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The implication of the older age voting brexit by and large, so I assume they're proving a point by saying they *probably* won't be dying any time soon due to age.
Someone posts: "Lets just wait for Brexiteers to die off from old age!"
Every Brexiteer in this thread: "We're not old...you'll be waiting a long time".
You: "What has your age got to do with it?"
Come on mate, this isn't a complicated line of logic to follow.
The implication of the older age voting brexit by and large, so I assume they're proving a point by saying they *probably* won't be dying any time soon due to age.
They don't need to. A couple of percent of the 65+ will skew things in favour of remain. Natural attrition means we've probably already crossed that line.
We know not all brexiteers are old, but the 65+ group was the only one with a majority for leave.
The realists in the EU are starting to flex their muscles and make their feelings known, which can only be good for the UK.
Which realists?
Barnier is tying himself in knots with his contradictions.
Which contradictions?
I understand you see everything as bad for the EU and good for us, but sometimes I need a bit of help to follow that line of though.
For the realists, this quote came from the article.
Anders Vistisen, a Danish Eurosceptic MEP and vice-chair of the EU Parliament's foreign affairs committee, agreed, adding: "The most integral thing is the future relationship. If we are making a bad trade deal for Britain we are also hurting ourselves."
As for contradictions, Barnier talks about deadlock, and then the next day, the EU 27 are talking about a trade deal with Britain. Barnier has to know what's going on, hence my point about contradictions.
Add that to Juncker's madcap point about "28 beers" and you can see the EU are not getting it their own way
I still don't see a contradiction. He hasn't let us move onto trade talks yet and won't until we make progress. He's started establishing a formal EU27 position
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 17:12:35
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And I'd submit that, as evident by this very thread, you don't know what you're talking about.
Really?
In public, Barnier is talking about deadlock.
In private, Tusk is circulating a draft paper to the EU 27, suggesting that free trade talks might start in December...
And yet, we're constantly told that the British negotiating position is all over the shop...
There's no consistency issues. You're missing the condition in your own quote. The discussions will move on when the eu says we've made progress
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: By "making progress", I take it you (and Juncker) mean "Cave in to every monetary demand the EU makes of us".
I and the EU mean (I assume) come up with a satisfactory conclusion to the 3 road blocks set out at the start if negotiations. What team UK need to do was spelled out and agreed on months ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 17:28:37
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: @whirlwind. We, Britain, have been reminded on numerous occasions that we're leaving the 'golf club' and shouldn't be expecting to use the facilities for free when we've left etc etc which is fair enough.
But that works both ways - we're leaving, so why should we be responsible for setting club membership fees?
If I go to a restaurant for a meal, I don't expect to write up my own bill. That is for the management to tell me what I owe them, based on a price they set out before I ordered.
That's not an apt comparison. The EU did provide their costings at the last meeting, which the UK said no to. So the EU asked the UK which things it wanted to keep (or if the costings needed to be revised). The UK didn't because they wanted to play games and try and force the EUs hand so they can hold monetary issues as a ransom tool if the UK don't allow free trade on something (lets say us selling idiot government ministers to EU countries as we have lots of them) - it was hence also the reason for the 'threat' from May just before this round to say that we would go full WTO if needed. However the EU basically told the UK where it can stick it's desire to hold the EU to ransom over monetary issues when talking trade. We also get money from schemes the EU run so it's not as simple as saying how much we are paying into things. For example in my local area there is a regional growth fund that is used to try and develop areas which are generally run down to try and bring forward growth investment and eventually improvement to the locality and the residents. This scheme will run until 2020 regardless of Wrexit simply because that is what is contracted to do. So if we leave the EU will still be funding the scheme and the UK will still be benefiting. The UK is contributing to this (which benefits all EU countries) and hence should continue to do so until 2020.
Looks like Barnier has had the rug pulled from underneath his feet.
London preparing for a no deal scenario has clearly focused some minds in the European capitals.
What I wouldn't give for a Douglas Hurd or even a Robin Cook, to tour the European capitals and exploit some of those cracks, instead of that complete buffoon we have know
So they are starting to come up with a position on trade, in preparation of us moving onto the next phase?
That's certainly good. I'm surprised they hadn't already done that.
It doesn't mean they'll let us talk trade any time soon though. Hopefully this carrot will be enough to get team UK to pull their finger out.
