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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So Britain can't leave the EU for at least 50 years in case people in Northern Ireland start shooting each other again?

No liberal democracy on Earth could function under those restrictions.

It's blackmail, pure and simple, and I'm not afraid to call it what it is.

Britain can leave the EU without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. Our government, however, has arbitrarily chosen the form of leaving which does.

Divorce bill predicted to be about £57bn.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

So Britain can't leave the EU for at least 50 years in case people in Northern Ireland start shooting each other again?

No liberal democracy on Earth could function under those restrictions.

It's blackmail, pure and simple, and I'm not afraid to call it what it is.

No, you can vote how you want, but you still need to own any bloodshed caused by that vote. It's obviously a price you're willing to pay, so just be honest about it.

You never did answer the question: "how badly does brexit have to go for you to regret it? Whats your red line?"

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So Britain can't leave the EU for at least 50 years in case people in Northern Ireland start shooting each other again?

No liberal democracy on Earth could function under those restrictions.

It's blackmail, pure and simple, and I'm not afraid to call it what it is.

Britain can leave the EU without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. Our government, however, has arbitrarily chosen the form of leaving which does.

So again, British people peacefully vote to leave customs union and single market, as is our divine right = terror groups have the green light to kill people again.

The IRA and the UFF may have pulled the trigger, but it was those damn Leave voters that flooded over to Northern Ireland and forced them to do it...

That's one hell of a justification. Never let it be said that the Irish don't have a sense of humour.

Feth me, and to think I'm the one accused of mental gymnastics!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Divorce bill predicted to be about £57bn.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

So Britain can't leave the EU for at least 50 years in case people in Northern Ireland start shooting each other again?

No liberal democracy on Earth could function under those restrictions.

It's blackmail, pure and simple, and I'm not afraid to call it what it is.

No, you can vote how you want, but you still need to own any bloodshed caused by that vote. It's obviously a price you're willing to pay, so just be honest about it.

You never did answer the question: "how badly does brexit have to go for you to regret it? Whats your red line?"

The people who pull the trigger and plant the bombs are responsible. Not me. Never.

And if they try to blame Brexit for their actions, then it'll be weasel words from start to finish.

Herzlos wrote:
You never did answer the question: "how badly does brexit have to go for you to regret it? Whats your red line?"

For me: bloodshed.

But as Kilkrazy pointed out, it is possible to Brexit without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. I'd prefer a soft Brexit if thats the only way to avoid The Troubles 2: Electric Boogaloo.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So again, British people peacefully vote to leave customs union and single market, as is our divine right = terror groups have the green light to kill people again.

British people voted not considering the stability of an unstable part of the country (NI is British, they have a vote, they chose to remain), and the British Government are pursuing an option that'll jepordize the stability of that unstable region.

Those starting the troubles again will be the ones directly responsible, but Leave voters bear some responsibility for potentially unravelling the agreement that kept a lid on things.

Not me. Never.

You can pretend not to be responsible all you want, but as a Brexiteer who's made it clear you don't care about Ireland, you're going to get the blame anyway, because you're still responsible in part. Hopefully either (a) we find an option that doesn't restart troubles and/or (b) brexit will be worth it.

I notice you quoted but didn't answer the question. Where's your red line?

On reflection, every single convicted rapist in Britain's jails should be let out tomorrow on the basis that they are not to blame for their crimes. Clearly, it's the woman's fault for wearing the 'wrong' clothes, or talking to them in a bar, etc etc

An apology should be issued to every Nazi convicted and hanged at Nuremburg, on the grounds that Jewish people didn't say hello to them in passing, or said bad words to them. The Nazis are not to blame. Jewish people were on their hands and knees begging to be sent to death camps.

On the 1st of September 1939, the Polish government sent a message to Berlin requesting that the German military invade Poland, kill Polish soldiers and civilians, and enslave its people.

And obviously, when terror groups in Ireland smuggle in weapons, and kill and maim people. it's not their fault. It's little old ladies in Devon voting for Brexit that's to blame...

Dakkadakka? I love this place. It's crazy!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The difficulty? The difficultty is that I, and millions of others, are being robbed of the right to peacefully chose the destiny of Britain's future,

The only thing that's being 'robbed' from you is the wool over your eyes that you put there yourself. Choose your path, by all means, but own the consequences. This, being one of them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

because another so called sovereign nation might get upset.

