Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We need them far more than they need us though...

Then why are they so desperate to squeeze a massive divorce payment out of us, and expect us to continue paying alimony for years to come?

Because they need us and our money...

I'd have thought it was because of all the science funding projects and other various that we'd signed up to, but that's far less interesting a headline.

All of which will suffer significant funding shortfalls if we withdraw.

Ergo...they need our money.

You'd think that but if you work out the actual numbers they don't agree with you we make up about 5-6% of the eu budget. So assuming the budget stats the same (cost savings and Brexit costs level out and EU27 economies stay the same) they need to make up a shortfall of £8bn. Our transition offer was for £5-10bn/year so if we keep that up going forward they just about break even.

They just want us to pay for the stuff we committed to whilst we were members.

They really don't need our money anything like as badly as we need theirs.

I doubt we'd ever make up the trading shortfall with non eu markets.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A week is a long time in politics, a year is an eternity.

A year is an eternity in politics. It's about two minutes in international state-level trade negotiations. And this is the latter.

The German car manufactures will come through for us. I have the utmost faith in them...

Wait, you want to Leave the EU, but want EU companies to stop us sliding into oblivion. This seems like just erh....a slight contradiction...

 Whirlwind wrote:

Wait, you want to Leave the EU, but want EU companies to stop us sliding into oblivion. This seems like just erh....a slight contradiction...

Seems like regular brexiteer mentality to me: "I want to have the cake and eat it too".

If we're paying for the cake its only fair we get a slice.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:


Daily Heil is a bit of a stretch (although it isn't great), and the express really isn't that bad, unless there's a large body of terrible things the Express has said that I'm not aware of.

No they are not at all, after all they don't recommend trying to imply UK judges are our enemy after splashing their faces on the front page...



or that we should fight them on the beaches...



or perhaps undertake aggressive actions against those that think Remaining in the EU is a good idea..



or just lie about immigration/EU to stir up racial tensions



That you are not seeing it is probably most worrying though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
So the opposite of what was claimed during the referendum then.

Brexit really is a cult indeed.

facts be damned.

And it's suppprters are...what exactly? Come on, spit it out.

Maybe some of the politicians said it would be easy but I was under no such delusion. I knew it would be hard but I'm thinking long term.

Well strictly speaking by the English dictionary that would be cultists...GW do a line in these I believe

Yeah the Mail and Express are pretty much newspapers for an echo chamber of hatred and bigotry.

I may be mis remembering but before 'the imagrantz' wasnt the express' main preoccupation deifying Diana and reporting on evil machinations of Prince Philip?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its a sad day when even the Mods start breaking rule #1...

That's not really correct, because it's not being specific about anyone. A cult generally benefits the person at the top who (or whom) exploit the 'cultists'. They are however persuaded (as all humans are apt to be by a dominating persona) that regardless of facts or figures their cult is right and will do anything to defend it. Wrexit is a lot like this, there are people that will support it (and their masters) until the end of the world.

We've gone from "Remainers are making up the (realistic) bad news" to:-
"It will only temporarily be an issue, we can still have all that we want and not have the bad bits", to
"It will be bad to start off with but it will get better after a short recession because of the weak £", to
"It will be better in the non-specified long term, whether that be 20 or 200 years" (basically in a time period so far in the distance that individuals saying it don't really have to worry about the consequences) , to
"If companies aren't making the most of the weak £ that is their fault" or alternatively "it's all the remainers fault they aren't pulling their weight"

It's basically shifting responsibility whilst still being in awe over the numb skulls that started and continue the whole fiasco.

I would point out that a lot of cults end with the cultists committing suicide. Now in this case I would argue that would be more metaphorically speaking in an economic and social sense when people get so invested and don't want to accept the problems that they are willing to give up their (or families) current aspirations, jobs, NHS etc just so that Wrexit can happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If we're paying for the cake its only fair we get a slice.

Why should we get a fair share of the German manufacturing industry? How does this even make sense?

The racism of the Express is difficult to deny.

Express: Evil EU. Diana. Statins. Red Wine will kill you. Red Wine will make you immortal. X took our jerbs!


I think that about covers it. They're a national embarrassment in my personal opinion.

