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The money lost from eu funding can be returned via better taxation. I've said before how I think we can get more money (legalisation of cannabis, better implemented corporate tax). What we do can be done on our own terms too.

Yeah, the idea of making "Buy to let" investment less attractive isn't exactly filling my heart with sorrow. And that's with various close family of mine owning homes that they *are* renting out (broadly speaking, downsized homes owned by parents and grandparents who have passed on).

I watched a lot of the debate and responses to the Queens Speech today. I've got to say, I don't understand a whole lot of it. - Shouldn't Corbyn, for example, have been focused on poking holes in and breaking down the speech, challenging it and any assumptions made therein rather than just repeating his manifesto and saying, "you should do this instead!!!!!!" Cause that just felt dumb and pointless and a missed opportunity. Although, I admit, I did miss a bit of his speech, so, feel free to prove me wrong.

On the subject of pointless though, there was also what seemed to be some ceremony with the two Tory speakers, the first guy I wasn't sure on myself, but people seemed to like. The second guy though, Sam Gyimah, I did very much like and hopefully he'll be a rising star going forward.

One thing that did really bug me was when you had a labour/SNP speaker say:

"So about this cut in police budgets, are you going to reverse that?"

To the reply of:

"Counterterrorism funding has increased. The police budgets haven't been cut and have been protected. You're wrong."

Then they moved on. That just felt so very well, disappointing and, dare I say it, American. Whether the funding has increased or decreased isn't a topic for debate or pointscoring. One way, or another, that is a fact with money going one way or another. That shouldn't be something they're arguing about. The numerical facts should be known and agreed. The *reasons* for them should be what's discussed.

/soapbox

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The money lost from eu funding can be returned via better taxation. I've said before how I think we can get more money (legalisation of cannabis, better implemented corporate tax). What we do can be done on our own terms too.

We could do all that right now. So we could have better taxation plus EU funding.

Also, you haven't said how we're going to replace access to EU run science programs. It is more than just money.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The money lost from eu funding can be returned via better taxation. I've said before how I think we can get more money (legalisation of cannabis, better implemented corporate tax). What we do can be done on our own terms too.

the issue here, much like many current US political debacles (mainly healthcare), is that while one may have issues with the current system, there's a...huge difference between "well if we dump it we can do X and Y to make up for Z" and actually having a plan, implementation strategy, buy in by relevant parties, and agreement from leaders to do so, and having all of that in place in a timely manner.

It's like moving out of a house that needs work. Even assuming you can find and theoretically afford something better (by no means certain), you should probably actually have secured a new house, packed all your stuff, arranged movers and planned the move, gotten all your bills switched over, arranged the new mortgage paperwork, and set up utilities in the new place, etc...before moving out, otherwise sitting on the street corner with all your stuff is going to be rather awkward.

Both the US and UK are steaming full speed ahead on new houses of their own flavors...seemingly without having done any of that legwork ahead of time.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The money lost from eu funding can be returned via better taxation. I've said before how I think we can get more money (legalisation of cannabis, better implemented corporate tax). What we do can be done on our own terms too.

We could do all that right now. So we could have better taxation plus EU funding.

Also, you haven't said how we're going to replace access to EU run science programs. It is more than just money.

Exactly science isn't just the one lab but many labs across different countries working together and being out of the EU is detrimental to this. Many of those working in research positions across the UK are also foreign, and Brexit has made the UK a lot less appealing to foreign students and has also given, rightly or wrongly, an impression that there is a level of xenophobia in the country.

Personally I'm a remainer, however, I honestly don't know much about the whole topic of Brexit and can't really get involved with the larger debate about how overall it will work out, but the one thing I am confident on is that for Science in the UK Brexit is a serious road block.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The ability to invent things is not dependent on size of the population.

Some of the most important things in human history have been discovered or invented in the UK.

TV, Radar, DNA, jet engine, evolution, baseball modern soccer, the tank, steam trains, world wide web, and Clive Sinclair's C5

to name but a few

Imagine civilization without that stuff.