'So called'? How dare you sir. HOW BLOODY DARE YOU.

we're plenty sovereign. We are just grown up enough to realise we have more 'pull' as part of the bloc that is the EU than we do on our own - we have eight hundred years of your lot running roughshod over us when we were alone to attest to that. Here's the thing that all small nations understand - unless,you are a 'great power', you can't throw your weight around, and frankly, there's is safety and prosperity in groups. Otherwise you are prey for pretatory neighbours. And I'm sorry to burst your delusional bubble, but Britain isn't a great power either, and hasn't been for about sixty odd years. The time of empire is gone, and you're soon to find that you're just a small island off the edge of Europe that no one really bothers about.

And on a personal note, as 'one of them' - you know, an emigrant, I'm used to people with accents different to my own writing my laws and spending my tax money. It's not the worst thing in the world.

Oh, and Ireland joining the EU (eec back in the day) was the best thing to happen to our little island in the last hundred years. Other than the grand slams in the six nations.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Never in a million years would I dare dictate to the Republic if they should stay in or leave the EU, so I'll be damned if Dublin is laying down the law to us.

Pfft. If it promised you brexit you'd invade Ireland in a heartbeat and burn Dublin to the ground.

An here's the thing. In your fanaticism, you call it 'dublin laying down the law'. In the real world, we call it 'the other sides position and concerns '. Its not just about you. Get that into your head. It's not a simple slogan on a bus or a headline. This is serious, seriously important stuff here. The kind of stuff you foolishly scoff at and cheerfully (and foolishly) embrace ignorance of. There is a lot of nuance and ramifications. And It's a negotiation. Which involves multiple parties - i.e. Not just you brexiteers standing up, shouting and demanding everything. Both sides get a say in this -'it's not your fantasy of 'negotiations' being defines as Britain thumping its chest, shouting loudly and getting everything it demands and has to pay nothing. Other sides have huge and extremely valid concerns. The border area of Northern Ireland and the blood soaked history there being one. As much as you like to ignore facts and reason, other sides have a stake in this too. Despite your fanaticising, you don't just get to ignore them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is a textbook example of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

From a brexiteer? Priceless. Oh the irony.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We can't choose to leave the customs union or single market, because people might start killing each other? .

Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't lit the bonfire. No different to two colonels complaining about the savages murdring each other, after they sold them the damned Lewis guns in the first place. But hey. at least in the firesale afterwards the super rich get to walk in and steal all the assets at bargain basement prices.

The truth is, despite your assertions otherwise, this is something you should have thought about. There's more to this than headlines and slogans on a bus. You know, those pesky details and lives of people you like to ignore as 'horsegak'.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

That is blackmail. Political blackmail. If that's the best argument Remain have to offer, then they deserved to lose.

It's not blackmail. They're called consequences. Own them. Or lose any shred of respectability you have left.

Herzlos wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


So again, British people peacefully vote to leave customs union and single market, as is our divine right = terror groups have the green light to kill people again.

British people voted not considering the stability of an unstable part of the country (NI is British, they have a vote, they chose to remain), and the British Government are pursuing an option that'll jepordize the stability of that unstable region.

Those starting the troubles again will be the ones directly responsible, but Leave voters bear some responsibility for potentially unravelling the agreement that kept a lid on things.

Not me. Never.

You can pretend not to be responsible all you want, but as a Brexiteer who's made it clear you don't care about Ireland, you're going to get the blame anyway, because you're still responsible in part. Hopefully either (a) we find an option that doesn't restart troubles and/or (b) brexit will be worth it.

I notice you quoted but didn't answer the question. Where's your red line?

My redline? Never give into blackmail.

I repeat myself, but I voted to peacefully leave a trading bloc. I din't vote yes to British troops back at Dublin Castle.

Humans will use any justification for violence. God, Nazism, religion, Marxism, whatever.

Brexit is an excuse for people to absolve themselves of any personal responsibility for violent actions they themselves carry out.

I will never carry the can for that. Never. And nor should any Brexit voter.

Remain's cynical use of Northern Ireland is nothing but a morally and intellectually bankrupt argument for staying in the EU.

DINLT...just stop. Even I think you're embarrassing yourself now.

There are ways to fulfil Brexit without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. If that means a "soft Brexit", so be it. Thats infinitely preferable to me over the return of bombs to Irish streets.

