UK & EU Politics Thread

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**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think anyone doubts that the UK will eventually overcome Brexit, Brexit isn't going to cause their fair isles to sink into the seas, but rather, view it as inflicting a lot of otherwise unnecessary overcoming just for its own sake

Meh. Its worth it to me in the long term, if we by leaving we avoid being absorbed into the United States of Europe (the end goal of "ever closer union", the raison d'etre of the EU) and manage to remain a distinct and independent nation state.

Others will obviously disagree.

**reds8n**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Brexit is not the problem. Brexit has never been the problem.

Nothing like a stubborn denial of reality to see through a day.

**A Town Called Malus**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think anyone doubts that the UK will eventually overcome Brexit, Brexit isn't going to cause their fair isles to sink into the seas, but rather, view it as inflicting a lot of otherwise unnecessary overcoming just for its own sake

Meh. Its worth it to me in the long term, if we by leaving we avoid being absorbed into the United States of Europe (the end goal of "ever closer union", the raison d'etre of the EU) and manage to remain a distinct and independent nation state.

Others will obviously disagree.

How long will that last though? What happens when the United States of Europe is the new global economic superpower? Do we still cling to our "sovereignty" in the face of economic, scientific and social isolation? What happens if we decide that it is better to be part of it than to be a competitor? Instead of being in a position to proactively guide the evolution of the EU from within we are in a position of weakness where we can only react to the evolution.

**Ketara**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think anyone doubts that the UK will eventually overcome Brexit, Brexit isn't going to cause their fair isles to sink into the seas, but rather, view it as inflicting a lot of otherwise unnecessary overcoming just for its own sake

Meh. Its worth it to me in the long term, if we by leaving we avoid being absorbed into the United States of Europe (the end goal of "ever closer union", the raison d'etre of the EU) and manage to remain a distinct and independent nation state.

Others will obviously disagree.

How long will that last though? What happens when the United States of Europe is the new global economic superpower? Do we still cling to our "sovereignty" in the face of economic, scientific and social isolation? What happens if we decide that it is better to be part of it than to be a competitor? Instead of being in a position to proactively guide the evolution of the EU from within we are in a position of weakness where we can only react to the evolution.

We managed not to join the Soviet Union or the USA. There are options in the middle. Not to mention that 'big' does not necessarily equate to 'good'. The world is not a zero sum game where there have to be 'winners' and 'losers'. Only morons like Trump think in absolute terms like that.

**Vaktathi**

To be fair, the US and USSR are very dfferent from the EU with respect to the UK, and never had anywhere near the geographic proximity, economic integration, etc that the UK and EU have, as were the fundamental nature of those relationships.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think anyone doubts that the UK will eventually overcome Brexit, Brexit isn't going to cause their fair isles to sink into the seas, but rather, view it as inflicting a lot of otherwise unnecessary overcoming just for its own sake

No disrespect intended, but you guys have Trump, and that's a major hurdle to overcome. God only knows what the USA will be like in 4 years time

Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Brexit is not the problem. Brexit has never been the problem.

Nothing like a stubborn denial of reality to see through a day.

I've got a plan for 21st century Britain. Give me 10 years, a 200 seat majority in the commons, and a £500 billion budget, and I'll make Brexit a success

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, the US and USSR are very dfferent from the EU with respect to the UK, and never had anywhere near the geographic proximity, economic integration, etc that the UK and EU have, as were the fundamental nature of those relationships.

Mikhail Gorbachev thinks that the EU did what the USSR could never do i.e European domination, and all without a shot being fired.

**jhe90**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Not Empire.

But a country free to trade globally, decide own fate and prosper.
That means a relationship with EU too, but with freedom to trade with the commonwealth, to strike new deals, to adapt to changing markets and looks out beyond Europe as well as to it.

Hard to describe.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've got a plan for 21st century Britain. Give me 10 years, a 200 seat majority in the commons, and a £500 billion budget, and I'll make Brexit a success

I have a suggestion...

