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There is a lot of potential for various energy schemes, but they need to be planned and executed efficiently and effectively. The UK government often presents a good example of how not to do it.
The Hinkley reactor for instance, was commissioned very late, is already over budget, and will provide electricity at something like triple the market rate by the time it is finished, yet tax payers are locked into a 30 year contract.
Going to the other end of the scale, the grants for lagging your loft and similar individual household improvement projects have not been taken up because the initial cost to the householder is too high compared to the long term benefit.
We need to look at power generation and storage at macro and micro levels, plus the National Grid, and connections with the continent as we should be able to export and import power easily.. (There is a new cable link to Denmark coming.) We also need to improve energy efficiency wherever possible.
The best way out of this seems to be Irish reunification. Obviously there would be one or 2 groups not keen on the idea.
Aye! Ireland should be unified under British control, and all those damnable rebels should leave the country.
That's what you meant, right?
Well either way really.
I presume we will fudge our way to something eventually that allows a deal on Brexit to proceed, too much at stake not to - but there still doesn't seem to be any solution that doesn't at least raise the risk of Irish politics returning to discussion by attaching things to cars.
I have sudden, glorious visions of Mad Max, but with green hills instead of deserts. Immortan Foster and her War (orange) Boys. They've already got big enough drums.
But it seems to be going a bit far when various politicians seem to be thinking "well, it might cause a civil war in the country next door, but that's a small price to pay"
I try and tread carefully on the subject of Ireland, because I like the North and the Republic, and the Irish are a good bunch of lads, and I don't want to upset people,
but the Irish issue is a two way street IMO and not just limited to the Irish border.
Whatever your views of Brexit, be you leave or Remain, voter, in England, especially the Tory shires, might start thinking this:
We have voted in a free and fair referendum, and we democratically voted to peacefully leave the EU.
And now people in another sovereign nation are saying we could end up with trouble in Ireland because of that...
All it takes is for a Farage to come along and say - that's emotional blackmail, and we get a political backlash from the Home Counties Shires
The DUP need to tread carefully, because it's obvious to anybody that the hard core Brexit side value Brexit over Northern Ireland any day of the week.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I'm glad the government seems to have come around the idea of a business strategy, because boosting productivity, and boosting other UK regions should be a national priority.
Just don't ask me how it will be done
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
I agree with most of this, but labour is something I'm not sure about for the future, because who knows what will happen with robots and AI making stuff?
Those robots ain't going to program and repair themselves. Not to mention design the stuff they will be building.
We have voted in a free and fair referendum, and we democratically voted to peacefully leave the EU.
And now people in another sovereign nation are saying we could end up with trouble in Ireland because of that...
Firstly, we democratically voted on precisely nothing. The question was meaningless, the result was inconclusive and the lies were rampant. But lets not waste another few pages on that.
Secondly, we voted to leave a free movement/trade block which overlaps a region which has had a history of border related problems. The EU is happy for there to be no border - they aren't the ones who want to do the split or add the restrictions.
So there's no way you can blame the EU for this - It was painfully clear for all before the referendum that leaving would cause border issues. We already know what the deal is with a border inside/outside the EU - it's a hard border.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 12:53:36
I'm glad the government seems to have come around the idea of a business strategy, because boosting productivity, and boosting other UK regions should be a national priority.
Just don't ask me how it will be done
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
I agree with most of this, but labour is something I'm not sure about for the future, because who knows what will happen with robots and AI making stuff?
Those robots ain't going to program and repair themselves. Not to mention design the stuff they will be building.
The numbers of highly skilled professional jobs programming, repairing and designing will be dwarfed by the number of unskilled/low skilled jobs that will be lost thanks to those Robots and AI.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Free? Absolutely, no arguments from me there. Fair? Nope. Not for either side. The clusterfeth started at the design stage.
You and I often disagree on facts and sources.
Fair enough, I respect that, but what is beyond dispute is this:
I'm obviously anti-EU, and yeah, I attack them often, but I don't hate the EU and I don't consider them to be the root of all evil. I'm glad we're leaving, but I'm not a fanatic in that regard.
There is however, a hard-core, fanatical, anti-EU group, with powerful allies in business and media. And there is no way on God's earth that their dream of Singapore on the Thames is going to be derailed by the Irish border issue.
We have voted in a free and fair referendum, and we democratically voted to peacefully leave the EU.
And now people in another sovereign nation are saying we could end up with trouble in Ireland because of that...