@DINLT

Except there are ways to leave the EU without violating the Good Friday Agreement.

You just don't like them and are willing to gamble with people's lives to get what you want. And in doing so you reveal that you actually don't give a flying feth about the country. A country is not the land it occupies, it isn't the political institutions it is governed by. A country is the people, and as soon as you are willing to put those people at risk to further your own political ambitions, you no longer have any claim to love your country.

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The difficulty? The difficultty is that I, and millions of others, are being robbed of the right to peacefully chose the destiny of Britain's future,

The only thing that's being 'robbed' from you is the wool over your eyes that you put there yourself. Choose your path, by all means, but own the consequences. This, being one of them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

because another so called sovereign nation might get upset.

'So called'? How dare you sir. HOW BLOODY DARE YOU.

we're plenty sovereign. We are just grown up enough to realise we have more 'pull' as part of the bloc that is the EU than we do on our own - we have eight hundred years of your lot running roughshod over us when we were alone to attest to that. Here's the thing that all small nations understand - unless,you are a 'great power', you can't throw your weight around, and frankly, there's is safety and prosperity in groups. Otherwise you are prey for pretatory neighbours. And I'm sorry to burst your delusional bubble, but Britain isn't a great power either, and hasn't been for about sixty odd years. The time of empire is gone, and you're soon to find that you're just a small island off the edge of Europe that no one really bothers about.

And on a personal note, as 'one of them' - you know, an emigrant, I'm used to people with accents different to my own writing my laws and spending my tax money. It's not the worst thing in the world.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Never in a million years would I dare dictate to the Republic if they should stay in or leave the EU, so I'll be damned if Dublin is laying down the law to us.

Pfft. If it promised you brexit you'd invade Ireland in a heartbeat and burn Dublin to the ground.

An here's the thing. It's a negotiation. Both sides get a say -'it's not your fantasy of 'negotiations' being defines as Britain thumping its chest, shouting loudly and getting everything it demands and has to pay nothing. Other sides have huge and extremely valid concerns. The border area of Northern Ireland and the blood soaked history there being one. As much as you like to ignore facts and reason, other sides have a stake in this too. Despite your fanaticising, you don't just get to ignore them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

This is a textbook example of wanting to have their cake and eat it.

From a brexiteer? Priceless. Oh the irony.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

We can't choose to leave the customs union or single market, because people might start killing each other? .

Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't lit the bonfire. No different to two colonels complaining about the savages murdring each other, after the soldier them the damned Lewis guns in the first place. But hey. at least in the firesale afterwards the super rich get to walk in and steal all the assets at bargain basement prices.

The truth is, despite your assertions otherwise, this is something you should have thought about. There's more to this than headlines and slogans on a bus. You know, those pesky details and lives of people you like to ignore as 'horsegak'.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

That is blackmail. Political blackmail. If that's the best argument Remain have to offer, then they deserved to lose.

It's not blackmail. They're called consequences. Own them. Or lose any shred of respectability you have left.

Again, it's a long winded way of saying won't nobody think of the children.

I do use the term so called sovereign nation, because now you're moaning that another sovereign nation has peacefully voted to leave a trading bloc. You really do want to have your cake and eat it.

You got your freedom to stand on your own two feet and control your own destiny. That was an aim outlined in the 1916 Declaration.

Good luck to you. But how dare you tell another nation how they can and cannot vote in their own referendum on their membership of a trading bloc. You would have a point if we voted for British troops to return to Dublin castle. But we didn't.

it's 2017, not 1917. The Republic is not part of Britain. You have zero right to have a say on our destiny. You choose your path, let us walk ours.

By your logic, because the USA was part of Britain at one time, London should tell Washington to get rid of Trump.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I will never carry the can for that. Never. And nor should any Brexit voter.

Hypocrite.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Remain's cynical use of Northern Ireland is nothing but a morally and intellectually bankrupt argument for staying in the EU.

Nothing cynical about it, nor is it morally bankrupt or intellectually bankrupt. This is a genuinely, serious concern, with genuine serious life and death consequences andnpretty far from 'horsegak'. You are the one who is morally and intellectually bankrupt for even attempting to claim this. Again HOW DARE YOU.

If the bombs go off again in Northern Ireland as a direct consequence of the brexit you are so fanatically embracing, then the blood is on your hands too. You lit the fuse. Own it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Again, it's a long winded way of saying won't nobody think of the children.

