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2017/04/28 07:39:31
Subject: The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
A few years ago, as I started my journey with the Imperium of Man, I created a custom space marine chapter known as Shadow's Hunters. They started several arguments, mostly because I didn't know 40k's background very well and my only exposure to space Marines was the 5th edition codex. Link to the first thread here:
The second one became better, with decent fluff and explanations for almost all the holes in the original backstory. I the went on to build a small 1500p army, mostly consisting of vets, before I got distracted by Warhammer Fantasy and later AoS. After that I turned to 30k, and never came back. Currently, Shadow's Hunter are on campaign in the attic, fighting of 3 Chaos space Marines on a low display table.
But with the Gathering Storm and all the 8th edition hype, I decided to revive my Marines. Shadow's Hunters return!
Ok, I've continued the backstory to explain what we've been doing since the Battle of T'gris:
Shadow's Hunters Revised Fluff:
Shadow's Hunters
Chapter Name: Shadow's Hunters!
Status: Labeled Heretics by some, though still technically loyal
Color Scheme: Black, Orange Shoulder Pads, Orange Details
Icon: Black or White Falcon
Battle Cry: For the Greater Good!
Founding:22
Primarch: Corax
Genetic Mutations:low psychic abilities
Home World: T'gris
Fortress Monastery: Destroyed
Active Marines: 847
Recruitment: Mostly from Gue'vesa, also others.
Chapter Master: Ra'van Al'la
Title of Chapter Master: Shas'o
Sworn Enemies: Black Legion,
Rival Chapters: Iron Hands,
Chapter Relics: Corax's Final Gift: A vial of uncorrupted Primachs Geneseed.
Perception of Humanity: Regards the Imperium as misguided. Believes that all humans serve a part in the workings of the Imperium and that all (except those tainted by chaos) should be forgiven and given second, third etc chances.Aims to convert as many humans as possible to the Greater Good!
HISTORY:
Shadow's Hunters (as in: the hunter's of shadow) are a Space Marine chapter created during the 22 found to help enforce the Blockade of the Eye of Terror.
They came into conflict with the Iron Hands after a battalion of Imperial Guard, who's transport ships had been infested by daemons, were exterminated. The argument escalated until Gethur Soulfist, Captain of the 3rd company of Shadows Hunters, attacked, and killed, an Iron Hands battle brother. The Shadows Hunters then fled, leaving the Eye of Terror and embarking on a Crusade across the Galaxy to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor.
The Shadow's Hunters spent many centuries fighting on behalf of the Imperium. Many victories were claimed by the Chapter, but not without cost. The Shadow's Hunters valued human life, and in time, they they clashed with the Inquisition. For some time, their humanism earned them a reputation as saviors to many worlds... and then they were claimed by a warp storm.
Their ships were spat out onto Tigris V, an unpopulated world on the Eastern fringe, and the gravity of the world pulled their warships into crash-landings. Without resources to leave and their chaplain dead, the Shadow's Hunter were left in the most ignaminous position a Space Marine could be left in- they farmed. For a hundred years, nearly a thousand of the Emperor's Chosen were forced to till earth and herd animals to provide their own sustenance. The world itself lacked any remotely heavy metals- there was no way off. In time, though, they had a brief turn of luck. Other settlers arrived on the world- human colonists from a region that was unknown to the Imperium. The Marines helped the colonists, taught them the truth of the Emperor, and protected them from the beasts that inhabited the world. For fifty years, this peace held.
It was many years later, that the planet came under attack by the Last Sons of Tagrion, a warband of Chaos Space Marines. The inscription on the Rock of Tolan tells of the battle that ensured. Thousand and thousands of Chaos Cultists, marines, Summoned Daemons , and unholy machines ran rampant across the sands of T'gris.
Unfortunately for Chaos, they were not the only force to arrive at this world. Tau scouts had detected several strange presences, and due to their disconnect from the warp, the strange gravitational fields did not affect the Tau warships. As the Marines fought a losing battle with Chaos, the Tau arrived in orbit and opened fire on, destroying many of the demented, unholy vessels orbiting Tigris. After deploying troops against their foes, the Tau warriors encountered the Space Marines attacking the same enemy.
"The cresent shaped ships drop upon the battlefield, weapons firing repeatedly. The heretics, surprised by this new shift in their sure victory, where slow to reconise the new threat, and many where cut down by blasts from the ships, or else quickly dispatched by our brothers. Those who survived the first onslaught stood in shock as all they had accomplished in the name of their dark gods crumbled. The battle was over within minutes."
Captain Devan, 6th Company.
"As the last cultist lay dying, the ships descended. The smallest [actually an Orca dropship] landed just meters from our Chapter Master. The bay dors opend, and from its hold came Xenos. The foremost, obviously the leader, halted, and without signal, the rest formed colums behind him. He spoke, surprisingly, in near perfect Low Gothic. 'I am Por'ui T'ren Resh'ur, envoy from the venerable Shas'el Kel'shan An'ir, Veteran of the 1 sphere expansion and She Who Walks Alone."
At this our [Chapter] Master replied: "We are Shadow's Hunter, descendants of Corvus Corax, and Space Marines of our noble Father, the God Emperor of Mankind. And thus, in the course of a fortnight, an alliance was forge that would change the course of our history."
-Sergeant Toren , later Tau'ren.
The Water Caste agreed to leave the world to the Shadow's Hunters, but kept up dialog. In time, the Hunters began to view the on their world as their dependents, and trade with the Tau showed them that perhaps the Inquisition was wrong about all xenos as well. A working relationship developed between the two groups, and slowly Tau influence spread through the world, including into the Chapter.
In time, the Shadow's Hunters, thanks to the Tau, where able to rebuild there fleet, and became the true Space Marine chapter they had been.
Timeline:
M.37: Shadow's Hunters are founded.
479 M.37: Shadow's Hunter task force deployed to enforce Eye of Terror blockade.
940 M38: Battle of Berallis III, Shadow's Hunters 2nd and 4th company deployed, along with Xionian Death Legion and elements of the Ordo Xenos.
858 M.38: Suribann Conflict; Shadow's Hunters embark on their penitent crusade.
312 M.39: last Imperial contact with Shadow's Hunters.
? M.41: remains of the Shadow's Hunters fleet exits the Warp near Tigris V.
59 M.41: Captain Amaterasu become chapter master.
570 M.41: First Battle of Tigris. Shadow's Hunters and Tau forces are able to defeat the Last Sons of Tagrion. Ravanalla becomes chapter master.
602 M.41: Shadow's Hunters fleet sighted by Imperial Forces. Chapter's status is changed to "active" in imperial records.
990 M.41: Second Battle of T'Gris. Inquisitor Catus of the Ordo Xenos, sent to investigate the Shadow's Hunters' fortress monastery, supported by Xionan Death Legion and Death Watch forces, attacks Tau and Gue'vesa ships. Shadow's Hunter's retaliate, but are defeated by the Inquisition. Shadow's Hunters flee with their human allies, but are scattered by the Imperial fleet.
999 M.41: Shadow's Hunters Marines sighted on both sides of the Damocles Gulf, aiding both Raven Guard and Tau forces.
999 M.41: Chapter Master Ra'van Al'la and members of the IV and I company of Shadow's Hunters are sighted on Cadia, fighting with Imperial forces.
