Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...Hand on heart I can honestly say that Northern Ireland was the last thing I was thinking about in June 2016 when I voted to leave.

Again, no offence to Irish dakka members, but

If Northern Ireland stays in the UK = me shrugging my shoulders

If Northern Ireland reunifies with the Republic = me shrugging my shoulders.

I suspect there are a lot of people with that level of indifference, and as I said, indifference from the rest of the UK is a deadly threat to Northern Ireland's Unionists...

 Darkjim wrote:
Yes, this what Brexit is all about, restoring the primacy of Parliament so our elected leaders can completely ignore it.

As with regaining control of our borders, which Brexit is clearly worth, except NI, where we absolutely will not take control of out borders, and if Ireland insist on doing so then they have to pay for it, said googly-eyed nutter Kate Hoey yesterday.

YK Sinha, India’s High Commissioner to the UK, warned that after Brexit it may take up to a decade for the two countries to negotiate a free trade deal and the “freer movement of people and professionals” would be a crucial component of it.

jouso wrote:

 Darkjim wrote:
Yes, this what Brexit is all about, restoring the primacy of Parliament so our elected leaders can completely ignore it.

As with regaining control of our borders, which Brexit is clearly worth, except NI, where we absolutely will not take control of out borders, and if Ireland insist on doing so then they have to pay for it, said googly-eyed nutter Kate Hoey yesterday.

Or unless someone (like India) asks for it as part of a trade package.

Brexit: Britain should accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal, senior Indian diplomat warns
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-britain-india-immigrants-accept-more-free-trade-deal-diplomat-warning-yk-sinha-a8073516.html

YK Sinha, India’s High Commissioner to the UK, warned that after Brexit it may take up to a decade for the two countries to negotiate a free trade deal and the “freer movement of people and professionals” would be a crucial component of it.

 r_squared wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...Hand on heart I can honestly say that Northern Ireland was the last thing I was thinking about in June 2016 when I voted to leave.

Again, no offence to Irish dakka members, but

If Northern Ireland stays in the UK = me shrugging my shoulders

If Northern Ireland reunifies with the Republic = me shrugging my shoulders.

I suspect there are a lot of people with that level of indifference, and as I said, indifference from the rest of the UK is a deadly threat to Northern Ireland's Unionists...

And that is why referenda should not be used to get direction for enormous, state changing decisions. You, and the overwhelming majority of people like you, did not even care about one of the most fundementaly important parts of the question. Not only uneducated about it, but completely indifferent to the implications.

It is why we have a Parliamentary democracy, and why this "decision", should be thrown out altogether.

 Darkjim wrote:
Yes, this what Brexit is all about, restoring the primacy of Parliament so our elected leaders can completely ignore it.

As with regaining control of our borders, which Brexit is clearly worth, except NI, where we absolutely will not take control of out borders, and if Ireland insist on doing so then they have to pay for it, said googly-eyed nutter Kate Hoey yesterday.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Another example of parliamentary democracy inaction -- Davis having finally sent the "dubious dossiers" of Brexit related analyis to the select committee for Brext, has redacted large amounts of information on the grounds it would be confidential.

The committee are very angry, and there are rumblings of Davis and the government being in contempt of parliament.

Even Rees-Mogg is annoyed. He has pointed out that the government should not be allowed to get away with misleading or ignoring parliament. "Everyone is in opposition eventually." He said the dossier situation is a constitutional crisis.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are several responses to your points.

The first is that the status of the Irish border concerns the Norther Irish as well as Eire.

The second is that the UK is supposed to be seeking a friendly, co-operative, mutually beneficial post-Brexit situation with the EU.

Your last point does not address my point. It's the third instance of the government trying to make decisions without going through parliament.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But why should Ireland factor into my calculations, and again, no offence to Irish dakka members here.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


But why should Ireland factor into my calculations, and again, no offence to Irish dakka members here.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are several responses to your points.

The first is that the status of the Irish border concerns the Norther Irish as well as Eire.

The second is that the UK is supposed to be seeking a friendly, co-operative, mutually beneficial post-Brexit situation with the EU.

Your last point does not address my point. It's the third instance of the government trying to make decisions without going through parliament.

If parliament won't stand up for itself, why should anybody else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

And they'll leave the EU with the rest of us.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But why should Ireland factor into my calculations, and again, no offence to Irish dakka members here.