I do use the term so called sovereign nation, because now you're moaning that another sovereign nation has peacefully voted to leave a trading bloc. You really do want to have your cake and eat it.
.

Sovereign nation, not 'so called'. How dare you look down on us. And yes, we're complaining about your colossally stupid actions because they're causing needless complications and problems to us all. We all suffer. Why - do you wan us to do as you do, shrug our shoulders, thump our chests really loudly and shout 'amhrann na bhfiann' really loudly whilst ignoring reality? Grow up.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

You got your freedom to stand on your own two feet and control your own destiny. That was an aim outlined in the 1916 Declaration.

Which was 400 words long, and frankly, a lot of things have changed since then. Padraig pearse was a bit of a romantic idiot with no head for reality.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Good luck to you. But how dare you tell another nation how they can and cannot vote in their own referendum on their membership of a trading bloc. You would have a point if we voted for British troops to return to Dublin castle. But we didn't.

We're not telling you how you can and cannot vote. But we can damn well look you straight in the eye at the negotiation table and cal you out for your selfishness, short sightedness and demand assurances and solutions to the consequences of your actions. It's not just about the membership of a trading bloc. This issue s bigger. Get that fact into your head. At the end of the day, we have to live here on this island and share it, post-brexit. And that's fine. But it needs to be done in a way that doesn't light up a damned firestorm north of the border and in a way that I should acceptable to all sides.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

it's 2017, not 1917. The Republic is not part of Britain. You have zero right to have a say on our destiny. You choose your path, let us walk ours.

Indeed. It's 2017. Not 1917. We are a sovereign nation. We are equals. We don't live alone. Chose your paTh by all means. But bear in mind, the date of your empire are gone - you don't get to ride roughshod over us, or anyone else any more. You don't get to throw your weight around, and demand everything without having to pay for it or take heed of consequences. It's time for Britain to grow the hell up and stop acting like a spoiled teenager and realise that there is more to this than just 'brexit uber alles'.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

By your logic, because the USA was part of Britain at one time, London should tell Washington to get rid of Trump.

That's... it my logic at all. But im not surprised that in your skewed narrative where facts are meaningless and reality is distorted that you think like that. Come back to me when you're sober.

I would think that voting for a decision which affects the whole of the United Kingdom without considering the implications on the whole of the United Kingdom to be grossly negligent.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
DINLT...just stop. Even I think you're embarrassing yourself now.

There are ways to fulfil Brexit without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. If that means a "soft Brexit", so be it. Thats infinitely preferable to me over the return of bombs to Irish streets.

If we go down the road you suggest, the road that says don't vote peacefully to peacefully leave a trading block, then we can never come back.

We will have rolled up the white flag to the threat of violence. 50 million people can't peacefully decide a peaceful future, because a few thousand Irishmen and women hate each other. I'll be damned if I have that hanging over me. And I'll be damned if I'm getting the blame for something that happened in 1690.

We've been here before. Give him the Rhineland, and he'll ask for no more. Give him Austria, and that'll satisfy him. Giving up the Sudetenland will finally give us peace in Europe...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
DINLT...just stop. Even I think you're embarrassing yourself now.

There are ways to fulfil Brexit without breaking the Good Friday Agreement. If that means a "soft Brexit", so be it. Thats infinitely preferable to me over the return of bombs to Irish streets.

If we go down the road you suggest, the road that says don't vote peacefully to peacefully leave a trading block, then we can never come back.

We will have rolled up the white flag to the threat of violence. 50 million people can't peacefully decide a peaceful future, because a few thousand Irishmen and women hate each other. I'll be damned if I have that hanging over me. And I'll be damned if I'm getting the blame for something that happened in 1690.

We've been here before. Give him the Rhineland, and he'll ask for no more. Give him Austria, and that'll satisfy him. Giving up the Sudetenland will finally give us peace in Europe...

What's funny here is that back then it was Hitler who ignored the peace agreement but here you are, advocating we do the same because you don't care if people get killed so long as you have Brexit your way.

Deadnight wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I will never carry the can for that. Never. And nor should any Brexit voter.

Hypocrite.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Remain's cynical use of Northern Ireland is nothing but a morally and intellectually bankrupt argument for staying in the EU.