Spoiler:

**AlmightyWalrus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

That was my point: if you're not going to go British Empire again, how do you Make Britain Great Again (and we're talking doable things here, not pipedreams)? You're going to be competing with a bunch of actors that are far more powerful than Britain, why would Britain come out on top?

**Da krimson barun**

Is it me or is the fact that May is planning on trampling on the Good Friday Agreement is getting a lot less attention? Major, Kenny, Adams...everyone but Tories like Gove is pointing out the path this leads us down. Still no Irish language act, this...then there's whatever in the name of God and 2\3rds of Ulster the DUP are demanding behind the scenes. At what point are the 40% of PIRA weapons that were never accounted for going to come into play?
Arms importation can be done:the New IRA managed to get 6kg of TNT in. They got caught but that's only because the NIRA is so compromised: It's entirely possible the PIRA structures that officially don't exist aren't.
Perhaps I'm being alarmist but if the institutions are fallen and the GFA is broken...They haven't gone away you know.

**Vaktathi**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think anyone doubts that the UK will eventually overcome Brexit, Brexit isn't going to cause their fair isles to sink into the seas, but rather, view it as inflicting a lot of otherwise unnecessary overcoming just for its own sake

No disrespect intended, but you guys have Trump, and that's a major hurdle to overcome. God only knows what the USA will be like in 4 years time

I never said we're immune from world class stupidity ourselves, we can't let anyone else win a competition without making a good go of it too

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

jhe90 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Not Empire.

But a country free to trade globally, decide own fate and prosper.
That means a relationship with EU too, but with freedom to trade with the commonwealth, to strike new deals, to adapt to changing markets and looks out beyond Europe as well as to it.

Hard to describe.

Exactly

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've got a plan for 21st century Britain. Give me 10 years, a 200 seat majority in the commons, and a £500 billion budget, and I'll make Brexit a success

I have a suggestion...

Spoiler:

We need may divine intervention from the Gods at this rate

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

That was my point: if you're not going to go British Empire again, how do you Make Britain Great Again (and we're talking doable things here, not pipedreams)? You're going to be competing with a bunch of actors that are far more powerful than Britain, why would Britain come out on top?

The days of Britain launching a 3 pronged attack into New England are over. We're never going back there, and nor do I want to.

The USA is obviously a more powerful nation than the UK, but we could be better than them for life expectancy quality of education, inventing things, cultural impact, etc etc

These are achievable goals.

**A Town Called Malus**

jhe90 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but those obstacles you overcame in the past was to a great degree overcome at the expense of others. The scientific and technological breakthroughs were fuelled by the exploitation of colonies and through the bullying of other nations. I'm not trying to shame the United Kingdom (we tried the same thing, as did pretty much everyone else); the point is that you no longer have the clout to dominate the rest of the world like you used to. To a lot of us non-British, calling for a return to "the good old days" or trying to invoke past British achievements just comes across as a call to exploit the hell out of everyone else again. In such a light, it's hard to see how the UK is willing to negotiate in good faith.

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Not Empire.

But a country free to trade globally, decide own fate and prosper.
That means a relationship with EU too, but with freedom to trade with the commonwealth, to strike new deals, to adapt to changing markets and looks out beyond Europe as well as to it.

Hard to describe.

How much effort did the UK make to get trade deals set up with Commonwealth countries whilst it was part of the EU? It could have been a driving force within the EU to get deals set up with those countries.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The days of Britain launching a 3 pronged attack into New England are over. We're never going back there, and nor do I want to.

The USA is obviously a more powerful nation than the UK, but we could be better than them for life expectancy quality of education, inventing things, cultural impact, etc etc

These are achievable goals.

How is the EU stopping you from achieving these goals?

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The days of Britain launching a 3 pronged attack into New England are over. We're never going back there, and nor do I want to.

The USA is obviously a more powerful nation than the UK, but we could be better than them for life expectancy quality of education, inventing things, cultural impact, etc etc

These are achievable goals.