No but the probability of it is a lot higher when you have the money and staff. If you've got a workforce of 1000 working on something they are much more likely to find a solution than one person tinkering in the backyard. Your example of the WWW is just this. It might have been a British person, but he was working at CERN in Switzerland that has a work force of 10000 from over a 100 countries. Just because someone from X invented something doesn't mean Y wouldn't have done if X wasn't there. The science world works on free movement of people and ideas, those countries that restrain that always suffer. Every scientist is pointing out just had problematic Brexit is going to be for the UK and that is before you consider half the funding it has access to will dry up overnight. Scientists are already leaving (both UK and non-UK ones); they aren't waiting to find out how hard Brexit is - and why wouldn't you. If you are living in the EU when Brexit happens you will still have access to all the money. You are going to see UK achievements come crashing down unless the government invest heavily and in the last 10-20 years you have had exactly the opposite because of how successful the UK is in obtaining EU funding for science projects.

The idea that we can still have scientists and inventors making things like we did in 1600 to 1900s is incredibly naïve and archaic. Science doesn't work like that anymore. The easy discoveries are gone, now you need conglomerations of scientists that can work together freely. The EU competes with the US exceedingly well. The EU will continue to compete. The UK science community will suffer terribly.

And this is before you have issues like get access to the technologies. Both the US and EU ensure limited access to restricted material. You are going to have more and more situations like this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40336549

and companies will have to move and limit their employees to being from the EU. The UK might have spaceports but they will be barren moss covered slabs of concrete.

The previous revolution was based on a coal and steel world that has gone now....so steam tanks, jet engines are all technologies based on this type of revolution. The world has moved on and some in the UK seem to want to go back to way things were. It's not going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354019

Finally something is being done about some of the problems with renting in this country. Like letting agents trumping up huge fees to 'make a new contract' every six months of a tenancy.

"A ban on letting agent fees will cost the sector jobs, make buy-to-let investment even less attractive, and ultimately result in the costs being passed on to tenants,"

Boo hoo. So the fact letters won't be able to insist you pay hundreds of pounds in fees every six months to organise the photocopying of a new contract means greedy buy to let owners are put off.

They talk about how it'll cost jobs and hit the industry hard, but it shows what a state this industry is when it's only really profitable when legalised scamming and extortion is enabled. 'Oh yes, you're at the end of your six month contract so that'll be another £300 fees to start a new one or you're out. No, we don't do more than six month contracts, as it happens'.

The problem is that it won't solve the problem. All that will happen is that costs will be put on the landlord who will then put up rent prices. It will almost certainly be badly implemented. You'll just see a step change in prices because of it. There's no doubt it is exploited but rather than hiding it in costs it would likely be better to regulate the rental market better and include minimum requirements/terms/periods when such checks can be undertaken (and which ones).

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354019

Finally something is being done about some of the problems with renting in this country. Like letting agents trumping up huge fees to 'make a new contract' every six months of a tenancy.

"A ban on letting agent fees will cost the sector jobs, make buy-to-let investment even less attractive, and ultimately result in the costs being passed on to tenants,"

Boo hoo. So the fact letters won't be able to insist you pay hundreds of pounds in fees every six months to organise the photocopying of a new contract means greedy buy to let owners are put off.

They talk about how it'll cost jobs and hit the industry hard, but it shows what a state this industry is when it's only really profitable when legalised scamming and extortion is enabled. 'Oh yes, you're at the end of your six month contract so that'll be another £300 fees to start a new one or you're out. No, we don't do more than six month contracts, as it happens'.

The problem is that it won't solve the problem. All that will happen is that costs will be put on the landlord who will then put up rent prices. It will almost certainly be badly implemented. You'll just see a step change in prices because of it. There's no doubt it is exploited but rather than hiding it in costs it would likely be better to regulate the rental market better and include minimum requirements/terms/periods when such checks can be undertaken (and which ones).

Often the landlord is being charged for these services as well as the tenants already.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Often the landlord is being charged for these services as well as the tenants already.

Quite possibly, but even in this case you will probably just see the fees on the landlords rise. People already pay these fees (whether fair or not). Letting agencies aren't suddenly going to let them drop when they already know they can extract this amount of money from people. It will just be charged in different ways.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The EU's entention is to assimilate its members via ever closer union. And I don't want to be a part of that. I think we work better as one nation rather than 1/28th of one.