The realists in the EU are starting to flex their muscles and make their feelings known, which can only be good for the UK.
Barnier is tying himself in knots with his contradictions.
Not really. The EU have always had position statements and what they wanted before they actually sat down to talk about things (the same happened with the current set). It is logical that they will want to agree a position before they actually sit down. They are intending to go to the EU parliament in October to advise whether enough progress had been made to start Trade talks. As such they need to be prepared for either decision, that it is likely to be a no just means that they will wait until the next round of talks and so on. The EU like to be prepared and know what to discuss prior to those discussions (which makes sense when you have 27 member states all that need an input). This is unlike the UK governments David Davis approach which is more grunting "us wanz tradez" with no real idea of what they actually want in detail and making things up as they go along.
The implication of the older age voting brexit by and large, so I assume they're proving a point by saying they *probably* won't be dying any time soon due to age.
They don't need to. A couple of percent of the 65+ will skew things in favour of remain. Natural attrition means we've probably already crossed that line.
We know not all brexiteers are old, but the 65+ group was the only one with a majority for leave.
Not quite this quick simply on age profiles. I did some rough calculations previously. Based on current voting ratios (as not every young person supports the EU and not every old person is opposed) and that stays the same then it was between about 7-10 years. The irony being that by the time we have extracted ourselves from the EU the population will want back in again which is also likely to lead to an increasing large number of supportive MPs as well. Of course this doesn't take into account changing views and the swingometer is definitely heading towards being more pro-EU on that one. I think a lot of Wrexiters know this too hence the reason they want to force it through as quickly as possible, damage be damned.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/13 18:12:55
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Someone posts: "Lets just wait for Brexiteers to die off from old age!"
Every Brexiteer in this thread: "We're not old...you'll be waiting a long time".
You: "What has your age got to do with it?"
Come on mate, this isn't a complicated line of logic to follow.
It is, though, because the age of a few individual Brexit voters is entirely irrelevant to the fact that Brexit voters on average are older. You've yet again made a fundamental error of statistics.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
In other news though it's probably not worth worrying about because Boris the Clown is being sent to Russia to talk about global security issues so by the end of it we'll all likely be ash.
I fully expect that he will make some fundamental error and he'll fly back stating that he has successfully started nuclear war between the two countries.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Whirlwind wrote: In other news though it's probably not worth worrying about because Boris the Clown is being sent to Russia to talk about global security issues so by the end of it we'll all likely be ash.
I fully expect that he will make some fundamental error and he'll fly back stating that he has successfully started nuclear war between the two countries.
Don't worry comrade. Mr. Johnson won't be starting nuclear wars. He will only be receiving new instructions regarding his mission to destabilise the decadent West. He is also to receive a reward for his past efforts. Mr. Johnson is a valued agent of the Motherland, you see.
It is, though, because the age of a few individual Brexit voters is entirely irrelevant to the fact that Brexit voters on average are older. You've yet again made a fundamental error of statistics.
It isn't actually age, but rather education levels that are more key (note to those worried about such things - it doesn't mean Wrexiters are stupid). A large fraction of the elderly didn't have great education and left school with little or no qualifications. Now we have vast numbers of people going to University. As such I'd expect that in 20 years or so the elderly will be more pro-EU as we get older. What is open to question is why this is, I suspect that it might not be education per se but rather it allows people to come into contact with people of different cultures and nationalities and there is evidence that shows that prejudices are higher in areas where social mix is low (whereas especially at Uni there is a high degree of mixing and increasing at the schooling level). For example this profile of voting for the far right vs areas of high immigration in the German elections was highest in areas with low immigration. The fear of the 'invader' can be strong in humans and people to vote this way, but in those areas where social mixing was high everyone just realised everyone else was just another person and hence that fear evaporates.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The implication of the older age voting brexit by and large, so I assume they're proving a point by saying they *probably* won't be dying any time soon due to age.
They don't need to. A couple of percent of the 65+ will skew things in favour of remain. Natural attrition means we've probably already crossed that line.
We know not all brexiteers are old, but the 65+ group was the only one with a majority for leave.
The realists in the EU are starting to flex their muscles and make their feelings known, which can only be good for the UK.
Which realists?
Barnier is tying himself in knots with his contradictions.