It is not an achievable goal that we will be able to compete with the US on "inventing things". The US population and economy is vastly bigger than ours. That means a lot more people capable of inventing things and more money to be put into making those inventions happen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The days of Britain launching a 3 pronged attack into New England are over. We're never going back there, and nor do I want to.

The USA is obviously a more powerful nation than the UK, but we could be better than them for life expectancy quality of education, inventing things, cultural impact, etc etc

These are achievable goals.

How is the EU stopping you from achieving these goals?

It isn't. Those are all purely internal politics. Not to mention the UK already has a better life expectancy than the US.

**Future War Cultist**

The EU's entention is to assimilate its members via ever closer union. And I don't want to be a part of that. I think we work better as one nation rather than 1/28th of one.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

The ability to invent things is not dependent on size of the population.

Some of the most important things in human history have been discovered or invented in the UK.

TV, Radar, DNA, jet engine, evolution, baseball

modern soccer, the tank, steam trains, world wide web, and Clive Sinclair's C5

to name but a few

Imagine civilization without that stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
The EU's entention is to assimilate its members via ever closer union. And I don't want to be a part of that. I think we work better as one nation rather than 1/28th of one.

Hear hear

**A Town Called Malus**

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Exactly. Those involved in the sciences were majorly in favour of remaining as we see the benefits of membership in the form of funding, sharing of research and personnel etc.

Now the people who voted out are expecting those same people who know full well how much of the UKs science sector is dependant on the EU to somehow leapfrog the USA all on our own.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Science is not done by one person in their private lab any more.

**Future War Cultist**

Going by themselves doesn't seem to do Japan, S. Korea, Australia and New Zealand any harm.

**feeder**

Didn't the Germans invent the jet engine? Part of why Operation Paperclip was so important?

To the Brexiteers, isn't your despair at the British political class juxtapostioned with your decision to invest more power into their hands?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

feeder wrote:
Didn't the Germans invent the jet engine? Part of why Operation Paperclip was so important?

To the Brexiteers, isn't your despair at the British political class juxtapostioned with your decision to invest more power into their hands?

As opposed to the remote and even less accountable political class in Brussels?

As much as I might despise our current Government, we have a far better chance of overthrowing a British Government than we do a European Government.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Science has changed somewhat in the past 150 years. I have multiple friends starting EU funded PhD's in the next few months, without EU money these wouldn't exist the research and developments they'll make wouldn't exist you can't say the UK will be scientifically better off out of the EU, unless the UK government are going to cover these costs which I can't see happening.

This is knowledge which will help patients in the UK and jobs in the UK that are going to some other country and will eventually see graduates leaving the country.

**feeder**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
feeder wrote:
Didn't the Germans invent the jet engine? Part of why Operation Paperclip was so important?

To the Brexiteers, isn't your despair at the British political class juxtapostioned with your decision to invest more power into their hands?

As opposed to the remote and even less accountable political class in Brussels?

As much as I might despise our current Government, we have a far better chance of overthrowing a British Government than we do a European Government.

It would be easier to move to a functioning country like Germany when May/Gove/Johnson/whoever inevitably destroys the UK middle class if you're in the EU, though

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Science has changed somewhat in the past 150 years. I have multiple friends starting EU funded PhD's in the next few months, without EU money these wouldn't exist the research and developments they'll make wouldn't exist you can't say the UK will be scientifically better off out of the EU, unless the UK government are going to cover these costs which I can't see happening.

This is knowledge which will help patients in the UK and jobs in the UK that are going to some other country and will eventually see graduates leaving the country.

Yeah, I totally agree. This isn't the Victorian times where one man in his shed invents the time machine or something

but on a serious note, even a modern example i.e the discovery of DNA was done in the UK long before the EEC or the EU existed.

Britain's world class universities will still be world class in the future.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Just a bit of nitpicking, but DNA was discovered by Swiss scientist Friedrich Miescher. What Watson and Crick did was suggest the double-helix model.

