the only 2 such above on this page are ... err ... yours. Honestly, you'll get this one locked too.

Edit - by 'too', I mean locked as well as the other one, not that you got that one locked. Poorly phrased..

Perhaps you could direct some of that tone policing to your own side from time to time, such as R. "feth brexiters" squared?

May saying she us going to be a bloody difficult woman, is that just for Junker, or for us as well?

It just sounds like another easily digestible soundbite for the hard of political thinking to latch onto.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Perhaps you could direct some of that tone policing to your own side from time to time, such as R. "feth brexiters" squared?

Well, a mod slapped my wrists all ready, but perhaps you'd like some sort of flogging?

Its also a bit rich coming from one half of the pair who got our last, perfectly civil, but occasionally lively, political thread closed because of ignorant, bordeline racist, comments.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Certainly. And that's why we should be using every inch of leverage we have in exchange, from the security arrangements to settling rights for Poles.

I've never quite understood why so many people (I feel I should point out now that I'm targeting nobody specific here ) feel like we should cripple our own negotiating position by giving all advantages of British friendship away in the name of humanity, but expect the EU to give nothing back on the same lines.

Basic humanity of not using people's lives as bargaining chips? I find it frightening that friends of mine, who have lived in the U.K. for decades, have lives, families, careers and homes here are being told that they might be thrown out of the country because of swabbing between the EU and the UK. Because people want to use those lives as a bargain chip. I don't like that we are leaving the EU, but believe that as we are we should get the best deal we can. However we should not be holding families hostage as a tool to do that.

No, we shouldn't. It is immoral.

But that's exactly what the EU is doing with British citizens in Europe. Our governments ultimate responsibility is to British citizens, not EU citizens, and vice versa. If your friends wanted to lay down permanent roots in Britain, they should have applied for British citizenship. As should British citizens in Europe.

This is the point at which a little quid pro quo is appropriate. Both Britain and the EU have citizens in a similar predicament. That predicament could be solved by coming to a mutual agreement to let British and EU citizens remain in their respective host countries. Britain has offered to come to an arrangement, whereas the EU has flatly refused to discuss it until we cave in to their blackmail demands for massive bills.

Britain cares enough about the issue and the British/EU citizens involved to offer to come to a separate and mutual arrangement, whereas the EU government does not care. It cares more about settling bills, than protecting EU citizens in Britain.

Direct your ire to the EU, not Britain.

Exalted Shadow Captain. We offered to settle that issue right from the start, but they wouldn't even discuss it. The money came first. One side is being unreasonable and it's not the UK.

 r_squared wrote:
May saying she us going to be a bloody difficult woman, is that just for Junker, or for us as well?

It just sounds like another easily digestible soundbite for the hard of political thinking to latch onto.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Perhaps you could direct some of that tone policing to your own side from time to time, such as R. "feth brexiters" squared?

Well, a mod slapped my wrists all ready, but perhaps you'd like some sort of flogging?

No. This isn't even about you really, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining about the tone of your opponents whilst ignoring your own side. And by "your" I mean Darkjim.

Its also a bit rich coming from one half of the pair who got our last, perfectly civil, but occasionally lively, political thread closed because of ignorant, bordeline racist, comments.

No, its not. I wasn't breaking rule no. 1 insulting half of the people in the thread. You were.

And I reject the characterization of my comments (speaking only for myself) as racist and would have elaborated to explain why, had I been challenged to and had the thread not been immediately locked without allowing anyone a chance to respond. For one thing, by "several million", I was referring to Islamic extremists worldwide, not just Britain. I do not think all 2.7million British Muslims are extremist. Its not however controversial or statistically unlikely to suggest that there are several million extremist Muslims across the world.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Certainly. And that's why we should be using every inch of leverage we have in exchange, from the security arrangements to settling rights for Poles.

I've never quite understood why so many people (I feel I should point out now that I'm targeting nobody specific here ) feel like we should cripple our own negotiating position by giving all advantages of British friendship away in the name of humanity, but expect the EU to give nothing back on the same lines.