999 M. 41: Captain Aladia exits the warp near Terra, followed by Raven Guard legionaries from the age of the Great Crusade.
999 M.41: Captain Aladia and Captain Gerthur are reunited on Maccrage. They and their Raven Guard allies depart for Prospero.
999 M.41: Ex-Chapter Master Amaterasu, freed by Trazyn the Infinite, and Althan Brightheart, return to T'au.
999 M.41: Chapter Master Ra'van Al'la and the remains of the Shadow's Hunters IV and I companies are attacked by Chaos forces.
It's certainly better than the previous versions, IMO. Just a few things I'm picking up on:
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
2) Why would the Raven Guard, a staunch loyalist and esteemed First Founding Chapter, ever have a solid, dependable alliance with a renegade Chapter? An Inquisitor, and even Deathwatch, found them guilty, and it's common knowledge it seems that they are strongly affiliated with Tau.
There's no way the Raven Guard would have an extended alliance with them. In an emergency, yes, but not out of willingness.
3) Who are Captains Aladia and Gerthur? What's their history together, because I don't think that's explained.
4) Why Macragge, the home of the Ultramarines? And especially so, given the whole Rising Storm? Also, why Prospero? Wasn't it destroyed?
5) Why does Amaterasu go to T'au? His Chapter wasn't linked to the Tau when he was still Chapter Master, because Ravanalla was the new CM.
6) Time and distance are big issues here. Aladia gets from Terra to Macragge in the same year.
Shadow Hunters are seen in the Damocles Gulf, Cadia, Terra, Macragge? Too far spread, IMO.
Hell, Rav'an Al'la is seen, in the same year, on Cadia and then later attacked in a separate incident.
They're too widespread, and really have no reason to be on Cadia if they are Tau loyalists, and would be killed on Terra.
My two cents.
They/them
2017/04/28 17:34:26
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
They where completely scattered after the second battle of t'gris, and don't operate as a single chapter. Wait on the names, i have files of fluff I still need to post.
EmberlordofFire8 wrote: They where completely scattered after the second battle of t'gris, and don't operate as a single chapter. Wait on the names, i have files of fluff I still need to post.
So, they'd be unable to communicate and operate efficiently, breaking into multiple warbands, almost. How do they handle recruiting and resupplying, when spread over the whole galaxy? How have they constructed the infrastructure necessary to support the warbands? Are they fleet based now, as a result? If so, how can they maintain resources and recruits - do they have to loot Imperial installations? If so, that makes them even more so on the traitor scale.
Also, you've not really address the other points made: It still doesn't explain how they, as xenos sympathisers and resisted the holy writ of the Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch, would every be accepted as chosen allies by the Raven Guard, or in the Fall of Cadia war. Aladia still moves very quickly, from Terra to Macragge in a year. Why Macragge and Prospero? Why would you be allowed on Macragge? Isn't Prospero quarantined/destroyed? Why did Amaterasu go to T'au?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/28 21:21:50
They/them
2017/04/29 06:26:55
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
Why would the Raven Guard, a staunch loyalist and esteemed First Founding Chapter, ever have a solid, dependable alliance with a renegade Chapter? An Inquisitor, and even Deathwatch, found them guilty, and it's common knowledge it seems that they are strongly affiliated with Tau.
There's no way the Raven Guard would have an extended alliance with them. In an emergency, yes, but not out of willingness.
If your referring to the Damocles Conflict, then yes. It was an emergency, and Shadow's Hunters showed up out of the blue, aided the Imperial forces, then switched sides multiple times.
3) Who are Captains Aladia and Gerthur? What's their history together, because I don't think that's explained.
Wait for it...
Why Macragge, the home of the Ultramarines? And especially so, given the whole Rising Storm? Also, why Prospero? Wasn't it destroyed?
Thats the thing. Most of this backstory is based on campaigns Ive played, and one of the next ones will be on Soritarius, and the other will include Guilliman. Magnus is currently trying to rebuild Prospero, and has placed Soritarius in orbit of the same sun. Check the new galaxy map.
5) Why does Amaterasu go to T'au? His Chapter wasn't linked to the Tau when he was still Chapter Master, because Ravanalla was the new CM.
You missed this:
Ex-Chapter Master Amaterasu, and Althan Brightheart
Althan Brightheart is their chief librarian, and since the deaths of their chaplains, who were all on one of the ships that didn't make it, has been acting as their battle priest, albeit combining the ideals of the greater good with the ancient Imperial Truth. He most likely brought Amaterasu to T'au to either convert him or dispose of him.
Time and distance are big issues here. Aladia gets from Terra to Macragge in the same year.
Webway. I forgot to mention that. The Shadow's Hunters IV company (the last "full" company) found a webway portal on T'gris. That was why the Chaos forces where there, and how Shadow's Hunters are able to move so quickly and disappear so fast. Again, part of a campaign i played
Shadow Hunters are seen in the Damocles Gulf, Cadia, Terra, Macragge? Too far spread, IMO.
All individual war bands, some of only a few marines. They all do their own thing now, as evident by the fact the Shadow's Hunters fought on both sides of the Damocles Gulf.
Hell, Rav'an Al'la is seen, in the same year, on Cadia and then later attacked in a separate incident.
They're too widespread, and really have no reason to be on Cadia if they are Tau loyalists, and would be killed on Terra.
They haven't been on Terra in the past thousand years. Alladia exited NEAR Terra, but most likely somewhere quite far from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is some more fluff:
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
Why would the Raven Guard, a staunch loyalist and esteemed First Founding Chapter, ever have a solid, dependable alliance with a renegade Chapter? An Inquisitor, and even Deathwatch, found them guilty, and it's common knowledge it seems that they are strongly affiliated with Tau. There's no way the Raven Guard would have an extended alliance with them. In an emergency, yes, but not out of willingness.
If your referring to the Damocles Conflict, then yes. It was an emergency, and Shadow's Hunters showed up out of the blue, aided the Imperial forces, then switched sides multiple times.
Exactly. They're traitors to BOTH sides. Why do the Tau OR Raven Guard still count them as a dependable ally? The Damocles Conflict wasn't a massive emergency enough for a Space Marine Chapter, especially one of such repute as the Raven Guard, to consort with xeno-heretics. If they switched multiple times, then how on earth did either force trust them? They might have wanted to help the Raven Guard, but I doubt the Raven Guard would accept it. They're traitors, after all.
3) Who are Captains Aladia and Gerthur? What's their history together, because I don't think that's explained.
Wait for it...
I am, yes.
Why Macragge, the home of the Ultramarines? And especially so, given the whole Rising Storm? Also, why Prospero? Wasn't it destroyed?
Thats the thing. Most of this backstory is based on campaigns Ive played, and one of the next ones will be on Soritarius, and the other will include Guilliman. Magnus is currently trying to rebuild Prospero, and has placed Soritarius in orbit of the same sun. Check the new galaxy map.
Guilliiman doesn't have to be on Macragge. He could be anywhere in that general region, and seeing as the Tau Empire is so close, it;s easily feasible.
Is Magnus rebuilding Prospero? I haven't read about that. Last I heard, the PLanet of the Sorcerers was headed for Terra, via Armaggeddon and Fenris. Not Prospero.