Aye.I believe Europe matters but not wanna be so deep in we lose are own identity or own democratic tradition.
Yes work with EU... Not be absorbed.

There are so many ways that Brexit damages the UK's economy and international power that it isn't funny.

Yes, we can hope to recover from that damage. It will be a uphill fight just to get back to level pegging, let alone advance from where we are now.

The sad thing is that the UK could have fething well PWNED the EU. The Germans loved us, the Poles loved us, the Scandies loved us. We were the natural bridge from the USA and Far East into the EU. All gone.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

There are so many ways that Brexit damages the UK's economy and international power that it isn't funny.

Yes, we can hope to recover from that damage. It will be a uphill fight just to get back to level pegging, let alone advance from where we are now.

The sad thing is that the UK could have fething well PWNED the EU. The Germans loved us, the Poles loved us, the Scandies loved us. We were the natural bridge from the USA and Far East into the EU. All gone.

Yes, but the EU pushed too hard for "Ever closer union", the UK got cold feet and decided to leave.

Perhaps if the EU Elite had not pushed the boundaries so far and been less dogmatic on European political integration (e.g. agreed to the Two Tier Europe idea) then it might not have come to this.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

There are so many ways that Brexit damages the UK's economy and international power that it isn't funny.

Yes, we can hope to recover from that damage. It will be a uphill fight just to get back to level pegging, let alone advance from where we are now.

The sad thing is that the UK could have fething well PWNED the EU. The Germans loved us, the Poles loved us, the Scandies loved us. We were the natural bridge from the USA and Far East into the EU. All gone.

Yes, but the EU pushed too hard for "Ever closer union", the UK got cold feet and decided to leave.

Perhaps if the EU Elite had not pushed the boundaries so far and been less dogmatic on European political integration (e.g. agreed to the Two Tier Europe idea) then it might not have come to this.

We were part of the EU elite.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The EU's entention is to assimilate its members via ever closer union. And I don't want to be a part of that. I think we work better as one nation rather than 1/28th of one.

Aye.I believe Europe matters but not wanna be so deep in we lose are own identity or own democratic tradition.
Yes work with EU... Not be absorbed.

We have been sharing genes and ideas with Europe for at least the last 2000 years. We aren't going to become the Borg by joining the EU. Even the most 'integrated' nations still have their own cultures and traditions. If you mean our identity might change then yes it will and that will happen regardless of what happens. You are wishing for a hopeless task if you want to press 'stop' or 'rewind' on the tape player because it simply isn't going to happen.

As for democratic tradition I think I'd take the EUs over ours...in this country the minority can decide the future of the majority. At least with the EU it is proportional to what all of the nations populace wants. I suppose we wouldn't be happy unless the UK could impose it's will on everyone like we did 100-200 years ago, because we are just superior?

If anyone hasn't seen it I'd highly recommend the Brexit mean Brexit show that's on BBC 2, very interesting insight into what the politicians were really thinking. It's also great seeing a recap of the Tories messing it right up haha, May really could write a book on how to balls up an easy victory.

Even though I cant stand the man Farage did get a few chuckles out of me.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Yes, but the EU pushed too hard for "Ever closer union", the UK got cold feet and decided to leave.

Perhaps if the EU Elite had not pushed the boundaries so far and been less dogmatic on European political integration (e.g. agreed to the Two Tier Europe idea) then it might not have come to this.

Changing subject slightly.

Today was this whole, "Day of Rage" million person march on London thing... Most of the photographs I've seen are more like. "Day of mild peevedishness."

 Compel wrote:
Changing subject slightly.

Today was this whole, "Day of Rage" million person march on London thing... Most of the photographs I've seen are more like. "Day of mild peevedishness."

Day of minor peeves...
It's about at level of finding you ripped a tea bag splitting them in morning and need to get a new one.

It's low on the scale. No where near the defcon status of office out of tea/coffee.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Often the landlord is being charged for these services as well as the tenants already.