Which contradictions?
I understand you see everything as bad for the EU and good for us, but sometimes I need a bit of help to follow that line of though.
For the realists, this quote came from the article.
Anders Vistisen, a Danish Eurosceptic MEP and vice-chair of the EU Parliament's foreign affairs committee, agreed, adding: "The most integral thing is the future relationship. If we are making a bad trade deal for Britain we are also hurting ourselves."
As for contradictions, Barnier talks about deadlock, and then the next day, the EU 27 are talking about a trade deal with Britain. Barnier has to know what's going on, hence my point about contradictions.
Add that to Juncker's madcap point about "28 beers" and you can see the EU are not getting it their own way
I still don't see a contradiction. He hasn't let us move onto trade talks yet and won't until we make progress. He's started establishing a formal EU27 position
It's called being prepared. I know the UK public is currently being conditioned to think improvisation is the way international deals are done but, as Brexit supporters are fond of reminding us, it takes a while to set a common position.
Whirlwind wrote: , I suspect that it might not be education per se but rather it allows people to come into contact with people of different cultures and nationalities and there is evidence that shows that prejudices are higher in areas where social mix is low (whereas especially at Uni there is a high degree of mixing and increasing at the schooling level).
I'm not sure that going to University does necessarily give access to a greater cultural mix, as it depends quite heavily on where you go. I've hung around four universities with undergrads for extended periods of time (King's College, Warwick, Royal Holloway, and Kent). I've also spent lesser periods of time visiting the Universities of Exeter, Durham, Glasgow, and Cambridge, and observed much the same thing there. I've noticed that quite frankly, normally the undergrad ethnic mix tends to be....well, let's just say 'lacking in diversity'. There's usually a small sprinkling of European students (to a higher degree at Postgrad), and most have large contingents of Chinese students, but the latter tend to keep to themselves and only interact with each other (Heck, when I was doing undergrad there, Kent even used to house them separately). The vast bulk of the student population otherwise tend to be middle class white British kids.
My girlfriend recently started a postgrad at City University though (the one that literally just joined the UoL), and having spent a few days in their buildings at Northampton Square as a result, the difference between that place and the higher ranked institutes with their own campuses is like night and day. So many foreign students, different languages, headscarves, different skin colours, and so forth, the likes of which I've never seen at the other places. It's certainly made me reappraise the efficacy of the university institution as a social and class mobility tool.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Universities which tend to be filled with the kids who most likely voted to Remain (middle class liberal coffee drinking types) also would appear to be the least culturally diverse. So I'm not entirely sure I'd agree with the premise that it's the University environment which results in which way they vote or think. Frankly, given that 50% of young people go to University today, I'm not convinced education level really has any causative relationship with which way people voted. I think it's more of a general correlation; and I'd hesitate to try and hypothesize any relationship beyond that. Certainly, I've seen too many undergrads who can barely string a sentence together walk out with 2:1's to think that most of them are really any smarter or worldly when they leave than if they never showed up.
If I was to point to anything as a tool for introducing people to different cultures and concepts which wasn't available for older generations, it would be the internet. The web has given access to so much information for anyone who wants it, and permits conversations with people of so many other countries (as just being here on Dakka demonstrates) that I would imagine it has a natural effect of breaking down national borders.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/13 19:43:22
Ketara wrote: . I think it's more of a general correlation; and I'd hesitate to try and hypothesize any relationship beyond that. Certainly, I've seen too many undergrads who can barely string a sentence together walk out with 2:1's to think that most of them are really any smarter or worldly when they leave than if they never showed up.
I wouldn't say smarter...however the correlation is too significant and transposes across age ranges as well (so even older better educated people are more likely to vote Remain than Leave etc) so there is a statistical significant result going on. The question is why and I'm a scientist so I want to know why? It might be multiple factors but it would be interested to know. For example if one effect is due to higher cultural mixing then perhaps Universities can be a better example of how to mix the populace as a whole and get everyone to integrate better.
If I was to point to anything as a tool for introducing people to different cultures and concepts which wasn't available for older generations, it would be the internet. The web has given access to so much information for anyone who wants it, and permits conversations with people of so many other countries (as just being here on Dakka demonstrates) that I would imagine it has a natural effect of breaking down national borders.