5) Why does Amaterasu go to T'au? His Chapter wasn't linked to the Tau when he was still Chapter Master, because Ravanalla was the new CM.
You missed this:
Ex-Chapter Master Amaterasu, and Althan Brightheart
Althan Brightheart is their chief librarian, and since the deaths of their chaplains, who were all on one of the ships that didn't make it, has been acting as their battle priest, albeit combining the ideals of the greater good with the ancient Imperial Truth. He most likely brought Amaterasu to T'au to either convert him or dispose of him.
Ah, I had no idea who Brightheart was.
Still, how did Brightheart find Amaterasu? Would Amaterasu accept that his Chapter had become xeno-heretics?
Time and distance are big issues here. Aladia gets from Terra to Macragge in the same year.
Webway. I forgot to mention that. The Shadow's Hunters IV company (the last "full" company) found a webway portal on T'gris. That was why the Chaos forces where there, and how Shadow's Hunters are able to move so quickly and disappear so fast. Again, part of a campaign i played
The Webway's a VERY dangerous place. I wouldn't be surprised if what was left of the fourth company took some heavy losses in there, due to how dangerous it is. Also, more ammunition for the "xeno-heretics" argument.
Shadow Hunters are seen in the Damocles Gulf, Cadia, Terra, Macragge? Too far spread, IMO.
All individual war bands, some of only a few marines. They all do their own thing now, as evident by the fact the Shadow's Hunters fought on both sides of the Damocles Gulf.
So how do they communicate? Do they not? How do they recruit and resupply, now being decentralised?
EDIT: Looking at what you said about them fighting on both sides of the Gulf, does that imply that some warbands fought for the Imperials (already addressed as unlikely), but other fought for the Tau? Does that mean that there's a chance that Shadow Warriors would have fought eachother?
They're too widespread, and really have no reason to be on Cadia if they are Tau loyalists, and would be killed on Terra.
They haven't been on Terra in the past thousand years. Alladia exited NEAR Terra, but most likely somewhere quite far from it.
You said he's NEAR, yet also FAR - which one is it? It specifically says, NEAR Terra. An unexpected Warp exit NEAR Terra would be enough to prompt an investigation, and they'd find a Space Marine from a Chapter noted for being xeno-heretics. Probably wouldn't work well for Aladia. And again, going from NEAR Terra, to Macragge, and then heading to Prospero in the space of one year? That's very short.
ARMORY Galenus Sirena, Master of the Arsenal - DEAD
3 Techmarines 28 Techservitors
3 Predetors 2 Vindecators 3 Whirlwinds 1 Land Raiders
APOTECARIUM Agran He'nan, high apothecarius. -DEAD
5 Apothecarii
LIBARIUM Althan Brightheart, Scriptor Magister -MIA
1 Epistolarius 4 Codier 1 Lexicanus 3 Acolytes
FLEET 3 Attack Cruisers 1 Battleship (The Last Kiss of the Dawn Knight) 22 Thunderhawks
1st Company
Captain Al'tan -DEAD Defender of T'gris
17 Veterans 1 Dreadnaught -DEAD
2nd Company -COMPLETELY DESTROYED
3rd Company (dammed company)
Captain Gethur Soulfist, - MIA the Fallen
4 Marines
4th Company
Captain Aladia, Commander of the Fleet
2 ten man Tactical Squads 4 five man Tactical Squads 4 Assault Squads 2 Devastator Squads
3 Dreadnaughts
5th Company
Captain Arax, -MIA the Everburning
15 Marines
1 Dreadnaught
6th Company
Captain To'van
47 Marines 8 Dreadnaughts
7th Company -STATUS UNKNOWN, PRESUMABLY DESTROYED
Captain Urazan
2 ten man Tactical Squads 4 five man Tactical Squads 4 Assault Squads 2 Devastator Squads
1 Dreadnaught
9th Company
Captain Gunai- DEAD
5 Marines
10th Company
Captain Locaha -DEAD
Scout troops
Good sizes, maybe a little scant on the vehicle front.
Still, a few things that caught my eye: No reserve companies? Traditionally, the 6-9 companies are Reserve Companies, consisting of only Tactical Marines/Assault Marines/Devastators, etc etc. Is this not a thing, and if so, why?
The odd Tactical Squad organisation: Essentially, it's a normal Battle Company, which is solid, but they exchange two Tactical Squads for two Assault Squad, and split two of the normally ten man Tactical Squads into permanent 5 man teams, giving them the same amount of men as a normal Battle Company, but two more Sergeants? Why is this? Tactical Squads regularly form combat squads, without needing to make it permanent. Also, as per progression, if the Chapter had non-standard organisation due to lack of recruits, they'd have more Devastators, not Assault Marines, because Assault Marines are more experienced than Devastators. The organisation is fine, but it's not really explained as to why it is what it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 11:12:56
They/them
2017/04/29 20:09:03
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
A) I'm fairly sure the castration thing isn't actually a habit. The only source I'm aware for that would be Dawn of War: Dark Crusade in a non-canon ending, and every other source suggests the Tau Empire treats its human fairly well (albeit without granting them much in the way of freedom or power).
IF it happens, it happens rarely.
B) Humans organized for war may well have picked up a bit on Tau Culture and/or had Tau Culture imposed upon them... particularly Fire Caste culture, in which training for war begins very early and never ends.
They wouldn't be used for actual war yet (barring near-impossible levels of necessity), but they'd be trained in how to handle combat, how to use weapons, and their physical abilities would be tested and honed.
There'd be "Gue'vesa" in-training, in that case, that could qualify for Astartes creation purposes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 20:09:30
2017/04/29 20:41:36
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
A) I'm fairly sure the castration thing isn't actually a habit. The only source I'm aware for that would be Dawn of War: Dark Crusade in a non-canon ending, and every other source suggests the Tau Empire treats its human fairly well (albeit without granting them much in the way of freedom or power).
IF it happens, it happens rarely.
B) Humans organized for war may well have picked up a bit on Tau Culture and/or had Tau Culture imposed upon them... particularly Fire Caste culture, in which training for war begins very early and never ends.
They wouldn't be used for actual war yet (barring near-impossible levels of necessity), but they'd be trained in how to handle combat, how to use weapons, and their physical abilities would be tested and honed.
There'd be "Gue'vesa" in-training, in that case, that could qualify for Astartes creation purposes.
I guess you could see it that way. I would treat them like I would Guardsmen. Yes, children are trained young to be in the Imperial Guard, but they're not Guardsmen until they mature. That's what I'm seeing for the Gue'vesa - they might be trained (just like the recruit guardsmen), but they're not strictly Gue'vesa, as far as I see it.
Still, semantics - they're humans born into the Tau Empire as soldiers.
They/them
2017/04/29 23:57:31
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
A) I'm fairly sure the castration thing isn't actually a habit. The only source I'm aware for that would be Dawn of War: Dark Crusade in a non-canon ending, and every other source suggests the Tau Empire treats its human fairly well (albeit without granting them much in the way of freedom or power).
IF it happens, it happens rarely.
B) Humans organized for war may well have picked up a bit on Tau Culture and/or had Tau Culture imposed upon them... particularly Fire Caste culture, in which training for war begins very early and never ends.
They wouldn't be used for actual war yet (barring near-impossible levels of necessity), but they'd be trained in how to handle combat, how to use weapons, and their physical abilities would be tested and honed.