Nothing cynical about it, nor is it morally bankrupt or intellectually bankrupt. This is a genuinely, serious concern, with genuine serious life and death consequences andnpretty far from 'horsegak'. You are the one who is morally and intellectually bankrupt for even attempting to claim this. Again HOW DARE YOU.

If the bombs go off again in Northern Ireland as a direct consequence of the brexit you are so fanatically embracing, then the blood is on your hands too. You lit the fuse. Own it.

If you want to blame me for actions that happen in a nation I've never visited, which were carried out by people I'll never meet, simply because I voted to peacefully leave a trading block, then go ahead and do it.

All I see here is excuse after excuse to justify violence.

You've been a sovereign nation for nearly 100 years. 100 fething years, but it's still Britain's fault.

Who in Britain is calling for an army to invade Ireland and wipe out the Catholic Church? Nobody.

Who in Britain is calling for the Black and Tans to head for Dublin? Nobody.

Only the Irish can solve Irish problems.

Except the Northern Irish are citizens of the UK.

That puts the responsibility on the UK government to protect them. That can be with sending UK soldiers into Northern Ireland, or it can be through negotiating a Brexit which does not break the Good Friday Agreement. Which would you prefer, DINLT?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
. I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero

While I don't wish do dig directly at any individual on this, I do find this to be a recurring theme amongst Brexiteers. An obtuse refusal to accept responsibility for ones actions.

You voted for it, you got it. You might think the good out weighs the bad, you might still stand by your actions and say they are justified. Fine, we understand that. Now develop a backbone and take liability of the things you have wrought.

Edit: but then again, this is a poster who has suggested on numerous occasions that they think the best way to deal with the situation is to hand part of the UK over to a foreign country and deny those UK citizens living there, including a majority who consider themselves British, the right of self determination.

 Henry wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
. I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero

While I don't wish do dig directly at any individual on this, I do find this to be a recurring theme amongst Brexiteers. An obtuse refusal to accept responsibility for ones actions.

You voted for it, you got it. You might think the good out weighs the bad, you might still stand by your actions and say they are justified. Fine, we understand that. Now develop a backbone and take liability of the things you have wrought.

Stand by my actions? The Republic fought for centuries to gain its freedom, to walk its own path, and choose it's own destiny. Fine by me.

And yet, they complain when Britain, who they got their freedom from, does something they don't like. It's like the USA blaming Britain for NAFTA.

We're not talking about Britain attacking Ireland here, we're talking about leaving a trading bloc as a result of a peaceful vote.

Without a shadow of a doubt, this is history's greatest example of somebody wanting to have their cake and eat it.

And I'm not afraid to call Dublin out on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except the Northern Irish are citizens of the UK.

That puts the responsibility on the UK government to protect them. That can be with sending UK soldiers into Northern Ireland, or it can be through negotiating a Brexit which does not break the Good Friday Agreement. Which would you prefer, DINLT?

I would prefer some personal responsiblity, rather than use any excuse to starting pulling triggers and planting bombs.

Feth me, this ain't the 1590s. Nobody in England gives two hoots about Ireland anymore or wants to send in the redcoats.

Who is persecuting the Irish here? Nobody! Fething nobody. They're doing it to each other. How is that our fault if we vote for Brexit.

I have hated every Tory government I have ever lived under. And yet, I never sent in the Panzers to kill Tory voters in Kent.

If we voted Remain, and trouble broke out because of the DUP's dodgy heating fund, or power sharing broke down, am I blame for not voting Brexit?

If these terror groups thought they could justify their actions by blaming a giant jelly bean in the sky, they would do it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Henry wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
. I will not be blackmailed like that, and I will NEVER bear any responsibility for that if it does happen. Zero, Absolutely fething zero

While I don't wish do dig directly at any individual on this, I do find this to be a recurring theme amongst Brexiteers. An obtuse refusal to accept responsibility for ones actions.

You voted for it, you got it. You might think the good out weighs the bad, you might still stand by your actions and say they are justified. Fine, we understand that. Now develop a backbone and take liability of the things you have wrought.

Stand by my actions? The Republic fought for centuries to gain its freedom, to walk its own path, and choose it's own destiny. Fine by me.

And yet, they complain when Britain, who they got their freedom from, does something they don't like. It's like the USA blaming Britain for NAFTA.