Yes this could indeed be true, more study needed, but then are educated people more likely to use the internet and if not why should that then have an effect on peoples voting preferences by education level?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: At least if we refuse to pay the "divorce" bill, then Farage and his wife won't get their EU pensions, so some good will have come of it all.
Ah ha. Suddenly I've realised why there is deadlock in the talks. Neither side wants to pay for Farage's pension... It's all so obvious now!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 21:39:14
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I don't think it's a case that more educated people believe in the EU than less educated people.
I think it's more a case of less educated people feel let down by the EU than the more educated ones.
I know a lot of guys who do not have amazing educations but are excellent manual workers, builders chippies and brickies etc. Like hundreds of people a day (it's my job serving these guys after all.) and a lot of them dislike the EU for flooding the market with cheap labour. It doesn't mean that the EU has done that, but they still don't like it.
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welshhoppo wrote: I don't think it's a case that more educated people believe in the EU than less educated people.
I think it's more a case of less educated people feel let down by the EU than the more educated ones.
I know a lot of guys who do not have amazing educations but are excellent manual workers, builders chippies and brickies etc. Like hundreds of people a day (it's my job serving these guys after all.) and a lot of them dislike the EU for flooding the market with cheap labour. It doesn't mean that the EU has done that, but they still don't like it.
There definitely is a point in that, the same pattern is visible here in the Netherlands. Globalisation and labour migration hit less educated people much harder than highly educated people, as they are often easily set aside in favour of cheaper foreign labour. Highly educated people are much harder to replace in that way, since most labour migrants do not have the needed education.
Globalisation and labour migration hit less educated people much harder than highly educated people, as they are often easily set aside in favour of cheaper foreign labour. Highly educated people are much harder to replace in that way, since most labour migrants do not have the needed education.
I think it's more that academically well educated people have always found it easy to move for work whereas it's a relatively recent thing in fields needing less formal education so there hasn't been the same sudden burst. Not many academics complaining that 1 in 10 jobs is now held by a foreigner, because 5/10 have been for decades (numbers picked out the air but you take my meaning).
Edit: I don't think it's about diversity at universities: my own experience is similar to Ketara's. My university is overwhelmingly white Brits with pretty sizeable groups of Chinese students in certain subjects. I do teach a lot of non-Brits in my own department, but, depressingly, I can count the numbers of non-white and non-european students I've taught in three years on one hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Corbyn is going to talk about democratizing the economy, the rise of automation, and the digital age reforming work today. Prepare yourselves for 'meaningless buzzwords' accusations from the Tories and Lib Dems again.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/14 09:21:14
welshhoppo wrote: I don't think it's a case that more educated people believe in the EU than less educated people.
I think it's more a case of less educated people feel let down by the EU than the more educated ones.
I know a lot of guys who do not have amazing educations but are excellent manual workers, builders chippies and brickies etc. Like hundreds of people a day (it's my job serving these guys after all.) and a lot of them dislike the EU for flooding the market with cheap labour. It doesn't mean that the EU has done that, but they still don't like it.
There definitely is a point in that, the same pattern is visible here in the Netherlands. Globalisation and labour migration hit less educated people much harder than highly educated people, as they are often easily set aside in favour of cheaper foreign labour. Highly educated people are much harder to replace in that way, since most labour migrants do not have the needed education.
Still the first ones to leave once you put up the not welcome sign are the educated ones.
Number of NHS nurses falls for first time since 2013 after 'significant drop' in EU staff
Significant reduction in EU nurses joining UK register since Brexit referendum and changes to language testing requirements are key reasons for the fall, according to the King's Fund
Future War Cultist wrote: So first we were called a Cult (by a mod) without hiderance and now we're being called idiots. It'll be interesting to see if any action is taken.
We had this discussion, the mod did not call you personally as part of a cult. Instead he called Brexit a cult because regardless of the facts and events that were happening, that in some areas, there is an unwavering view that it will be 'better in the end' without any evidence to support this (and when evidence comes against Wrexit it is either dismissed or because others didn't make the most of the situation). As we previously discussed this has the hallmarks of cult type behaviour where a minority at the top exploit a circumstance to benefit themselves (or their own ego). I didn't read the other comment, but it's been moderated so I accept that judgement. There is a difference between making an observation over the whole of society compared to making a personal attack.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
welshhoppo wrote: I don't think it's a case that more educated people believe in the EU than less educated people.