There'd be "Gue'vesa" in-training, in that case, that could qualify for Astartes creation purposes.
I guess you could see it that way. I would treat them like I would Guardsmen. Yes, children are trained young to be in the Imperial Guard, but they're not Guardsmen until they mature. That's what I'm seeing for the Gue'vesa - they might be trained (just like the recruit guardsmen), but they're not strictly Gue'vesa, as far as I see it.
Still, semantics - they're humans born into the Tau Empire as soldiers.
Is there a strict definition for Gue'vesa? There'd need to be one for something to be, or fail to be, "strictly" that thing.
But yeah, its mostly semantics. The point of this post if to help guide OP in putting together as good a story/background as possible, neh?
2017/05/01 12:01:41
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
A) I'm fairly sure the castration thing isn't actually a habit. The only source I'm aware for that would be Dawn of War: Dark Crusade in a non-canon ending, and every other source suggests the Tau Empire treats its human fairly well (albeit without granting them much in the way of freedom or power).
IF it happens, it happens rarely.
B) Humans organized for war may well have picked up a bit on Tau Culture and/or had Tau Culture imposed upon them... particularly Fire Caste culture, in which training for war begins very early and never ends.
They wouldn't be used for actual war yet (barring near-impossible levels of necessity), but they'd be trained in how to handle combat, how to use weapons, and their physical abilities would be tested and honed.
There'd be "Gue'vesa" in-training, in that case, that could qualify for Astartes creation purposes.
I guess you could see it that way. I would treat them like I would Guardsmen. Yes, children are trained young to be in the Imperial Guard, but they're not Guardsmen until they mature. That's what I'm seeing for the Gue'vesa - they might be trained (just like the recruit guardsmen), but they're not strictly Gue'vesa, as far as I see it.
Still, semantics - they're humans born into the Tau Empire as soldiers.
Is there a strict definition for Gue'vesa? There'd need to be one for something to be, or fail to be, "strictly" that thing.
Well, do you deem a 12 year old Cadian child to be a Guardsman? They might be destined for Gue'vesa/Guardsman in the future, but at the current moment, I don't see them as a soldier yet, so therefore can be neither Gue'vesa or Guardsman.
Still, semantics.
But yeah, its mostly semantics. The point of this post if to help guide OP in putting together as good a story/background as possible, neh?
Absolutely.
They/them
2017/05/01 15:09:12
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
1) They probably won't recruit Gue'vesa. Still need to only take from pre-teen children.
Even though the Tau have a habit of castrating their humans, sometimes they need certain humans to have children. Its quite a lot easier to brainwash children.
They're still not Gue'vesa necessarily - humans in the Tau Empire aren't necessarily Gue'vesa. I know what you mean, but a human child is still a human child, and is THEN recruited into the Gue'vesa when appropriate.
A) I'm fairly sure the castration thing isn't actually a habit. The only source I'm aware for that would be Dawn of War: Dark Crusade in a non-canon ending, and every other source suggests the Tau Empire treats its human fairly well (albeit without granting them much in the way of freedom or power).
IF it happens, it happens rarely.
B) Humans organized for war may well have picked up a bit on Tau Culture and/or had Tau Culture imposed upon them... particularly Fire Caste culture, in which training for war begins very early and never ends.
They wouldn't be used for actual war yet (barring near-impossible levels of necessity), but they'd be trained in how to handle combat, how to use weapons, and their physical abilities would be tested and honed.
There'd be "Gue'vesa" in-training, in that case, that could qualify for Astartes creation purposes.
I guess you could see it that way. I would treat them like I would Guardsmen. Yes, children are trained young to be in the Imperial Guard, but they're not Guardsmen until they mature. That's what I'm seeing for the Gue'vesa - they might be trained (just like the recruit guardsmen), but they're not strictly Gue'vesa, as far as I see it.
Still, semantics - they're humans born into the Tau Empire as soldiers.
Is there a strict definition for Gue'vesa? There'd need to be one for something to be, or fail to be, "strictly" that thing.
Well, do you deem a 12 year old Cadian child to be a Guardsman? They might be destined for Gue'vesa/Guardsman in the future, but at the current moment, I don't see them as a soldier yet, so therefore can be neither Gue'vesa or Guardsman.
Still, semantics.
But yeah, its mostly semantics. The point of this post if to help guide OP in putting together as good a story/background as possible, neh?
Absolutely.
[/spoiler]
Actually, Gue'vesa refers to each and every human member of the Tau Empire. Gue'vesa just means Human Helpers.
EmberlordofFire8 wrote: Actually, Gue'vesa refers to each and every human member of the Tau Empire. Gue'vesa just means Human Helpers.
Fair enough then - I usually see Gue'vesa as synonymous with the military, not generally all humans in the Empire. I thought they were still classed as just humans.
Also, would it be possible to address some of the points I made up above?
They/them
2017/05/02 15:32:37
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
For starters, having your Space Marine chapter be openly allied with the Tau is a fatal flaw. As soon as the Imperium got wind, they would invest resources they probably couldn't spare in making sure the chapter was swiftly and irrevocably crushed.
Also, you're making the mistake of buying into the idea that the Tau are the good guys of the 40K setting. The Tau aren't good guys. They're bad guys with good PR. They enslave entire alien races and use them as cannon fodder. They're not any nicer than the Imperium, they're just not quite as xenophobic. Space Marine senior commanders - especially psychic Space Marine senior commanders, would see their vague Greater Good rhetoric for the empty drivel it is.
You could have a chapter that, when circumstances warrant, is willing to work alongside Tau to achieve mutual goals, but the relationship would have to be a whole lot more tenuous than your backstory, which amounts to "You guys are Good Guys, and we guys are Good Guys, so let's all be Good Guys together!" It could start with elements of the two factions finding themselves fighting a mutual foe - Tyranids or Orks, say. After the fighting dies down, you can be left with surviving elements of your chapter and Tau forces who mutually decide enough is enough for one day, and withdraw instead of engaging a new foe, their forces being depleted and all. You could then have that pattern repeat and reinforce itself - not to the point of a full-blown alliance, which is ludicrous, but you could get away with your chapter refusing to engage Tau forces who aren't directly threatening Imperial interests, and the Tau coming to recognize that, when they detect elements of your chapter, that it's worth their time to parlay before anybody starts shooting, particularly while there are mutual foes around to fight. They wouldn't fight side-by-side except under the most dire of circumstances, but they might coordinate their efforts.
Note - even that would be pretty heretical, but doesn't cross the line to unacceptably so. At least, some Inquisitors would give your chapter a pass for it.
It'd help to work in an allied Inquisitor to go to bat for your chapter. That said, there's no Inquisitor who would go to bat for a chapter that completely switched sides the way your current fluff relates.
That's just the tip of a doozy of an iceberg. Here's a list of the egregiously unlikely events in your backstory that jumped out at me.
1: The Iron Hands wiping out an IG battalion just cause. Mind you, I think the Iron Hands are possibly the jerkiest of the loyalist chapters. That said, you think they could just ask the IG battalion to move somewhere else.
2: The entire chapter losing their poop and fleeing their duty at the Eye of Terror because one of their captains killed a single Iron Hand. That's barely worth the two chapters raising their voices to each other, much less one fleeing like Scooby Doo from a guy in a rubber mask.