We're not talking about Britain attacking Ireland here, we're talking about leaving a trading bloc as a result of a peaceful vote.

Without a shadow of a doubt, this is history's greatest example of somebody wanting to have their cake and eat it.

And I'm not afraid to call Dublin out on this.

Northern Ireland didn't vote to leave. Forcing a Brexit which is more likely to restart the bloodshed is not only unnecessary, it is also being done by the people who will not be having their friends and family murdered.

Forgive me for thinking that the people who would actually be at risk should be given the power to not be marched into nailbombs against their wishes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

If these terror groups thought they could justify their actions by blaming a giant jelly bean in the sky, they would do it.

A giant jelly bean isn't required by a peace agreement which the UK and ROI signed up to willingly. Free movement over the Irish border, is.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Without a shadow of a doubt, this is history's greatest example of somebody wanting to have their cake and eat it.

This may be the first truthful statement you've made in a while. The UK Brexiteers really are making a textbook demonstration of how to want to have your cake and eat it.

The Good Friday agreement is an agreement between two governments - the UK and Ireland - with great support from the international community. It was signed by representatives of both countries. Now one of those countries has put events into effect that dramatically alter the terms of the Good Friday agreement and the other country is supposed to... what? Just accept the new terms without having any say? Just take one up the arse because the other country had a hissy fit? No! One country is breaking the terms of the agreement. That country is responsible for breaking the contract. And you are partly responsible for the actions of that country.

Grow a spine. Own it.

Some people in this thread are on track for a warning and a holiday from the OT. A long one. Any further misrepresenting of the points people are making, hyperbolic over the top nonsense about how they are saying one side is blaming them for the Troubles/terrorism kicking off again which is not what these other users are saying, it's as bad as a "fixed that for you", because all you're doing is misrepresenting what other users have said. This is incredibly rude Keep that in mind as we go forwards

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


And I'm not afraid to call Dublin out on this.

How brave of you, considering you have no intention of ever going to the place where the violence will be should the peace fall apart.

I wonder just how many people here actually lived through the troubles? And I mean that in a way that they were actively, cognitivly aware of what was going on?

Unless you are old enough I would ask that you not go slinging accusations about.

I honestly hope that there is not a reoccurence of the violence, because those were very dark days, very much reenacted with the persecution of minority muslims in other countries. However if there is, it is not the sole province of Brexiteers to take responsibility and blame for this. There are two parties to these negotiations and both sides need to take blame. Both parties need to take a long hard look at themselves. Notice has been served to leave the EU. It is then up to both parties to create a solution. Ireland and the EU sticking their heads in the sand saying that its up the the UK to find the solution is deluding themselves. Failure on their side to find that medium solutions puts the blame as squarely on their shoulders as those who voted for Brexit.

Cheers

Andrew

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And yet, they complain when Britain, who they got their freedom from, does something they don't like. It's like the USA blaming Britain for NAFTA.

No, it's not at all. And at this point I honestly don't know if you understand why that's a load of crap or if you are actually deluded enough to think you made a good comparison there.

The UK was not a signatory of NAFTA, it was a signatory of the Good Friday agreement. That you can't even grasp this shows how out of your depth you are getting.

(disclosure for why this subject gets my goat: lived in Antrim for a year. I learned a lot in that time and have tried to stay educated on the subject since)

 AndrewC wrote:
I wonder just how many people here actually lived through the troubles? And I mean that in a way that they were actively, cognitivly aware of what was going on?

Unless you are old enough I would ask that you not go slinging accusations about.

I honestly hope that there is not a reoccurence of the violence, because those were very dark days, very much reenacted with the persecution of minority muslims in other countries. However if there is, it is not the sole province of Brexiteers to take responsibility and blame for this. There are two parties to these negotiations and both sides need to take blame. Both parties need to take a long hard look at themselves. Notice has been served to leave the EU. It is then up to both parties to create a solution. Ireland and the EU sticking their heads in the sand saying that its up the the UK to find the solution is deluding themselves. Failure on their side to find that medium solutions puts the blame as squarely on their shoulders as those who voted for Brexit.