Firstly, we democratically voted on precisely nothing. The question was meaningless, the result was inconclusive and the lies were rampant. But lets not waste another few pages on that.
Secondly, we voted to leave a free movement/trade block which overlaps a region which has had a history of border related problems. The EU is happy for there to be no border - they aren't the ones who want to do the split or add the restrictions.
So there's no way you can blame the EU for this - It was painfully clear for all before the referendum that leaving would cause border issues. We already know what the deal is with a border inside/outside the EU - it's a hard border.
But other people don't debate as peacefully as we do on dakka, and they way not see it that way.
Like I say, there will be sections of society in England wondering why their vote to leave the EU could be potentially be derailed by events across the Irish sea.
I fully appreciate the Irish history issue here, but this is not the days of Cromwell or Elizabethan England
No offence to Irish dakka members, but in my experience of living and working in England for years, your average Englishman couldn't give two hoots if Northern Ireland stays or goes, or Scotland either for that matter, so they might start getting irritated at their Leave vote being potentially derailed by Ireland.
The biggest threat to Northern Ireland's unionists has always been English indifference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 13:02:38
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
There certainly is a fanatical anti-EU group. They are the ones pushing the UK to Hard Brexit, which is not what the referendum requires, advocates or authorises.
They've obviously got their hooks into May somehow, since she keeps reiterating the No Customs Union, No EFTA membership rule she made up after getting selected as PM.
My suspicion is that some of these people are high net worth individuals who are alarmed by the EU's growing clampdown on tax havens and want to get the UK out before their off-shore money bags get raided.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I try and tread carefully on the subject of Ireland, because I like the North and the Republic, and the Irish are a good bunch of lads, and I don't want to upset people,
but the Irish issue is a two way street IMO and not just limited to the Irish border.
Whatever your views of Brexit, be you leave or Remain, voter, in England, especially the Tory shires, might start thinking this:
We have voted in a free and fair referendum, and we democratically voted to peacefully leave the EU.
And now people in another sovereign nation are saying we could end up with trouble in Ireland because of that...
All it takes is for a Farage to come along and say - that's emotional blackmail, and we get a political backlash from the Home Counties Shires
The DUP need to tread carefully, because it's obvious to anybody that the hard core Brexit side value Brexit over Northern Ireland any day of the week.
But shouldn't people freely and fairly consider issues which are quite complex rather than just their own local interest?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 13:09:03
I'm glad the government seems to have come around the idea of a business strategy, because boosting productivity, and boosting other UK regions should be a national priority.
Just don't ask me how it will be done
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
I agree with most of this, but labour is something I'm not sure about for the future, because who knows what will happen with robots and AI making stuff?
Those robots ain't going to program and repair themselves. Not to mention design the stuff they will be building.
The numbers of highly skilled professional jobs programming, repairing and designing will be dwarfed by the number of unskilled/low skilled jobs that will be lost thanks to those Robots and AI.
But their productivity will raise through the roof, which is what we were talking about.
If a robot manages to put the equivalent of 100 man-hours per week, and a single technician can keep 10 of those robots working make the math (let's exclude the very relevant capital costs for a second).
But of course in the real world the capital cost is what will prevent robots from just being put into everything, there are some jobs where it just will not make economic sense to sub a man for a machine. Not in 50 years time at least.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I try and tread carefully on the subject of Ireland, because I like the North and the Republic, and the Irish are a good bunch of lads, and I don't want to upset people,
but the Irish issue is a two way street IMO and not just limited to the Irish border.
Whatever your views of Brexit, be you leave or Remain, voter, in England, especially the Tory shires, might start thinking this:
We have voted in a free and fair referendum, and we democratically voted to peacefully leave the EU.
And now people in another sovereign nation are saying we could end up with trouble in Ireland because of that...
All it takes is for a Farage to come along and say - that's emotional blackmail, and we get a political backlash from the Home Counties Shires
The DUP need to tread carefully, because it's obvious to anybody that the hard core Brexit side value Brexit over Northern Ireland any day of the week.
But shouldn't people freely and fairly consider issues which are quite complex rather than their own local seeks interest?
Hand on heart I can honestly say that Northern Ireland was the last thing I was thinking about in June 2016 when I voted to leave.
Again, no offence to Irish dakka members, but
If Northern Ireland stays in the UK = me shrugging my shoulders
If Northern Ireland reunifies with the Republic = me shrugging my shoulders.