3: That convenient warp storm.
4: Not a single ship in the fleet being capable of warp travel. Did all the techmarines die too? One would think they'd be able to cobble together one working ship by cannibalizing the rest. Or at least get out a signal to the Imperium for rescue. If any Librarians survived, that should have been doable.
5: The massive Chaos attack on some obscure, remote planet practically all the way across the galaxy from the Eye of Terror.
6: While the Tau may have had some success in converting human populations to their dogma, there is not one instance in official backstory where they've had the same kind of success with Space Marines, as they're too heavily indoctrinated for that nonsense. It would be much more sensible for a Tau commander to, upon discovering Space Marines fighting Space Marines, to attack both sides while they are distracted and not expecting another major threat to emerge. Space Marines are the fanatical lunatics who fight to grim death - a competent Tau commander wouldn't take chances on the unprecedented possibility some of them might be open to parlay.
7: Space Marines falling for the Tau's vague "For the Greater Good!" propaganda is unlikely enough. Every single member of the chapter swallowing it is a virtual impossibility. You're telling me not one Captain or Librarian said, "Hey, wait a minute!" Seriously, the chapter's senior officers would be the most indoctrinated in Imperial and Chapter creed and be least likely to be swayed, not bro-fist some smug aliens just because they killed a few Chaos cultists.
8: None of the Chaplains surviving, the crash, and the Chapter not appointing new ones. According to your own fluff, at least 150 years passed between the chapter being marooned and the most random Chaos incursion ever. And note: the Chaplains wouldn't all be on one ship. Each company would have its own chaplain, who would be on board a ship belonging to their assigned company. Plus there'd be a master Chaplain over the entire chapter who would be on the same ship as the Chapter Master and master Librarian.
9: The ancient heroes of the chapter interred in Dreadnoughts not having anything critical to say about the state of affairs.
10: If you've got members of the chapter running around fighting on both sides of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, then nobody would accept them as allies.
11: Given how heretical the chapter is, there is no way they'd be let anywhere near Cadia, Macragge, or Terra.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
13: Raven Guard Legionnaires turning up with them.
14: Raven Guard Legionnaires willingly fighting with anybody who openly allied with aliens. The Great Crusade was all about wiping out aliens.
15: Your Chapter Master getting collected by Trayzn the Infinite.
16: Your Chapter Master getting released by Trayzn the Infinite for reasons.
You'd have difficulty getting away with any of these events in an acceptable backstory. Lumping all these ridiculously improbable events into one backstory just makes it ludicrous. It makes them the Mary Sueziest of Mary Sues.
My advice would be, instead of trying to make your backstory fit your campaign, come up with a reasonable backstory and make your campaign fit that. Your chapter could have up to 9000+ years of history. All the most important events in it don't have to have been represented by what's happened on the tabletop. You could establish a history of a chapter that focuses on fighting Chaos and is willing to give xenos a pass if they A: also fight Chaos and B: get out of Dodge instead of engaging Imperial forces. This could be justified as not pro-xenos leaning, but rather a desire to preserve their resources to fight Chaos. It would also make the rough working relationship I suggested with the Tau more likely.
Also, you don't have to have elements of your chapter involved in every event listed in a GW publication. It's a big galaxy. There are other theaters of war to fight in. That said, get rid of the whole "We're allies with the Tau" nonsense, and you can integrate your chapter into the main story more seamlessly.
Well, the whole reason I made the chapter is because I wanted to experiment with the Tau's whole propaganda thing. How sad is it that space Marines, the greatest humans out there, have been corrupted by Xenos.
Mind you, I just read you're arguments, and most of them have been resolved already. In case you missed it, here are some answers:
For starters, having your Space Marine chapter be openly allied with the Tau is a fatal flaw. As soon as the Imperium got wind, they would invest resources they probably couldn't spare in making sure the chapter was swiftly and irrevocably crushed.
Didnt know the chapter exists, tried to investigate, failed.
Also, you're making the mistake of buying into the idea that the Tau are the good guys of the 40K setting. The Tau aren't good guys. They're bad guys with good PR. They enslave entire alien races and use them as cannon fodder. They're not any nicer than the Imperium, they're just not quite as xenophobic. Space Marine senior commanders - especially psychic Space Marine senior commanders, would see their vague Greater Good rhetoric for the empty drivel it is.
You could have a chapter that, when circumstances warrant, is willing to work alongside Tau to achieve mutual goals, but the relationship would have to be a whole lot more tenuous than your backstory, which amounts to "You guys are Good Guys, and we guys are Good Guys, so let's all be Good Guys together!" It could start with elements of the two factions finding themselves fighting a mutual foe - Tyranids or Orks, say. After the fighting dies down, you can be left with surviving elements of your chapter and Tau forces who mutually decide enough is enough for one day, and withdraw instead of engaging a new foe, their forces being depleted and all. You could then have that pattern repeat and reinforce itself - not to the point of a full-blown alliance, which is ludicrous, but you could get away with your chapter refusing to engage Tau forces who aren't directly threatening Imperial interests, and the Tau coming to recognize that, when they detect elements of your chapter, that it's worth their time to parlay before anybody starts shooting, particularly while there are mutual foes around to fight. They wouldn't fight side-by-side except under the most dire of circumstances, but they might coordinate their efforts.
Note - even that would be pretty heretical, but doesn't cross the line to unacceptably so. At least, some Inquisitors would give your chapter a pass for it.
It'd help to work in an allied Inquisitor to go to bat for your chapter. That said, there's no Inquisitor who would go to bat for a chapter that completely switched sides the way your current fluff relates.
Have an allied inquisitor. Well, a captured and brainwashed one, but one none the less.
1: The Iron Hands wiping out an IG battalion just cause. Mind you, I think the Iron Hands are possibly the jerkiest of the loyalist chapters. That said, you think they could just ask the IG battalion to move somewhere else.
Read the fluff. IG are worthless, and whenever someone suspects Daemonic presence they start killing. Which I completely agree with
2: The entire chapter losing their poop and fleeing their duty at the Eye of Terror because one of their captains killed a single Iron Hand. That's barely worth the two chapters raising their voices to each other, much less one fleeing like Scooby Doo from a guy in a rubber mask.
Not just one marine. Several, and THEY decided to go on crusade to pay for ALL their "sins".
3: That convenient warp storm.
Because warp storms never happen.
4: Not a single ship in the fleet being capable of warp travel. Did all the techmarines die too? One would think they'd be able to cobble together one working ship by cannibalizing the rest. Or at least get out a signal to the Imperium for rescue. If any Librarians survived, that should have been doable.
No, T'Gris has strange magnetic fields that prevent vox signals.
5: The massive Chaos attack on some obscure, remote planet practically all the way across the galaxy from the Eye of Terror
Not all CSM are in the Eye . Also, there is a large and fairly unstable portal on T'Gris, that they could use to get to the Eye.
6: While the Tau may have had some success in converting human populations to their dogma, there is not one instance in official backstory where they've had the same kind of success with Space Marines, as they're too heavily indoctrinated for that nonsense. It would be much more sensible for a Tau commander to, upon discovering Space Marines fighting Space Marines, to attack both sides while they are distracted and not expecting another major threat to emerge. Space Marines are the fanatical lunatics who fight to grim death - a competent Tau commander wouldn't take chances on the unprecedented possibility some of them might be open to parlay.