Cheers

Andrew

But isn't the soft Brexit that those countries are looking for/other users are mentioning the middle ground? EU/Ireland would rather Britain have remained and been a functioning member. Brexit voters and Tories have decided they want out, in such a way that it breaks the Good Friday agreement. Isn't the desire to keep that agreement by keeping to a soft Brexit that middle ground? What is the middle ground you envision, EU/Ireland giving them the hard Brexit they want and also giving them a magical way to keep the Good Friday agreement that doesn't clash with the hard Brexit? That just seems like its more asking for the EU/Ireland to just render unto England whatever they want, rather than an actual middle ground.

 AndrewC wrote:
I wonder just how many people here actually lived through the troubles? And I mean that in a way that they were actively, cognitivly aware of what was going on?

Unless you are old enough I would ask that you not go slinging accusations about.

I haven't, I'm English. But my Dad's side of the family came from Belfast, and therefore had first hand experience.

A return to the Troubles is the one potential consequence of Brexit that I want to avoid at all costs. If that means downgrading Brexit from "hard" to "soft", so be it.

I honestly hope that there is not a reoccurence of the violence, because those were very dark days, very much reenacted with the persecution of minority muslims in other countries. However if there is, it is not the sole province of Brexiteers to take responsibility and blame for this. There are two parties to these negotiations and both sides need to take blame. Both parties need to take a long hard look at themselves. Notice has been served to leave the EU. It is then up to both parties to create a solution. Ireland and the EU sticking their heads in the sand saying that its up the the UK to find the solution is deluding themselves. Failure on their side to find that medium solutions puts the blame as squarely on their shoulders as those who voted for Brexit.

Cheers

Andrew

Exalted.

 AndrewC wrote:
I wonder just how many people here actually lived through the troubles? And I mean that in a way that they were actively, cognitivly aware of what was going on?

Unless you are old enough I would ask that you not go slinging accusations about.

I honestly hope that there is not a reoccurence of the violence, because those were very dark days, very much reenacted with the persecution of minority muslims in other countries. However if there is, it is not the sole province of Brexiteers to take responsibility and blame for this. There are two parties to these negotiations and both sides need to take blame. Both parties need to take a long hard look at themselves. Notice has been served to leave the EU. It is then up to both parties to create a solution. Ireland and the EU sticking their heads in the sand saying that its up the the UK to find the solution is deluding themselves. Failure on their side to find that medium solutions puts the blame as squarely on their shoulders as those who voted for Brexit.

Cheers

Andrew

People have often asked my age, well, I can tell you now that I was born in 1968. Oh yeah, I remember the 1980s, and the bombs...

I also remember the Falklands War. I don't recall anybody on the Falklands asking to be invaded...

And this is the problem. There appears to be no soft brexit available. We seem to have two opposing camps here, dont leave and hard brexit. In theory those two should meet somewhere in the middle, but being honest here I do not see anyway of those two divergent views being reconciled. Whether its because the Uk is trying to negotiate with 27 other parties via one person who cant actually pass proposals on in a time efficient manner for a meaningful response, or the UK is a complete shambles or a mix of both.....

The nett effect is a massive game of chicken where neither side can blink. The EU cant be seen as weak just in case it starts an exodus. Even the meerest hint could embolden fringe parties into a fracture. So they cant blink. May and the current government are hanging on by a thread and any weakness there could spell the end of them. So they cant blink either. So where does that leave us?

 Henry wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And yet, they complain when Britain, who they got their freedom from, does something they don't like. It's like the USA blaming Britain for NAFTA.

No, it's not at all. And at this point I honestly don't know if you understand why that's a load of crap or if you are actually deluded enough to think you made a good comparison there.

The UK was not a signatory of NAFTA, it was a signatory of the Good Friday agreement. That you can't even grasp this shows how out of your depth you are getting.

(disclosure for why this subject gets my goat: lived in Antrim for a year. I learned a lot in that time and have tried to stay educated on the subject since)

You've posted good stuff before, so I don't believe for a minute that you absolve people of personal responsibility if they choose to pull a trigger or plant a bomb by their own free will.

How many bombs did Gandhi plant? How many people did he shoot?

Clear in thread warning left to stop making these kinds of comparisons, it is rude to just completely ignore the points other people are making

In the interests of balance I'll mention Loyalist terror groups. Peter Taylor's trilogy on the troubles, which I would recommend, is on the book shelf next to me.

I'll flick through book 2: Loyalists. Here's a sad tale. A Catholic man walking home gets murdered Clear in thread warning left to stop making these kinds of comparisons, it is rude to just completely ignore the points other people are making