I suspect there are a lot of people with that level of indifference, and as I said, indifference from the rest of the UK is a deadly threat to Northern Ireland's Unionists...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I'm glad the government seems to have come around the idea of a business strategy, because boosting productivity, and boosting other UK regions should be a national priority.
Just don't ask me how it will be done
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
I agree with most of this, but labour is something I'm not sure about for the future, because who knows what will happen with robots and AI making stuff?
Those robots ain't going to program and repair themselves. Not to mention design the stuff they will be building.
The numbers of highly skilled professional jobs programming, repairing and designing will be dwarfed by the number of unskilled/low skilled jobs that will be lost thanks to those Robots and AI.
But their productivity will raise through the roof, which is what we were talking about.
If a robot manages to put the equivalent of 100 man-hours per week, and a single technician can keep 10 of those robots working make the math (let's exclude the very relevant capital costs for a second).
But of course in the real world the capital cost is what will prevent robots from just being put into everything, there are some jobs where it just will not make economic sense to sub a man for a machine. Not in 50 years time at least.
Productivity you say? Well hell, I'm sure that will be a great consolation to all the unskilled and low skilled workers who are now unemployed.
Hand on heart I can honestly say that Northern Ireland was the last thing I was thinking about in June 2016 when I voted to leave.
Would you have voted differently had you not been ignorant to the issue?
Or do you just mean you were indifferent to it then and are just as indefferent to it now?
I'm obviously anti-EU, and yeah, I attack them often, but I don't hate the EU and I don't consider them to be the root of all evil. I'm glad we're leaving, but I'm not a fanatic in that regard.
Sorry, but you're almost the definition of an anti-EU fanatic - you blame them for everything, even things they aren't responsible for, and want to leave immediately, in the hardest way possible, regardless of the damage.
But other people don't debate as peacefully as we do on dakka, and they way not see it that way.
The biggest threat to Northern Ireland's unionists has always been English indifference.
Agreed on both counts. We're pretty spoiled here with the level of debate, and ignorance is responsible for a lot of this mess.
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Kilkrazy wrote: My suspicion is that some of these people are high net worth individuals who are alarmed by the EU's growing clampdown on tax havens and want to get the UK out before their off-shore money bags get raided.
Cameron called for the referendum a few days after EU plans to clamp down hard on tax evasion, so he's been heavily involved in whatevers going on as well.
I wonder how much tax the Cameron or May families have evaded that they don't want to pay back? It could be as simple as that.
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Productivity you say? Well hell, I'm sure that will be a great consolation to all the unskilled and low skilled workers who are now unemployed.
To be fair the same claim has been made with every other technical revolution - the printing press, the cotton mills, industrial machinery, and so on. What happens in the unskilled jobs move to other fields. What those fields will be has yet to be discovered.
The other aspect is that if no-one has any jobs or money, then there's nothing for the robots to make, and no money to pay for them, so they stop existing and need people to replace them (in a permanent cycle).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/27 13:31:23
Yes, we've had a long discussion about this issue of the robot reveolution in the New Economy thread.
However, the actual problem that the UK faces at the moment is that rather than investing in robots or training, companies have been employing more low-skilled, low-paid and insecure workers.
I'm glad the government seems to have come around the idea of a business strategy, because boosting productivity, and boosting other UK regions should be a national priority.
Just don't ask me how it will be done
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
I agree with most of this, but labour is something I'm not sure about for the future, because who knows what will happen with robots and AI making stuff?
Those robots ain't going to program and repair themselves. Not to mention design the stuff they will be building.
The numbers of highly skilled professional jobs programming, repairing and designing will be dwarfed by the number of unskilled/low skilled jobs that will be lost thanks to those Robots and AI.
But their productivity will raise through the roof, which is what we were talking about.
If a robot manages to put the equivalent of 100 man-hours per week, and a single technician can keep 10 of those robots working make the math (let's exclude the very relevant capital costs for a second).
But of course in the real world the capital cost is what will prevent robots from just being put into everything, there are some jobs where it just will not make economic sense to sub a man for a machine. Not in 50 years time at least.
Productivity you say? Well hell, I'm sure that will be a great consolation to all the unskilled and low skilled workers who are now unemployed.