That's why I made it. Its a "what if" scenario.
7: Space Marines falling for the Tau's vague "For the Greater Good!" propaganda is unlikely enough. Every single member of the chapter swallowing it is a virtual impossibility. You're telling me not one Captain or Librarian said, "Hey, wait a minute!" Seriously, the chapter's senior officers would be the most indoctrinated in Imperial and Chapter creed and be least likely to be swayed, not bro-fist some smug aliens just because they killed a few Chaos cultists.
No doubt some did voice their opinion. All I know is that now those voices don't exist.
8: None of the Chaplains surviving, the crash, and the Chapter not appointing new ones. According to your own fluff, at least 150 years passed between the chapter being marooned and the most random Chaos incursion ever. And note: the Chaplains wouldn't all be on one ship. Each company would have its own chaplain, who would be on board a ship belonging to their assigned company. Plus there'd be a master Chaplain over the entire chapter who would be on the same ship as the Chapter Master and master Librarian.
Chapters typically have a main shrine on board one of their ships. Chaplains will gather there often. Well, if that ship didn't make it, nor did the chaplains.
9: The ancient heroes of the chapter interred in Dreadnoughts not having anything critical to say about the state of affairs.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
10: If you've got members of the chapter running around fighting on both sides of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, then nobody would accept them as allies.
Who said they do?
11: Given how heretical the chapter is, there is no way they'd be let anywhere near Cadia, Macragge, or Terra.
They are officially "destroyed" in Imperial records. Plus no-one knows they're heretics.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
Yep.
13: Raven Guard Legionnaires turning up with them.
Yep. Quite a few RG entered the warp after the Battle for Terra. They turn up from time to time.
14: Raven Guard Legionnaires willingly fighting with anybody who openly allied with aliens. The Great Crusade was all about wiping out aliens.
They. Don't. Know. Anything.
15: Your Chapter Master getting collected by Trayzn the Infinite.
Yep. That's what Trayzn doesz
16: Your Chapter Master getting released by Trayzn the Infinite for reasons.
There's a great book called The Fall of Cadia. Read it.
You'd have difficulty getting away with any of these events in an acceptable backstory. Lumping all these ridiculously improbable events into one backstory just makes it ludicrous. It makes them the Mary Sueziest of Mary Sues.
Didnt know the chapter exists, tried to investigate, failed.
That directly contradicts your own fluff, which stated that an Inquisitorial/IG/Deathwatch force fought and scattered your chapter over their allegiance to the Tau.
Have an allied inquisitor. Well, a captured and brainwashed one, but one none the less.
Doesn't work. The Inquisition is full of psykers, and they're such a paranoid institution they're constantly monitoring each other. An Inquisitor going to bat for a Space Marine chapter openly allied with any alien species would become immediately suspect.
Read the fluff. IG are worthless, and whenever someone suspects Daemonic presence they start killing. Which I completely agree with
And yet your chapter got so bent out of shape about it they came to blows with the Iron Hands.
Not just one marine. Several, and THEY decided to go on crusade to pay for ALL their "sins".
A: Would barely rate an eyeblink, and B: Leaving off their duty to guard Cadia would be a serious dereliction of duty.
Because warp storms never happen.
If it was the only unlikely occurrence, I'd have not mentioned it. However, your backstory is too full of implausible occurrences to get a pass on it.
No, T'Gris has strange magnetic fields that prevent vox signals.
Magnetic fields don't interfere with psychic signalling, which is the Imperium's primary means of interstellar communication. Your timeline has at least one Librarian in it, so someone was around to cast the signal.
Not all CSM are in the Eye . Also, there is a large and fairly unstable portal on T'Gris, that they could use to get to the Eye.
It's not so much Chaos forces being away from the Eye as it is them deciding to launch a massive attack some insignificant isolated rock so far away from where the main action is.
That's why I made it. Its a "what if" scenario.
The point is, there's no room for that particular "what if". It wouldn't happen, period.
No doubt some did voice their opinion. All I know is that now those voices don't exist.
The implication that some of your chapter's senior officers eliminating other of your chapter's senior officers after a brief conversation with the Tau about the Greater Good (which they should see through like Saran Wrap anyway) just makes it more stupid, not less. The idea that some of your chapter's captains and librarians would be willing to kill others of their number, battle brothers they've fought alongside for decades if not centuries, in order to follow painfully transparent alien dogma (or stand aside and let the aliens do it) is simply farcical.
Chapters typically have a main shrine on board one of their ships. Chaplains will gather there often. Well, if that ship didn't make it, nor did the chaplains.
The problem with that logic is the main shrine would most likely be in the fleet flagship, where the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian are. If those guys survived, then so should at least some of the chaplains.
Plus, you didn't address my point about 150 years passing without appointing new chaplains, which should have been done right away. Even if a sergeant had to step up and take control of the chapter, one of the first things he'd do is make sure there was somebody to tend to the his battle brother's spiritual well being.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
As above regarding siding with aliens over trusted battle brothers, only even more so considering the reverence chapters assign their Dreadnoughts.
Who said they do?
Are you trolling? You did, in multiple places, stating that your chapter allied with both the Tau and the Raven Guard.
They are officially "destroyed" in Imperial records. Plus no-one knows they're heretics.
The Inquisition and the Deathwatch know they're heretics, again as per your own fluff.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
Yep.
No one uses the webway but the Eldar and the massively psychic Thousand Sons.
Yep. Quite a few RG entered the warp after the Battle for Terra. They turn up from time to time.
Again, could maybe be overlooked in and of itself, but can't be ignored given the full weight of improbabilities in your backstory.
They. Don't. Know. Anything.
Maybe when they come out of wherever they were, but it wouldn't take them long to figure out how heretical your chapter is.
Yep. That's what Trayzn doesz
Again, by itself, okay. With all the other silly shenanigans going on, it furthers the reader's incredulity.
There's a great book called The Fall of Cadia. Read it.
Read it. Only one named character came out of it, and it wasn't your chapter master. Having your chapter master turn up at such a singular event kind of smacks of that guy who wants his character to be involved in everything cool happening, no matter how improbable it is for him to turn up at all the places where they are happening. Plus, it opens up at least one other can of worms - how he got from that warzone to wherever the heck he turned up.
Didnt know the chapter exists, tried to investigate, failed.
That directly contradicts your own fluff, which stated that an Inquisitorial/IG/Deathwatch force fought and scattered your chapter over their allegiance to the Tau.
Yes. And if you read the rest of the fluff, you would have read about a Tau fleet destroying the remaining invaders. It was only a small Inquisition forces, they were there to investigate.
Have an allied inquisitor. Well, a captured and brainwashed one, but one none the less.
Doesn't work. The Inquisition is full of psykers, and they're such a paranoid institution they're constantly monitoring each other. An Inquisitor going to bat for a Space Marine chapter openly allied with any alien species would become immediately suspect.
This Inquisitor is a psyker. He also has ABSOLUTELY. NO. IDEA. HE. IS. BEING. USED. Look at the vespids.
Read the fluff. IG are worthless, and whenever someone suspects Daemonic presence they start killing. Which I completely agree with
And yet your chapter got so bent out of shape about it they came to blows with the Iron Hands.