Basic humanity of not using people's lives as bargaining chips? I find it frightening that friends of mine, who have lived in the U.K. for decades, have lives, families, careers and homes here are being told that they might be thrown out of the country because of swabbing between the EU and the UK. Because people want to use those lives as a bargain chip. I don't like that we are leaving the EU, but believe that as we are we should get the best deal we can. However we should not be holding families hostage as a tool to do that.

No, we shouldn't. It is immoral.

But that's exactly what the EU is doing with British citizens in Europe. Our governments ultimate responsibility is to British citizens, not EU citizens, and vice versa. If your friends wanted to lay down permanent roots in Britain, they should have applied for British citizenship. As should British citizens in Europe.

This is the point at which a little quid pro quo is appropriate. Both Britain and the EU have citizens in a similar predicament. That predicament could be solved by coming to a mutual agreement to let British and EU citizens remain in their respective host countries. Britain has offered to come to an arrangement, whereas the EU has flatly refused to discuss it until we cave in to their blackmail demands for massive bills.

Britain cares enough about the issue and the British/EU citizens involved to offer to come to a separate and mutual arrangement, whereas the EU government does not care. It cares more about settling bills, than protecting EU citizens in Britain.

Direct your ire to the EU, not Britain.

UK has to do everything we can to defend our citizens rights and furful thr basic duty of govement to best protect and advance the interests of nation and people.. If they are going to engage I blackmail, then they are not looking out for there own citizens in this case.

Hopefully we can restore sense. Do a quid pro pro deal and negotiate this sensibility like adults deciding the fates of millions.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
....Britain cares enough about the issue and the British/EU citizens involved to offer to come to a separate and mutual arrangement, whereas the EU government does not care. It cares more about settling bills, than protecting EU citizens in Britain....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/31/full-eus-draft-guidelines-brexit-negotiations/

One of the most prominent parts of the agreement for negotiations agreed by the EU27,

The right for every EU citizen, and of his or her family members, to live, to work or to study in any EU Member State is a fundamental aspect of the European Union. Along with other rights provided under EU law, it has shaped the lives and choices of millions of people. Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to settle the status and situations at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union will be a matter of priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be enforceable and non-discriminatory.

Number 8 on the list of any agreed financial settlement, cited at number 10.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Exalted Shadow Captain. We offered to settle that issue right from the start, but they wouldn't even discuss it. The money came first. One side is being unreasonable and it's not the UK.

See above.

 r_squared wrote:
Number 8 on the list of any agreed financial settlement, cited at number 10.

No...they want to tie the agreement to a financial settlement, Britain wants to negotiate an agreement separately. Basically they're saying "agree to pay us this massive bill and then we'll agree to not feth over our respective ex-pats".

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And I reject the characterization of my comments (speaking only for myself) as racist and would have elaborated to explain why, had I been challenged to and had the thread not been immediately locked without allowing anyone a chance to respond. For one thing, by "several million", I was referring to Islamic extremists worldwide, not just Britain. I do not think all 2.7million British Muslims are extremist. Its not however controversial or statistically unlikely to suggest that there are several million extremist Muslims across the world.

What he said, more or less, since I'm the other half involved.

I level the same criticism at the EU, however they are not what was being discussed at the time. Both sides should have agreed this, and neither side should be using it as a bargaining chip. They are both equally at fault.

 jhe90 wrote:
UK has to do everything we can to defend our citizens rights and furful thr basic duty of govement to best protect and advance the interests of nation and people.. If they are going to engage I blackmail, then they are not looking out for there own citizens in this case.

Hopefully we can restore sense. Do a quid pro pro deal and negotiate this sensibility like adults deciding the fates of millions.

The problem is that the EU simply does not care. Their biggest priority is not protecting a few hundred thousand or million EU citizens living in Britain.

Their biggest priority is maintaining the integrity of the European project. They don't want to see the empire they've built begin to crumble. And so they need to deter other member states from wanting to leave, by making sure Brexit, the first test case for a Member state exiting the EU, is an abject failure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:
I level the same criticism at the EU, however they are not what was being discussed at the time. Both sides should have agreed this, and neither side should be using it as a bargaining chip. They are both equally at fault.

Then we're in agreement.

And to that end, I don't think any agreement should be contingent on a financial settlement, the right of British/EU citizens to stay should be negotiated seperately. (As should a lot of things, on a case by case basis). Theres a good chance that there won't even be a financial settlement, or that we'll be arguing over it for many years to come, and by tying ex-pat rights to said settlement, the EU is knowingly leaving its citizens in limbo.