All of the history we have shows that automation has a damaging short term impact, but long term increases wages, employment levels and living standards. The last three industrial revolutions (The First Industrial Revolution used water and steam power to mechanize production. The Second used electric power to create mass production. The Third used electronics and information technology to automate production.) have done just that. Short term we have had job losses, but over the long term we have ended up in a better position. Every time the problem has been made worse by luddites who refuse to change. I don't believe we will see mass unemployment with more automation. We will see better paid, more skilled jobs. What will damage us is if the governments of the world allow big business to artificially control the tools. In the last three revolutions we have seen businesses come and go, but in the end the barriers to entry have gone up and up, so pooled resources in the hands of the few. This time it looks less likely to happen, but not if governments allow things like net neutrality to be taken away.
Kilkrazy wrote: Yes, we've had a long discussion about this issue of the robot reveolution in the New Economy thread.
However, the actual problem that the UK faces at the moment is that rather than investing in robots or training, companies have been employing more low-skilled, low-paid and insecure workers.
It is not just low-skilled, low-paid workers that suffer. Right the way across the spectrum, to all but the highest levels, we see companies across the UK refusing to train anyone. Time and again you see SMEs complaining about school and university leavers not being ready for the workplace. You see companies not replacing old equipment. You see them just expecting people to work more hours.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 13:45:35
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Saw this just now and I think its very relevant to the discussion about automation and skilled jobs replacing unskilled jobs.
Basically his premise is that a certain proportion of the population will never be suited to skilled jobs. So what are they supposed to do? Its not as simple as just asserting that they will all be trained to do the new skilled jobs (of which there aren't enough to go around anyway). Many of them aren't suited to higher skilled roles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 15:12:07
I would disagree with him and with the idea that there are not enough to go around. Not entirely, but in general. There are some people that are not able, through disability, not able cognitively to do anything but low skilled jobs. However I would argue these are few, and at the moment many people are underemployed, and we have a long way to go until we are at risk of there being an employment issue due to not having enough people to do the jobs who are capable. There will always be some unskilled jobs, but more automation and AI will increase the number of skilled jobs.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Saw this just now and I think its very relevant to the discussion about automation and skilled jobs replacing unskilled jobs.
Basically his premise is that a certain proportion of the population will never be suited to skilled jobs. So what are they supposed to do? Its not as simple as just asserting that they will all be trained to do the new skilled jobs (of which there aren't enough to go around anyway). Many of them aren't suited to higher skilled roles.
Technology also creates new low-skilled jobs.
A few decades ago just about every company dealing with actual physical goods had a number of people working as warehouse hands. Nowadays a small company will have a couple of people driving a forklift or electric pallet jacks while bigger companies will have more automated processed but still at the end of the day there will be actual people doing things (think those hangar-like Amazon logistics hubs)
Technology also allows these lower skill jobs to benefit from the multiplication factor or technology.
IIRC you are or were at some point employed driving a forklift right? Think for a while what the job was like 30 or 50 years ago. You are now easily doing the work of multiple men, with relatively minor training.
But also very dangerous, although I'm not sure if loading and unloading lorries could be done automatically.
But then if Musky gets his hands in it, we'll all be out of a job. Even retail, the good old place where low skilled smucks (like me) are hiring fewer and fewer people.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
There was a discussion about retail on Radio 4 this morning.
The expert made the point that Black Friday seems to have failed, and just concentrates the "golden quarter" spending into a smaller time compass. Consumers have got used to the constant sales. They shop online because people don't like the hassle of going to shops -- the crowds, noise, difficulty and expense of parking.
The way for the "high street" to fight back against this is to play to its strengths, which are product knowledge and customer service. As an ex-retail manager I totally agree with this. It requires people skills and training, but it pays off in a better customer experience which makes the shop a fun and interesting place to visit.
The way for the "high street" to fight back against this is to play to its strengths, which are product knowledge and customer service. As an ex-retail manager I totally agree with this. It requires people skills and training, but it pays off in a better customer experience which makes the shop a fun and interesting place to visit.
Absolutely agree. I'm generally more than happy to buy anything and everything online, but if I'm buying AV stuff I will go out of my way to go to Richer Sounds. Everyone I ever deal with there is at least knowledgeable in their field if not a genuine expert, and their customer service and extended warranties are excellent.
I also happen to work for a large cosmetics company; and the training our counter staff go through, and the product knowledge they have at their fingertips, is insane. My wife always struggled to buy foundation - I took her to one of our counters, the girl there looked at her for literally half a second, said 'try this one' and it was perfect.
That's what the in-store retail experience needs to be like, but it costs money to get there so it doesn't often happen...
Personally I'd much rather buy stuff in store unless the price/convenience differential is too high. That said, we didn't buy anything in Black Friday that we weren't planning on getting anyway - some things were delayed and some brought forward.