Quite possibly, but even in this case you will probably just see the fees on the landlords rise. People already pay these fees (whether fair or not). Letting agencies aren't suddenly going to let them drop when they already know they can extract this amount of money from people. It will just be charged in different ways.

It'll be clearer what the full costs of renting is, as it's spread out on the monthly rent and you know what your regular payment is. As currently stands, you get the advertised monthly rent and then whenever the contract needs renewing, they get a bonus off you of whatever they want - or you leave the property. I know which system I prefer.

What does it say about this industry that they're worried that buy-to-lets aren't as viable because they can't find dubious ways screw money from people in ways other than the monthly rent.

The fees are for taking references, getting credit checks, or investigating immigration status

It's just a fat earner for letting companies. Checking references and a credit check does not warrant an average in £200 fees, with some areas being much higher, and immigration status doesn't even apply to the majority.

I avoid such lettings agents, especially those who 'manage' properties of third parties, ie, buy-to-let people who know nothing about letting and just want the money but none of the hassle. I prefer to get my rents through private lets in newspapers and deal direct with the owner. Funnily enough, they don't tend to have silly fees for credit checks, which I'm not prepared to comply with, they just want proof you're in full time work and have a suitable salary.

A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

You might have a point if we weren't selling those countries in the Middle East missiles. As long as we are selling weapons, I believe we have a responsibility to ensure they are used responsibly and if we find they are being misused we must take action to ensure it does not happen again.

Also, I dislike the idea of just sitting back and letting people get blown up if we have the power to do something to help, however small.

If you force the Queen to miss Ascot, don't be surprised if she turns up in a giant EU hat
Was it an accident, this nakedly pro-Brussels bonnet? One suspects we will never know the truth, but given one commenter on the Daily Mail website was sufficiently enraged to describe the Queen herself as a “left liberal luvvie traitor!!!” we probably do not need to

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/queens-speech-ascot-eu-flag-hat-a7801611.html?cmpid=facebook-post

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

They really are. No country has ever become a world leader through isolation.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

They really are. No country has ever become a world leader through isolation.

Well...depends on what aspect of "world leaders" .

I think the financial market will still be humming along in London for that matter, post-Brexit.

Don't forget, the same gumption and grit that made the British Empire successful is still there. (note, I'm not advocating for a resurrection of the Empire ). Only that, it seems some of ya'll seems to be selling yourselves short.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

They really are. No country has ever become a world leader through isolation.

Yeah...closests is pre WW2 US.

It was obvious they where quite capable of being a danger but...
They where also where not known to be so scary Japan thought they would back off.

They decided not to intervene. But they still where half n half, and had international intrests, and still got a bloody nose...

It Reilly is one or other...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

They really are. No country has ever become a world leader through isolation.

I hate to Godwin the thread but...Nazi Germany.

(and no, I'm not saying we should seek to emulate Nazi Germany. )

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people seem to be bemoaning the UK's loss of influence on the world stage when it leaves the EU.

I for one would be very glad if this happened. I want us to stay the hell away from the world's stage.

If the Americans want to run around the Middle East repeating the mistakes of the British Empire, then good luck to them. If the EU wants its own army to take on the Russians, then good luck to the EU.

We, Britain, have went above and beyond over the years when it comes to defending peace, liberty and freedom. I would not mind if we went isolationist for a while.

World-leading powerhouse or isolationist. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Sure you can... they ain't mutually exclusives.

They really are. No country has ever become a world leader through isolation.

I hate to Godwin the thread but...Nazi Germany.

(and no, I'm not saying we should seek to emulate Nazi Germany. )

Sure, if we ignore Nazi Germanys remilitarization of the Rhineland, annexation of Austria and the Czech Republic, interference in the Spanish Civil War etc.

Nazi Germany was certainly not isolationist, it was all about expansion.

A late reply to an earlier point, if the EU isn't interested in future coperation with us in scientific research, there's always everywhere else. The eu isn't the be all and end all of everything.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
A late reply to an earlier point, if the EU isn't interested in future coperation with us in scientific research, there's always everywhere else. The eu isn't the be all and end all of everything.

Ahem... 'murrica here. We 'bout big as EU:


We have thinking places...