Yes. So did the space wolves, Raven Guard, salamanders, Emperor's Children, ultramarin es, Praetors of Orpheus and many others. Some space Marines care about humans.
Not just one marine. Several, and THEY decided to go on crusade to pay for ALL their "sins".
A: Would barely rate an eyeblink, and B: Leaving off their duty to guard Cadia would be a serious dereliction of duty.
They already felt they were failing, as many chapters from their founding either moved off the blockade or where destroyed. They felt they weren't doing enough for the Imperium.
Because warp storms never happen.
If it was the only unlikely occurrence, I'd have not mentioned it. However, your backstory is too full of implausible occurrences to get a pass on it.
That doesn't make sense.
No, T'Gris has strange magnetic fields that prevent vox signals.
Magnetic fields don't interfere with psychic signalling, which is the Imperium's primary means of interstellar communication. Your timeline has at least one Librarian in it, so someone was around to cast the signal.
Psychic signal are Echos in the warp. With a collapsing webway Portal on planet, it will be quite hard to get a signal across.
Not all CSM are in the Eye . Also, there is a large and fairly unstable portal on T'Gris, that they could use to get to the Eye.
It's not so much Chaos forces being away from the Eye as it is them deciding to launch a massive attack some insignificant isolated rock so far away from where the main action is.
Ok, I'll try again.
KAY-OSS HATEY POINTY EARED SPACE ELF SCUM! OHHH! LOOKEY! A POINTY EAR SPACE ELF SCUM BUILDED A WEBBYWAY POR-TALL! HWEE WEEL KAP-TOOR ET FOR KAAAAAAAY-OOOOoooooooooooos!
That's why I made it. Its a "what if" scenario.
The point is, there's no room for that particular "what if". It wouldn't happen, period.
I really hope I never need to play against you. Its. A. Game. With. Toy. Soldiers.
No doubt some did voice their opinion. All I know is that now those voices don't exist.
The implication that some of your chapter's senior officers eliminating other of your chapter's senior officers after a brief conversation with the Tau about the Greater Good (which they should see through like Saran Wrap anyway) just makes it more stupid, not less. The idea that some of your chapter's captains and librarians would be willing to kill others of their number, battle brothers they've fought alongside for decades if not centuries, in order to follow painfully transparent alien dogma (or stand aside and let the aliens do it) is simply farcical.
Check out literally every single successful revolution ever. People will stab their allies if they think its right and not bat an eye.
Chapters typically have a main shrine on board one of their ships. Chaplains will gather there often. Well, if that ship didn't make it, nor did the chaplains.
The problem with that logic is the main shrine would most likely be in the fleet flagship, where the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian are. If those guys survived, then so should at least some of the chaplains.
Plus, you didn't address my point about 150 years passing without appointing new chaplains, which should have been done right away. Even if a sergeant had to step up and take control of the chapter, one of the first things he'd do is make sure there was somebody to tend to the his battle brother's spiritual well being.
Yes yes and yes. Flagship crashed. New Chapter Master was appointed. But due to their predicament they decided their own lives were more important.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
As above regarding siding with aliens over trusted battle brothers, only even more so considering the reverence chapters assign their Dreadnoughts.
Doesn't. Matter. The. New. Ways. Are. Better.
Look at the Christian reformation. Almost every saint's icon was removed from churches. That's how you change people mind. Give them no alternative.
Who said they do?
Are you trolling? You did, in multiple places, stating that your chapter allied with both the Tau and the Raven Guard.
I said they fought on both sides. They're RG successors, after all. Stealth is their nature. And I doubt there were enough Marines on either side for the other to noticed. Also, its not unheard of for half a chapter to turn traitor while the other one hunts it down. Look at istvann III.
They are officially "destroyed" in Imperial records. Plus no-one knows they're heretics.
The Inquisition and the Deathwatch know they're heretics, again as per your own fluff.
A FEW members of the Ordo Xenos KNEW about them. Then they either died, were captured or had their memories wiped, something that the Tau do quite well.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
Yep.
No one uses the webway but the Eldar and the massively psychic Thousand Sons.
Experimental technology. Emergency. You'll try anything to not die.
Yep. Quite a few RG entered the warp after the Battle for Terra. They turn up from time to time.
Again, could maybe be overlooked in and of itself, but can't be ignored given the full weight of improbabilities in your backstory.
Still doesn't make any sense.
They. Don't. Know. Anything.
Maybe when they come out of wherever they were, but it wouldn't take them long to figure out how heretical your chapter is.
There are less than 500 of them left. In the INTIRE GALAXY.
Yep. That's what Trayzn doesz
Again, by itself, okay. With all the other silly shenanigans going on, it furthers the reader's incredulity.
Hmm?
There's a great book called The Fall of Cadia. Read it.
Read it. Only one named character came out of it, and it wasn't your chapter master. Having your chapter master turn up at such a singular event kind of smacks of that guy who wants his character to be involved in everything cool happening, no matter how improbable it is for him to turn up at all the places where they are happening. Plus, it opens up at least one other can of worms - how he got from that warzone to wherever the heck he turned up.
Oh, throne. MORE THAN INTIRE ARMY TURNED UP! YOU THINK THEY DIDNT ALL HAVE NAMES?!
Thanks.
It wasn't a compliment.
I know. Try giving some constructive feedback for once, instead of just insulting my work. Seriously, its a game. We play to have fun.
Exactly. They're traitors to BOTH sides. Why do the Tau OR Raven Guard still count them as a dependable ally? The Damocles Conflict wasn't a massive emergency enough for a Space Marine Chapter, especially one of such repute as the Raven Guard, to consort with xeno-heretics. If they switched multiple times, then how on earth did either force trust them?
They might have wanted to help the Raven Guard, but I doubt the Raven Guard would accept it. They're traitors, after all.
Here's the thing: most of the Imperium has no idea Shadow's Hunters exists. Well, they know they exist, but they don't know anything about their training doctrines or homeworld. Inquisitor Catus and his soldiers were the only ones to set foot there, and they were defeated by the Tau (After they destroyed T'Gris) and because of T'Gris's odd electromagnetic field (due to the webway portal there) no vox signal made it to other imperial forces. Although Catus survived, he is currently being held hostage by Ra'van Al'la.
How can the Imperium not know they exist? They're a Space Marine Chapter, one which clearly knows their heritage (and would be known thus), has history with the Iron Hands, and if they know they exist, one would know their homeworld, and keep tabs on them. Chapter don't go missing for long, unless they literally vanish from reality (see the Fire Hawks). Not to mention you outright say in your timeline that they are spotted and recategorised AFTER they settle on T'gris.
There's no way this Chapter wouldn't be known about.
Inquisitors aren't stupid, and Deathwatch Kill Teams neither. If a Kill Team or Inquisitor with the repute to requisition one went missing, after recording a mission (because they're not stupid), then I can assure you that retaliation would be taken. Even if there's no vox (and if there is none, how does the Chapter even communicate over long distances?). You can't keep on living normally once the Inquisition tag you. You submit to them, or you are driven out of the Imperium. See the Astral Claws. They killed an investigation team, and that started the Badab Wars.
Guilliiman doesn't have to be on Macragge. He could be anywhere in that general region, and seeing as the Tau Empire is so close, it;s easily feasible.