**Howard A Treesong**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354019

Finally something is being done about some of the problems with renting in this country. Like letting agents trumping up huge fees to 'make a new contract' every six months of a tenancy.

"A ban on letting agent fees will cost the sector jobs, make buy-to-let investment even less attractive, and ultimately result in the costs being passed on to tenants,"

Boo hoo. So the fact letters won't be able to insist you pay hundreds of pounds in fees every six months to organise the photocopying of a new contract means greedy buy to let owners are put off.

They talk about how it'll cost jobs and hit the industry hard, but it shows what a state this industry is when it's only really profitable when legalised scamming and extortion is enabled. 'Oh yes, you're at the end of your six month contract so that'll be another £300 fees to start a new one or you're out. No, we don't do more than six month contracts, as it happens'.

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Science has changed somewhat in the past 150 years. I have multiple friends starting EU funded PhD's in the next few months, without EU money these wouldn't exist the research and developments they'll make wouldn't exist you can't say the UK will be scientifically better off out of the EU, unless the UK government are going to cover these costs which I can't see happening.

This is knowledge which will help patients in the UK and jobs in the UK that are going to some other country and will eventually see graduates leaving the country.

Yeah, I totally agree. This isn't the Victorian times where one man in his shed invents the time machine or something

but on a serious note, even a modern example i.e the discovery of DNA was done in the UK long before the EEC or the EU existed.

Britain's world class universities will still be world class in the future.

Britains world class universities are world class because they can attract world class talent for research. If they lose access to programs which are funding that research they will lose those world class researchers.

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I don't want a return to the days of empire. I've never argued for that. The Empire is behind us and good riddance to it. I'm making the point that we can be the best again in education, science, sports, engineering and design inventing stuff, making this the best country in the world for quality of life etc etc

Scientific development will suffer massively outside of the EU though. Not only do they fund a lot of PhD's across the country and there are a large amount of drug development companies in London hat are set to move with Brexit.

Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, and Humphry Davy were changing the world long before Juncker rolled into his tax payer funded luxury office.

Science has changed somewhat in the past 150 years. I have multiple friends starting EU funded PhD's in the next few months, without EU money these wouldn't exist the research and developments they'll make wouldn't exist you can't say the UK will be scientifically better off out of the EU, unless the UK government are going to cover these costs which I can't see happening.

This is knowledge which will help patients in the UK and jobs in the UK that are going to some other country and will eventually see graduates leaving the country.

Yeah, I totally agree. This isn't the Victorian times where one man in his shed invents the time machine or something

but on a serious note, even a modern example i.e the discovery of DNA was done in the UK long before the EEC or the EU existed.

Britain's world class universities will still be world class in the future.

It's very easy to say that University's will keep up research but where's the money going to come from? Research costs massive amounts of money, money that the Uni can't cover themselves..

**A Town Called Malus**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354019

Finally something is being done about some of the problems with renting in this country. Like letting agents trumping up huge fees to 'make a new contract' every six months of a tenancy.

"A ban on letting agent fees will cost the sector jobs, make buy-to-let investment even less attractive, and ultimately result in the costs being passed on to tenants,"

Boo hoo. So the fact letters won't be able to insist you pay hundreds of pounds in fees every six months to organise the photocopying of a new contract means greedy buy to let owners are put off.

They talk about how it'll cost jobs and hit the industry hard, but it shows what a state this industry is when it's only really profitable when legalised scamming and extortion is enabled. 'Oh yes, you're at the end of your six month contract so that'll be another £300 fees to start a new one or you're out. No, we don't do more than six month contracts, as it happens'.

Yup. To get an idea of how ridiculous these "fees" are, consider that many estate agents charge a percentage of the monthly rent as their "fee". So if you're renting a £1000 a month property you pay more than someone renting a £400 a month property, despite you both getting the exact same "service" (i.e. a tenancy agreement taken off the internet and with yours and the landlords names put in).