Because we rely on people voting in referendums to have an understanding of all of the issues and not be entirely selfish. Just because the Irish border doesn't directly affect you (it will if it allows the restrictions to be so easily bypassed) doesn't mean you shouldn't care about it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Like I said 10 pages back, it's just as well people like Christopher Columbus didn't worry about stormy seas, or Neil Armstrong didn't worry about tripping over Lunar rocks, otherwise mankind would still be banging rocks together in some cave.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Northern Irish peace process started about 20 years ago.

 Hollow wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Like I said 10 pages back, it's just as well people like Christopher Columbus didn't worry about stormy seas, or Neil Armstrong didn't worry about tripping over Lunar rocks, otherwise mankind would still be banging rocks together in some cave.

Columbus did worry about stormy seas. It's how he was able to plot of decent course and not end up at the bottom of the ocean. Armstrong (and NASA) did worry about tripping over lunar rocks, that's why they spent months picking the perfect landing spot and Armstrong didn't fall, rip his suit and have his eyeballs sucked from his skull. Careful consideration and worrying about potential issues allow for the best possible outcome. Jumping cavalier into something can work, but it also ends up in many a faceplant.

The lack of nuance in the referendum (whilst appealing to the simplistic black n'white thinking of many Brexiteers, displayed admirally by yourself in this thread) is what worries so many people.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are several responses to your points.

The first is that the status of the Irish border concerns the Norther Irish as well as Eire.

The second is that the UK is supposed to be seeking a friendly, co-operative, mutually beneficial post-Brexit situation with the EU.

Your last point does not address my point. It's the third instance of the government trying to make decisions without going through parliament.

If parliament won't stand up for itself, why should anybody else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

And they'll leave the EU with the rest of us.

Parliament is standing up for itself. That doesn't allow the government to keep acting illegally.

Maybe the Northern Irish will vote for independence from the UK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42112436

An interesting report from the Social Mobility Commission shows that inequality of opportunity is spread around the country in a somewhat unexpected way.

Radio 4 this morning had an MP on who was saying it isn't rocket science to sort this out. These disadvantaged areas need education, jobs, and infrastructure.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

if you tell millions of voters in Britain that they shouldn't vote on their country's future in case trouble breaks out in Ireland, well, you're effectively robbing these people of agency and causing resentment on both sides.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not up to you, it is the decision of Parliament.

 Hollow wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

if you tell millions of voters in Britain that they shouldn't vote on their country's future in case trouble breaks out in Ireland, well, you're effectively robbing these people of agency and causing resentment on both sides.

I didn't say that, nobody has said that. What has been said is; 'What will happen regarding the only place where the UK has a land border with EU, the political body that we are potentially voting to leave, which has free movement of people and essentially open borders" is something, that any sensible person, should have added into their evaluation when voting.

You are the one advocating ignorance and telling people that voting should should be based on cavalier guttural instincts.

Britain won't build border posts = zero money spent by Britain.

If the Republic want to install a border, that's their choice and would obviously have to pay for it themselves.

"The Indian high commissioner has warned that an agreement [between Britain and India] might not be in place until 2030 — and said talks haven't even begun.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

And they'll leave the EU with the rest of us.

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

And they'll leave the EU with the rest of us.

Sure they will, just like Scotland and London and other pro-remain areas.

A more extreme case will be Gibraltar, which voted 96% remain and will still be dragged out of the EU.

Is Brexit worth the very real economic and social disruption to those areas? You have stated that you didn't even take that into account when casting your vote, so it's up to the Irish to stand up for themselves and not get caught in the wave.

 reds8n wrote:

Britain won't build border posts = zero money spent by Britain.

If the Republic want to install a border, that's their choice and would obviously have to pay for it themselves.

err nope.

Again the actual facts of reality override your rhetoric.

Outside single market, UK is OBLIGED under WTO most-favoured nation rules to have controls at ALL border crossings, except with countries it has free-trade deals with.

With regards to the India situation :

http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-must-accept-immigration-post-brexit-trade-deals-india-liam-fox-2017-11

"The Indian high commissioner has warned that an agreement [between Britain and India] might not be in place until 2030 — and said talks haven't even begun.

But but they said it was all going to be so easy ?!

Although, ironically, it does look like Brexit might help the EU with regards to their trade with India :
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-india-trade-germany-pushes-for-post-brexit-deal/

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But why should the British people be guilt tripped into not voting Brexit in case trouble breaks out at the Irish border?

Because the Irish in Northern Ireland are British, too.