Realistically, we're always going to have human customer service/facing jobs - waiters, cashiers, retail staff, contact centres, nurses, and so on. It's only really manufacturing and some stuff like driving and cleaning that'll be automated away.
I'll tell you: education, investment, labour mobility and reducing trade barriers.
Those are the tried and tested avenues to increasing productivity. There aren't many shortcuts really.
So pretty much the opposite of what the Tories are doing then. The first because they fail to get the right teachers because they don't want to pay more and the last three will all be worse because of Wrexit which the Tories currently seem to be aspiring to.. Maybe they should change the new industrial strategy abstract to "Wrecking the UK one step at a time"
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Herzlos wrote: Personally I'd much rather buy stuff in store unless the price/convenience differential is too high. That said, we didn't buy anything in Black Friday that we weren't planning on getting anyway - some things were delayed and some brought forward.
Just don't go to Leicester then on the Weekends/evenings before Xmas then. It is simply hell. I buy everything online because I simply cannot be dealing with that hell.
Realistically, we're always going to have human customer service/facing jobs - waiters, cashiers, retail staff, contact centres, nurses, and so on. It's only really manufacturing and some stuff like driving and cleaning that'll be automated away.
Are we sure though? We all already have supermarkets using self service desks, fuel stations with pay at the pump. Plenty of customer actioned phone calls are now dealt with through automated systems (the human part being the annoying cold callers). As the population gets larger things will need to become more streamlined simply to manage the numbers (which is a big reason to have self driving cars). The real question is whether this revolution will automate the simpler jobs (and even the more advanced ones) which previous revolutions have not been able to achieve.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/27 19:01:43
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Herzlos wrote: Personally I'd much rather buy stuff in store unless the price/convenience differential is too high. That said, we didn't buy anything in Black Friday that we weren't planning on getting anyway - some things were delayed and some brought forward.
Realistically, we're always going to have human customer service/facing jobs - waiters, cashiers, retail staff, contact centres, nurses, and so on. It's only really manufacturing and some stuff like driving and cleaning that'll be automated away.
I disagree. I have already seen robot waiters in Yo Sushi, self-ordering and payment systems in various Japanese eateries in Japan, and self-checkout systems in most UK supermarkets (Waitrose, Co-op, Sainsburies and Tesco.
From my OUP ELT experience I can say that AI systems for human language interaction are getting better and better within the relatively restricted area of specialism that a broadband provider for instance needs to cater.
These are all jobs that will increasingly easily be automated away, at the lower end. There will always be jobs at the higher end (posh restaurants, Harrods, and humans to handle the difficult cases in call centres.)
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Herzlos wrote: And all of those automated interactions are a serious source of frustration. People usually avoid them where they can.
That's true, so far, but on the one hand you can't avoid them. On the other hand they are going to get better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/27 20:34:17
You're right - for some smaller specialist areas robots will be able to take over human jobs satisfactorially (I've ordered sushi from a terminal as well), for others the humans will have no choice. But like we currently have insurance companies and banks advertising "UK call centres" as a feature, some will advertise "human call centres" etc as a feature.
I'm not sure how long they'll take to catch up technologically - the speech recognition in my 6 year old (so 12 year old tech) car is still awful, I usually give up on automated call centres. Most of the low end stuff is doing it via the cloud too, so I wonder if there will be privacy implications later about having all of your words transmitted to google to process.
There are plenty of things robots will be able to do - change tyres, collect bins, warehousing, brick laying, plastering, grounds keeping, road repairs and so on.
Just don't go to Leicester then on the Weekends/evenings before Xmas then. It is simply hell. I buy everything online because I simply cannot be dealing with that hell.
We just finished our Christmas shopping today. Feth going anywhere near a city centre on a December weekend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tories announce a benefits freeze 21 minutes after the Royal Wedding announcement. It's quite a day to bury bad news; I wonder what else they'll sneak out?
No increase in benefits for anyone that doesn't have disability related costs as a factor. With 3% inflation that's quite a real-terms cut. Pensions unaffected with a 3% rise.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/27 21:06:05
Herzlos wrote: And all of those automated interactions are a serious source of frustration. People usually avoid them where they can.
I don’t. I use self service and pay at pump when i can. Automated phone systems are only annoying when poorly designed. I prefer to avoid talking to people in supermarkets if I can and would rather get petrol over and done with as fast as I can.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