That issue should have been agreed to immediately and unconditionally. It's shameful that it hasn't been nor is it likely to be.

Actions speak louder than words.


If anything from that German Newspaper is true then why is the fact that we apparently want ex-pats sorted by the end of June absurd? Ifs it's a matter of priority then it can easily be sorted in a few days. One side agrees to honour all rights of citizens currently living in X, other side then agrees to it and jobs a good one.

If the EU really cares about its citizens living aboard, it will guarantee their rights at the first possible chance, after all isn't one of the core tenants of the EU the protection of people's rights?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That issue should have been agreed to immediately and unconditionally. It's shameful that it hasn't been nor is it likely to be.

Not our fault. Far asi read we offered to give them rights for rights as a basis to negotiate on..
A fair offer I think.

It is a bad fact though they rely on fear to hold EU loyaltly and unity by going hard on Brexit.
It would show there weaker than they seem and using such tactics to survive.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That issue should have been agreed to immediately and unconditionally. It's shameful that it hasn't been nor is it likely to be.

Not our fault. Far asi read we offered to give them rights for rights as a basis to negotiate on..
A fair offer I think.

It is a bad fact though they rely on fear to hold EU loyaltly and unity by going hard on Brexit.
It would show there weaker than they seem and using such tactics to survive.

Exactly, well said.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
....No, its not. I wasn't breaking rule no. 1 insulting half of the people in the thread. You were.

And I reject the characterization of my comments (speaking only for myself) as racist and would have elaborated to explain why, had I been challenged to and had the thread not been immediately locked without allowing anyone a chance to respond. For one thing, by "several million", I was referring to Islamic extremists worldwide, not just Britain. I do not think all 2.7million British Muslims are extremist. Its not however controversial or statistically unlikely to suggest that there are several million extremist Muslims across the world.

I can also "reject" characterizations. For a start I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread in particular, just a general malaise towards the Brexiteers in Govt, the ones that my rant was directed at. The last paragraph in my original quote actually refers to them as, The Brexiteers.
If you got your feelings hurt because you thought I was talking about you, I apologise, I wasn't directing it specifically at you, or any other Leaver.

As to your previous comments, anybody who wants to can have a look and judge for themselves what you meant when you said...

No points for guessing the demographic of the suspect.

And FWC said,

Worryingly there's thousands of the bastards up and down the country. Any day of the week any one of them could just decide that's it's jihad time and go on a car and knifing spree. Not to mention the likes of the Rottherham sex rings and other similar set ups.

Still, it's a small price to pay to be 'diverse' now, isn't it?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7170/696154.page

I think bringing up the last few posts of a recently banned thread isn't a very good idea.


Silly things were said, but let's keep them out of here.

True.

And to explain my last post there.
The frustration at that however many we arrest, that get caught. There's always more. There campaign of violence carries on with new flag bearers.

 jhe90 wrote:


It is a bad fact though they rely on fear to hold EU loyaltly and unity by going hard on Brexit.
It would show there weaker than they seem and using such tactics to survive.

You are right. That certainly is a bad "fact".

Election wise, council elections Thursday in many areas.

It's anyone expecting a record massive voter turnout?

Anyone really know much about their prospective councillors?

Nope? Me neither.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Actions speak louder than words.


If anything from that German Newspaper is true then why is the fact that we apparently want ex-pats sorted by the end of June absurd? Ifs it's a matter of priority then it can easily be sorted in a few days. One side agrees to honour all rights of citizens currently living in X, other side then agrees to it and jobs a good one.

If the EU really cares about its citizens living aboard, it will guarantee their rights at the first possible chance, after all isn't one of the core tenants of the EU the protection of people's rights?

There was nothing stopping us granting the rights straight away to the EU citizens in this country that we need, after all, were the ones walking away. As it turns out, the overwhelming majority of EU citizens in the UK are productive, tax paying contributors usally in professions that we have significant shortages of. UK nationals in the EU are overwhelming retirees, they are also much much fewer in number.
It is in our interests to ensure that these EU nationals wish to stay here, we need them.