I'm not exactly a cheerleader for the Mail, either.

And this is as someone who has discussed leaning towards brexit in this thread.



Essentially, this is still as true today as it was true 29 years ago.

 Whirlwind wrote:
Well strictly speaking by the English dictionary that would be cultists...GW do a line in these I believe.

When DINLT made a quip in a similar vein to this Motyak felt the need to repremand him. I highly doubt the same will happen to you though.

Also all that guff about us who voted Brexit blindly following our 'masters' is deeply patronising.

 Whirlwind wrote:
Why should we get a fair share of the German manufacturing industry? How does this even make sense?

Um, it doesn't? Because I wasn't talking about that. Stop making gak up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its a sad day when even the Mods start breaking rule #1...

That's not really correct, because it's not being specific about anyone. A cult generally benefits the person at the top who (or whom) exploit the 'cultists'. They are however persuaded (as all humans are apt to be by a dominating persona) that regardless of facts or figures their cult is right and will do anything to defend it. Wrexit is a lot like this, there are people that will support it (and their masters) until the end of the world.

We've gone from "Remainers are making up the (realistic) bad news" to:-
"It will only temporarily be an issue, we can still have all that we want and not have the bad bits", to
"It will be bad to start off with but it will get better after a short recession because of the weak £", to
"It will be better in the non-specified long term, whether that be 20 or 200 years" (basically in a time period so far in the distance that individuals saying it don't really have to worry about the consequences) , to
"If companies aren't making the most of the weak £ that is their fault" or alternatively "it's all the remainers fault they aren't pulling their weight"

It's basically shifting responsibility whilst still being in awe over the numb skulls that started and continue the whole fiasco.

I would point out that a lot of cults end with the cultists committing suicide. Now in this case I would argue that would be more metaphorically speaking in an economic and social sense when people get so invested and don't want to accept the problems that they are willing to give up their (or families) current aspirations, jobs, NHS etc just so that Wrexit can happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If we're paying for the cake its only fair we get a slice.

Why should we get a fair share of the German manufacturing industry? How does this even make sense?

Stop pulling your punches and let us know what you really think. We're all thick bigoted knuckle dragging neanderthal cult followers who shouldn't be allowed to vote?

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A week is a long time in politics, a year is an eternity.

A year is an eternity in politics. It's about two minutes in international state-level trade negotiations. And this is the latter.

The German car manufactures will come through for us. I have the utmost faith in them...

Wait, you want to Leave the EU, but want EU companies to stop us sliding into oblivion. This seems like just erh....a slight contradiction...

I assumed he was being sarcastic rather than clinging onto the notion that because we buy lots of German cars (3rd biggest market iirc) that they'll sway the German government and therefore the UK to get us our good deal.

Unfortunately the German car industry have made it clear that they aren't going to do that.

Then German cars become less price competitive in the UK market due to tariffs and American or Asian cars become relatively more competitive.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Stop pulling your punches and let us know what you really think. We're all thick bigoted knuckle dragging neanderthal cult followers who shouldn't be allowed to vote?

You've been lied to from the start and some of you still believe it or engaging full on cognate dissonance to avoid admitting you were fooled. There are some valid reasons to leave the EU; I'm not saying you were wrong to have those views, but you're going to be hugely disappointed when we actually leave becuase we'll make such a bad job of ut

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Well strictly speaking by the English dictionary that would be cultists...GW do a line in these I believe.

When DINLT made a quip in a similar vein to this Motyak felt the need to repremand him. I highly doubt the same will happen to you though.

There was a question asked, and I answered the question. I also pointed out that GW make models for cultists (both Chaos and Genestealers, and they are good looking models too). I'm failing to see why I should be reprimanded for two facts? I'm not sure what interpretation has gone on here?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Then German cars become less price competitive in the UK market due to tariffs and American or Asian cars become relatively more competitive.

Yup, and they'll get over it pretty quickly. Sales are already down and we haven't left yet.
That said; they are aspirational cars and usually in finance so I don't think the buyers are that price sensitive. In fact them getting 20% more expensive makes them better for showing up the Jones' next door.