And they'll leave the EU with the rest of us.

Sure they will, just like Scotland and London and other pro-remain areas.

A more extreme case will be Gibraltar, which voted 96% remain and will still be dragged out of the EU.

Is Brexit worth the very real economic and social disruption to those areas? You have stated that you didn't even take that into account when casting your vote, so it's up to the Irish to stand up for themselves and not get caught in the wave.

Gibraltar can't have it both ways. They can't wave the Union jack one minute, and then complain about a vote made by the country they love, just because they didn't like it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


The Irish border issue is only the thin edge of a very long wedge being deployed by the Remain side.

Remain are still fighting a rear-guard action to delay or stop Brexit.

First it was the Gina Millar court battle to stop Brexit, but that failed.

Recently, it was the Leave only won because Putin has a secret army of bots and hackers that brain-washed the home counties into voting leave, argument.

And now we have the Polly Toynbees of the world begging for the Irish border issue to delay Brexit.

It only confirms what I've been saying for months: Remain were bloody useless! Where was their argument, their bold vision to win over people to keep us in the EU?
Nowhere! It was feeble, wishy-washy stuff.

Once we've moved on from the Irish issue, it'll be the Brexit is bad, because we didn't sign up to the EU's asteroid defence system, and Britain will be a magnet for giant asteroids, argument.

Ireland is not the issue here. It's Remain's last stand that's the issue here.

Let's wait 12 months before we start worrying about border posts and WTO rules.

A hard Brexit will have a ‘catastrophic impact’ on the European meat industry, leading to job losses and price hikes, according to a stark new report.
‘Crisis - The EU Meat Industry in a Hard Brexit Scenario’ report, commissioned by Europe’s meat industry body UECBV, analyses the potential impact of a hard Brexit on the European and UK meat industry.
It found that a ‘no-deal’ outcome would lead to a collapse in trade, with a 90% drop in beef exports and 53% drop in lamb exports from the UK to the EU.
In this scenario, meat products would face greater burdens than almost any other sector.
According to the report, the industry would face higher WTO tariffs than any other sector, and face additional costs of veterinary checks, in addition to the customs checks faced by all goods.

It also warns of major disruption to supply chains, and chaos for just-in-time fresh meat delivery systems.
Conservative estimates in the report put exports from the UK to the EU falling by up to 90% for beef, 56% for pigmeat and 53% for sheepmeat.
UECBV explains that it would be "very difficult" for UK suppliers to find alternative markets for these products domestically, as the UK tends to export cheaper cuts not demanded locally. This will in turn hurt British farmers and businesses, leading to job losses across the UK.
'Massive price increase'
Similar reductions of meat imports from the EU will lead to shortfalls in the supply of beef, pork and sheep products, especially higher value cuts such as steak, bacon and leg of lamb.
The report warns that this will lead to "massive" price increases for British consumers on meat products, pricing traditional British meals out of reach for families.
The report finds that a hard Brexit will have a profoundly negative impact on the European meat market given the major trade flows between EU27 and UK. As the UK has a principal deficit meat market, it says the negative impacts will be felt throughout EU.

As meat-processing involves the disassembly of carcass to a myriad of consumer cuts and products, it thus has to find markets for all parts of the carcass and therefore the impact will be transmitted throughout the single market to affect all countries, even those with limited direct trade with UK.
The report warns that the magnitude of shock of a hard Brexit would be significantly greater than the industry crisis created by the Russian food import ban 2014, and it would be more difficult to find alternative markets for diverted products.
Solutions are given by the report, including a transitional period to allow businesses to adjust to new arrangements and a future trading relationship that creates minimal burden for business.
It also recommends a continued regulatory convergence between UK and EU and market support mechanisms, including increased market access, internationally simplified transit systems, and investment in port facilities.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Gibraltar can't have it both ways. They can't wave the Union jack one minute, and then complain about a vote made by the country they love, just because they didn't like it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I voted for Scottish independence, the majority voted to remain. Obviously I don't like the result, but I respect the vote, hence why you never see me driving a armoured column to London.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Gibraltar can't have it both ways. They can't wave the Union jack one minute, and then complain about a vote made by the country they love, just because they didn't like it.

The problems arise despite Turkey being in the EU customs union, because – like Theresa May’s plan for Brexit – it does not have free movement of people and is outside the single market.
(...)
Open-access road transport deals have been agreed with Norway and the other members of the European Economic Area (EEA), but Britain has insisted it will not join the group.