We could have had a huge moral advantage, which, politically is nothing to be sneezed at, secured vital jobs and probably garnered some support from those other countries in the EU who aren't interested in brinkmanship, but instead we've squandered it by playing to the lower level that Junker is advocating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Election wise, council elections Thursday in many areas.

It's anyone expecting a record massive voter turnout?

Anyone really know much about their prospective councillors?

Nope? Me neither.

Fragmentary bits and pieces, I've had to work to find out who's actually standing, and I'm not convinced that the info I have is correct. Only had one leaflet through the door, and my wife recycled it before I'd read it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Certainly. And that's why we should be using every inch of leverage we have in exchange, from the security arrangements to settling rights for Poles.

I've never quite understood why so many people (I feel I should point out now that I'm targeting nobody specific here ) feel like we should cripple our own negotiating position by giving all advantages of British friendship away in the name of humanity, but expect the EU to give nothing back on the same lines.

Basic humanity of not using people's lives as bargaining chips? I find it frightening that friends of mine, who have lived in the U.K. for decades, have lives, families, careers and homes here are being told that they might be thrown out of the country because of swabbing between the EU and the UK. Because people want to use those lives as a bargain chip. I don't like that we are leaving the EU, but believe that as we are we should get the best deal we can. However we should not be holding families hostage as a tool to do that.

No, we shouldn't. It is immoral.

But that's exactly what the EU is doing with British citizens in Europe. Our governments ultimate responsibility is to British citizens, not EU citizens, and vice versa. If your friends wanted to lay down permanent roots in Britain, they should have applied for British citizenship. As should British citizens in Europe.

This is the point at which a little quid pro quo is appropriate. Both Britain and the EU have citizens in a similar predicament. That predicament could be solved by coming to a mutual agreement to let British and EU citizens remain in their respective host countries. Britain has offered to come to an arrangement, whereas the EU has flatly refused to discuss it until we cave in to their blackmail demands for massive bills.

Britain cares enough about the issue and the British/EU citizens involved to offer to come to a separate and mutual arrangement, whereas the EU government does not care. It cares more about settling bills, than protecting EU citizens in Britain.

Direct your ire to the EU, not Britain.

i agree but it isn't the true issue. The EU is demanding full EU rights for EU citizens in the UK and dependent territories right down to being under full EU law. Its not just that said rights are not going to be reciprocated, and frankly shouldnt, UK citizens in the EU should be under EU law and vice versa. The real issue is this is being used as a way to guarantee EU law in the UK.
So for example if the UK gets a hard Brexit, which is likely allowing for the demands being levied then we cannot undercut the EU if we have to apply EU restrictions in full to EU citizens inside our borders.

People are looking at these are rights issues, they are in fact economic issues. The Eu wants us to either capitulate and accept their laws to keep the EU competitive, or be forced to accept them anyway by the back door by not understanding the true consequences of our exit treaty and thus prevent us from being more competitive..

 r_squared wrote:


I can also "reject" characterizations. For a start I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread in particular, just a general malaise towards the Brexiteers in Govt, the ones that my rant was directed at. The last paragraph in my original quote actually refers to them as, The Brexiteers.
If you got your feelings hurt because you thought I was talking about you, I apologise, I wasn't directing it specifically at you, or any other Leaver.

Yes, feth the Tories. I won't disagree with that sentiment, I loathe them too. But you didn't specify the government, you were tarring with quite a wide brush and as half the posters in this/these threads are pro-Brexit that was straying into personal insult territory. And don't worry, my feelings weren't hurt and I don't desire your apology. I would have quite happily given as good as I got in this regard, but my response probably would have resulted in a ban so the yellow triangle it was.

As to your previous comments, anybody who wants to can have a look and judge for themselves what you meant when you said...

Please don't try to gas-light me. I know what I meant. I am TELLING you what I meant. If I'd been asked at the time, I would have clarified on the spot what I meant. Instead the thread was Insta-locked without any recourse or chance to respond.

Do not presume to lecture me on what I think and mean.



Spoilered the rest of my post to avoid turning this into a wall of text.

Insert *obligatory explanation of how cultural racism is a term and that you really, really should know that by now, considering this isn't the first time this is brought up* here