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Stop pulling your punches and let us know what you really think. We're all thick bigoted knuckle dragging neanderthal cult followers who shouldn't be allowed to vote?

You've been lied to from the start and some of you still believe it or engaging full on cognate dissonance to avoid admitting you were fooled. There are some valid reasons to leave the EU; I'm not saying you were wrong to have those views, but you're going to be hugely disappointed when we actually leave becuase we'll make such a bad job of ut

I paid very little attention to the Brexit campaigners.

I know the politicians were lying to us. So were the Remainers. I made my decision years before the Referendum and I voted on principle, I am fundamentally opposed to the establishment of a European super state which is the openly stated end game of the EU, so stop trying to undermine my agency and questioning my capacity to think for myself by suggesting I didn't know what I was doing and was hoodwinked.

I wasn't hoodwinked, I knew what I wanted a decade in advance and I voted for it, fully accepting the likely damage to the economy. I have no doubt that our politicians will make a mess of Brexit but I don't care. I'd still vote the same way. My principles haven't changed and won't change no matter how disastrous Brexit turns out to be.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:
Why should we get a fair share of the German manufacturing industry? How does this even make sense?

Um, it doesn't? Because I wasn't talking about that. Stop making gak up.

Maybe then it was a poorly timed response (in terms of when it was posting). The chain of responses was

DINLT made a comment on the German car industry.
I commented that it was contradictory to expect a foreign industry to help us out.
Minsc commented that it was it was having a cake and eating it philosophy.
You commented that if we pay we should have a slice of the cake.

Therefore I couldn't really understand why the UK should have a share of the German car industry and that it didn't make sense to?

Stop pulling your punches and let us know what you really think. We're all thick bigoted knuckle dragging neanderthal cult followers who shouldn't be allowed to vote?

When have I ever said that? If I was I'd be calling both my parents and youngest brother the same thing? That doesn't mean I don't argue points with them. I commented that some people are taking what could be classed as a cultist mentality to Wrexit. In that regardless of the damage it causes it must be completed. I didn't say anyone here was and I specifically attempted to word that some people were not "people here" for example. You only have to peruse the BBC comments section on pretty much any article on Wrexit. Some of them really are pretty appalling even after being moderated. However I would agree with the previous sentiment from red8n that for some Wrexit is garnering a type of cult recognition. Rational argument goes by the way side to get it done regardless of cost to people, families (noting there has been a survey on this). This is similar to a cult type mentality. There are a few high profile people that are pushing the agenda who are likely to get very wealthy from it. I do not think they care about those people struggling and will struggle even more because of Wrexit.

You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

And then there are those of you that don't care what happens as long as we leave the eu. No hardship to much to get away from what you think the eu is turning into. I've never been able to find out if you have a red line anywhere. Like "I'm glad we got out of the eu but maybe it wasn't worth giving up electricity for" or something.

Herzlos wrote:
You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

Which is exactly what was and IS happening.

All our mainstream political parties with any real power are pro EU. They're all in favour of further EU integration. They don't represent my interests, so the only option I had was to vote to Leave. Our political leaders certainly weren't going to put a stop to EU integration.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

Which is exactly what was and IS happening.

All our mainstream political parties with any real power are pro EU. They're all in favour of further EU integration. They don't represent my interests, so the only option I had was to vote to Leave. Our political leaders certainly weren't going to put a stop to EU integration.

Ah, so you're not trying to claim it's turning into a super state against its members wishes like DINLT does?

Maybe it's me but I don't see the problem if all members agree.

I covered this when I was talking about how the Lisbon treaty was signed. They went straight to Brown's government (who really were unelected. At least May has a referendum and an election for her mandate) and buttered them up to sign it. Us plebs had no say in it at all. So it's all well and good saying the super state won't happen without our consent, but the truth is they only need to bribe some of our top level politicians to get what they want.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


I know the politicians were lying to us. So were the Remainers. I made my decision years before the Referendum and I voted on principle, I am fundamentally opposed to the establishment of a European super state which is the openly stated end game of the EU, so stop trying to undermine my agency and questioning my capacity to think for myself by suggesting I didn't know what I was doing and was hoodwinked.