I think it's more a case of less educated people feel let down by the EU than the more educated ones.
I know a lot of guys who do not have amazing educations but are excellent manual workers, builders chippies and brickies etc. Like hundreds of people a day (it's my job serving these guys after all.) and a lot of them dislike the EU for flooding the market with cheap labour. It doesn't mean that the EU has done that, but they still don't like it.
There definitely is a point in that, the same pattern is visible here in the Netherlands. Globalisation and labour migration hit less educated people much harder than highly educated people, as they are often easily set aside in favour of cheaper foreign labour. Highly educated people are much harder to replace in that way, since most labour migrants do not have the needed education.
Still the first ones to leave once you put up the not welcome sign are the educated ones.
Number of NHS nurses falls for first time since 2013 after 'significant drop' in EU staff
Significant reduction in EU nurses joining UK register since Brexit referendum and changes to language testing requirements are key reasons for the fall, according to the King's Fund
Again, I think this is along the lines of the poor being more affected.
A richer family can pick up and move elsewhere, a poorer family cannot. Harder job prospects in one area? That's okay, we have the money to move and try again somewhere else.
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Future War Cultist wrote: So first we were called a Cult (by a mod) without hiderance and now we're being called idiots. It'll be interesting to see if any action is taken.
We had this discussion, the mod did not call you personally as part of a cult. Instead he called Brexit a cult because regardless of the facts and events that were happening, that in some areas, there is an unwavering view that it will be 'better in the end' without any evidence to support this (and when evidence comes against Wrexit it is either dismissed or because others didn't make the most of the situation). As we previously discussed this has the hallmarks of cult type behaviour where a minority at the top exploit a circumstance to benefit themselves (or their own ego). I didn't read the other comment, but it's been moderated so I accept that judgement. There is a difference between making an observation over the whole of society compared to making a personal attack.
By calling Brexit a 'cult', you are de-facto calling people in this thread who support Brexit cult followers.
No matter how accurate, I don't think this sort of rhetoric is conducive to a civil discussion so please refrain from it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/14 13:25:14
welshhoppo wrote: I don't think it's a case that more educated people believe in the EU than less educated people.
I think it's more a case of less educated people feel let down by the EU than the more educated ones.
I know a lot of guys who do not have amazing educations but are excellent manual workers, builders chippies and brickies etc. Like hundreds of people a day (it's my job serving these guys after all.) and a lot of them dislike the EU for flooding the market with cheap labour. It doesn't mean that the EU has done that, but they still don't like it.
This is likely to be another factor. However the blame in this case is misplaced. The EU provides opportunities (free movement etc) that people don't (or can't) because of social mobility issues etc is not an EU issue but rather a UK issue. However as a counter point to this argument we do know that the older you get the more likely to support leaving. At the same time the older generation are known to be in a better position than the younger generations. As such it can be argued that older generation have been the greater beneficiaries of being in the EU whereas the younger generation which is now struggling more and more because of house prices, inflation and so on. However the younger the population the more supportive of the EU they are. Therefore if cheap labour was the driving concern, where the younger the population, who are more vulnerable to cheaper labour, should be more opposed to the EU than the older generation. Yet we do not see this.
By calling Brexit a 'cult', you are de-facto calling people in this thread who support Brexit cult followers.
No matter how accurate, I don't think this sort of rhetoric is conducive to a civil discussion so please refrain from it.
I'd disagree. You can be for or against Wrexit but because of the evidence you have seen. That doesn't make you or anyone else a cult follower. A cause can however be acting as a whole or considered as a cult where facts start to lose any relevance and nothing can be said that detracts from that over-arching aim which those at the head want.
As another example I believe given the evidence to hand that unless the human race alters the way it exploits the resources of the world and the way it acts towards one another then we are likely to end up poisoning, 'starving' or otherwise killing each other because that is what happens when any animal species becomes too large for the environment to support. I am willing to accept that should new evidence come to light that shows we are changing our ways then we could perhaps avoid these issues. A doomsday cult believes a similar thing...but...will not accept any evidence that it is anything but inevitable. Hence I partially have similar views to a doomsday cult but it doesn't make me a cult follower. The semantics and context of the circumstances are important.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/14 13:39:24
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