I wasn't hoodwinked, I knew what I wanted a decade in advance and I voted for it, fully accepting the likely damage to the economy. I have no doubt that our politicians will make a mess of Brexit but I don't care. I'd still vote the same way. My principles haven't changed and won't change no matter how disastrous Brexit turns out to be.

Ermmmm. So regardless of what evidence is presented or happens you will always support Brexit because of fears over a superstate (not that this is on the cards at all anyway). But hypothetically speaking what is it about a superstate that you are so opposed to? Being opposed to it is fine, but EU superstate seems to get thrown around like candy but no one ever explains why they are opposed to it or why it is such a bad thing? The US for example could be considered a superstate?

Secondly are there absolutely no red lines that you would not cross (or expect the government not to do so) to ensure Wrexit is achieved. Hypothetically speaking again, suppose that after Wrexit we are poorer (generally expected now by all sides from the conversations); the government therefore cuts back on the NHS that leaves the poorest more exposed to illness. That conversely ends with large delays to treatment and in the end results in increased premature deaths (let us for example assume that because of the increased waiting times for cancer treatment that child mortality increases, lets suppose linked to poor air quality due to the government not having the ability to tackle it). Would this be a red line we shouldn't cross or do we have to accept this consequence?

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

Which is exactly what was and IS happening.

All our mainstream political parties with any real power are pro EU. They're all in favour of further EU integration. They don't represent my interests, so the only option I had was to vote to Leave. Our political leaders certainly weren't going to put a stop to EU integration.

Ah, so you're not trying to claim it's turning into a super state against its members wishes like DINLT does?

Maybe it's me but I don't see the problem if all members agree.

The politicians agree. I don't.

The problem is that our leaders' personal views do not align with the majority of voters views, as we saw in the referendum.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I covered this when I was talking about how the Lisbon treaty was signed. They went straight to Brown's government (who really were unelected. At least May has a referendum and an election for her mandate) and buttered them up to sign it. Us plebs had no say in it at all. So it's all well and good saying the super state won't happen without our consent, but the truth is they only need to bribe some of our top level politicians to get what they want.

In what way are (or were) our politicians bribed? There is also an argument here that we could have then stopped further integration if we voted for different political parties, so why didn't we? Surely that was in our power to do so. This surely flies in the face of the argument that the EU just imposed laws on us and we had no say on the issue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

Which is exactly what was and IS happening.

All our mainstream political parties with any real power are pro EU. They're all in favour of further EU integration. They don't represent my interests, so the only option I had was to vote to Leave. Our political leaders certainly weren't going to put a stop to EU integration.

Ah, so you're not trying to claim it's turning into a super state against its members wishes like DINLT does?

Maybe it's me but I don't see the problem if all members agree.

The politicians agree. I don't.

The problem is that our leaders' personal views do not align with the majority of voters views, as we saw in the referendum.

That's not quite correct. 33% of the population voted against, 33% for and 33% we don't know about (or don't care enough to vote which we could assume means that they were fine as is). On that basis that means only 33% of people actually don't like being in the EU (or care enough about it) which in MPs terms is actually not that far from the number that actually supported Wrexit.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
You've been completely untouched by decades of anti eu press? Where do you get the information about the super stare from?

I'm not saying it's a conscious bias or buy in to the lies, but they are lies all the same. An EU superstate would only have happened if everyone let it.

Which is exactly what was and IS happening.

All our mainstream political parties with any real power are pro EU. They're all in favour of further EU integration. They don't represent my interests, so the only option I had was to vote to Leave. Our political leaders certainly weren't going to put a stop to EU integration.

Ah, so you're not trying to claim it's turning into a super state against its members wishes like DINLT does?

Maybe it's me but I don't see the problem if all members agree.

The politicians agree. I don't.

The problem is that our leaders' personal views do not align with the majority of voters views, as we saw in the referendum.

The politicians are elected representatives. If you don't like what they are doing then you petition or replace them. I'd that doesn't work maybe the majority doesn't agree with you.

You don't pull us out of our biggest and closest trading union because you don't like what your MP does, because your MP isn't going to change.

Herzlos wrote:
You don't pull us out of our biggest and closest trading union because you don't like what your MP does, because your MP isn't going to change.

I can and I did. Deal with it.

But its not just a trading union is it? Its also a political union and a nascent state in its own right that is slowly developing all the organisations and instruments of a State.

If it was only just a trading union, I probably wouldn't have voted to leave it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:
That's not quite correct. 33% of the population voted against, 33% for and 33% we don't know about (or don't care enough to vote which we could assume means that they were fine as is). On that basis that means only 33% of people actually don't like being in the EU (or care enough about it) which in MPs terms is actually not that far from the number that actually supported Wrexit.

Can't help but notice how you're fiddling those percentages in your favour. Probably rounding up and rounding, to square that round hole and make them match up.

I prefer hard facts.

16,141,241 people voted Remain.
17,410,742 people voted Leave.

Those numbers are not identical no matter how much you try to spin it.

33% we don't know about (or don't care enough to vote which we could assume means that they were fine as is).

Of the people who chose not to vote, I care not. They should have voted if they wanted their voices to be counted.

Ultimately we DON'T know, so we shouldn't be assuming ANYTHING about what they think. The fact that you're keen to assume they're "fine" with the status quo just shows your bias. I don't assume anything about what they think and neither should you.

What about those that can't vote? Should we care about them?

Our representatives need to take into account the lives of all their constituency and not just those that had the statistically insignificant majority.

However you present the numbers, just over a third of us voted out, just under a third voted in, about a third didn't vote.

I still don't know what you dislike so much about a notional superstate? And why you dislike it so much you're happy to watch the world burn.

How do you feel about a 2nd referendum if the feeling I'd the public mood has changed? Will of the people or subverting the will of the people?

It's like reading the first twenty pages over and over after Brexit was first proposed....

Meanwhile, the government appear to be (badly) showing their hand over their threat to leave without a deal. Namely, their lack of preparation for a hard Brexit in a year's time. Now I very much doubt that they're complete idiots (they wouldn't have reached Cabinet if they were), so what that tell us is that they're convinced that a transition agreement is not only necessary, but that they're reasonably convinced that whatever the final settlement of the Brexit issue, there will be a transitional agreement put in place for a few years. Which is of course, both good and bad (for different reasons depending on your perspective).

Meanwhile, there's been a lot of speculation over Ruth Davidson moving south of the border after 2021. I can't say I'd be too averse to seeing more of her in mainstream politics, There's something about an angry Scottish feminist ex-TA lesbian kickboxer that amuses and appeals to me.

Herzlos wrote:
What about those that can't vote? Should we care about them?

Of course we should. Please take note of the specific language I used: "those who chose not to vote".

However you present the numbers, just over a third of us voted out, just under a third voted in, about a third didn't vote.

Exactly. The Leave number is bigger than the Remain number. Thats how democracy works, the majority vote wins.

I still don't know what you dislike so much about a notional superstate?

Because it will be so vast, and the uppermost echelons of Government will be so remote and detached from the people, that it will be unaccountable to the everyday man. Democracy works best when it is kept small, and power is close to the people and accessible. It does not work in vast empires.

And why you dislike it so much you're happy to watch the world burn.

The world? Hardly.

How do you feel about a 2nd referendum if the feeling I'd the public mood has changed? Will of the people or subverting the will of the people?

If Brexit had been planned and pitched as a 2 Referendum process from the very beginning, to gauge public Opinion on whether to Leave, and then again on the terms of our Leaving, sure. I'd be OK with it.

But thats not how the terms of the Brexit Referendum were presented to us, we were told that the people would decide in a Referendum, and then Cameron would carry out the will of the people. But he lied, and chose to resign instead of honouring his word.


Trying to hold a 2nd Referendum now to reverse Brexit is simply moving the goal posts. Its cheating, for lack of a better word, and its a deeply dishonest and underhanded way of reversing Brexit.

Put it this way: If Remain had won the Referendum, but afterwards the EU used that as an excuse and began pushing hard for complete integration and the forfeiture of our few remaining Opt-Outs and public opinion subsequently turned against the EU and back in favour of Leave...would YOU agree to a 2nd Referendum?

(Thats rhetorical btw, of course you wouldn't).