Is Magnus rebuilding Prospero? I haven't read about that. Last I heard, the PLanet of the Sorcerers was headed for Terra, via Armaggeddon and Fenris. Not Prospero.
Yes, but he will inevitably return to Ultramar, and it was closer to T'Gris than Terra was (Gerthur didn't flee to the webway after T'Gris, and Aladia decided to head to Macragge after Guilimans return, with his new found allies)
Fair. Still, if the Chapter is unknown, then why would Guilliman accept them? If they are known, which is more likely, then they'd be killed as heretics.
Still, how did Brightheart find Amaterasu? Would Amaterasu accept that his Chapter had become xeno-heretics?
Brightheart was on Cadia, and Amaterasu will most likely NOT accept it. I'll have to let the dice decide
So ONLY Amaterasu has any qualms against the Tau? No-one else in the entire Chapter?
The Webway's a VERY dangerous place. I wouldn't be surprised if what was left of the fourth company took some heavy losses in there, due to how dangerous it is.
Also, more ammunition for the "xeno-heretics" argument.
You are correct.
You know that the Webway is ONLY used by Eldar and the super-psychic Thousand Sons, because of that? It's practically impossible to navigate the Webway.
So how do they communicate? Do they not? How do they recruit and resupply, now being decentralised?
Brightheart, Aladia and Ra'van Al'la (the commanders of the "true" chapter) have experimental Tau devices that use the webway to communicate. VERY dangerous and very unreliable, but its the only way to communicate. Other than that not much communication doesn't happen to much. The 1st and 4th still recruit some aspirants from world they conquer (they are essentially a fleet based chapter) and Brightheart is on T'au recruiting more marines to rebuild the chapter (he thinks the 4th and 1st are the last Shadow's Hunters), but other than that the other war bands resupply by scavenging battlefields, and sometimes let survivors of other battles (not only Marines) join them.
How do the TAU, a race unable to understand the Warp, let alone the Webway, have Webway communication devices?
EDIT: Looking at what you said about them fighting on both sides of the Gulf, does that imply that some warbands fought for the Imperials (already addressed as unlikely), but other fought for the Tau? Does that mean that there's a chance that Shadow Warriors would have fought eachother?
Yes. There most defiantly was fighting between war bands, although not as much as you would think (more of friendly arguments that escalated than all-out killing). Most of us are still loyal to the Imperium AND the Empire.
How can you have a friendly argument when you're actively fighting on both sides?! That's like an American soldier in Nato and an American in ISIS meeting on the battlefield and laughing it all off.
And again - the Tau aren't stupid. If they saw Marines still fighting against them, they would not accept them as allies. The Imperium already would see your guys as heretics.
Furthermore, it is impossible to serve the Empire and the Imperium.
No reserve companies? Traditionally, the 6-9 companies are Reserve Companies, consisting of only Tactical Marines/Assault Marines/Devastators, etc etc. Is this not a thing, and if so, why?
Well the 5-9th are reserves, but are built up as normal battle companies. It allows them to deploy normally in emergencies, and function as battle companies if needed.
If the Reserve Companies are built in the same way as Battle Companies, what makes them a Reserve Company? Normally, a Reserve Company consists of one type of squad or specialisation (all Bikers, all Assault, all Devastator), but that's not like yours at all? Why are they Reserves at all?
The odd Tactical Squad organisation: Essentially, it's a normal Battle Company, which is solid, but they exchange two Tactical Squads for two Assault Squad, and split two of the normally ten man Tactical Squads into permanent 5 man teams, giving them the same amount of men as a normal Battle Company, but two more Sergeants? Why is this? Tactical Squads regularly form combat squads, without needing to make it permanent. Also, as per progression, if the Chapter had non-standard organisation due to lack of recruits, they'd have more Devastators, not Assault Marines, because Assault Marines are more experienced than Devastators.
The organisation is fine, but it's not really explained as to why it is what it is.
A surplus of Veterans and a lack of heavy weapons, mostly. The 5man squads are lead by vets, to train new recruits. After becoming a scout, marines are inducted into a 5-man squad, then either a regular tactical squad OR an assault squad. We have lots of jump packs because anti-grab technology is easy for the Tau (So they aren't all traditional jump packs), but Imperial heavy weapons are still hard to produce.
If they have a lack of heavy weapons, then how do they have just as many Devastators?
Going Scout -----> Tactical isn't followed at all. Tactical Marines are actually very elite, they've been trained in Assault and Devastator Squads first, and even in those Devastator Squads, they only wield bolters. Tactical is the last stage for a reason, because of the massive tactical flexibility they require.
If the 5 man squads are to train, then isn't that the point of Scouts? You train first as a Scout, then as a Devastator (only wielding a bolter), and then progress into Assault, then Tactical. Your approach works, but instead of having two separate 5 man squads, you should have them put into the Devastators. There's no other reason for it, nothing that specifically says that your method is any different or needed.
Hope that clears a few things up.
Hope my comments help.
Ember justifying Tau Space Marines
Spoiler:
EmberlordofFire8 wrote:Well, the whole reason I made the chapter is because I wanted to experiment with the Tau's whole propaganda thing. How sad is it that space Marines, the greatest humans out there, have been corrupted by Xenos.
But that's not how it comes across. It comes across like your guys just decided "hey, let's be friends with these guys we're conditioned to hate!". The Tau have no control or corruption, your guys just seem very weak-willed.
Ember's response to Razial
Spoiler:
EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
For starters, having your Space Marine chapter be openly allied with the Tau is a fatal flaw. As soon as the Imperium got wind, they would invest resources they probably couldn't spare in making sure the chapter was swiftly and irrevocably crushed.
Didnt know the chapter exists, tried to investigate, failed.
Yes, and that would expose them. You don't just "cover up" an Inquisitorial investigation with Deathwatch. Not to mention you outright say the Imperium clocks them after they settle. Plus, if they weren't recognised, then no-one would let them fight alongside them.
Also, you're making the mistake of buying into the idea that the Tau are the good guys of the 40K setting. The Tau aren't good guys. They're bad guys with good PR. They enslave entire alien races and use them as cannon fodder. They're not any nicer than the Imperium, they're just not quite as xenophobic. Space Marine senior commanders - especially psychic Space Marine senior commanders, would see their vague Greater Good rhetoric for the empty drivel it is.
You could have a chapter that, when circumstances warrant, is willing to work alongside Tau to achieve mutual goals, but the relationship would have to be a whole lot more tenuous than your backstory, which amounts to "You guys are Good Guys, and we guys are Good Guys, so let's all be Good Guys together!" It could start with elements of the two factions finding themselves fighting a mutual foe - Tyranids or Orks, say. After the fighting dies down, you can be left with surviving elements of your chapter and Tau forces who mutually decide enough is enough for one day, and withdraw instead of engaging a new foe, their forces being depleted and all. You could then have that pattern repeat and reinforce itself - not to the point of a full-blown alliance, which is ludicrous, but you could get away with your chapter refusing to engage Tau forces who aren't directly threatening Imperial interests, and the Tau coming to recognize that, when they detect elements of your chapter, that it's worth their time to parlay before anybody starts shooting, particularly while there are mutual foes around to fight. They wouldn't fight side-by-side except under the most dire of circumstances, but they might coordinate their efforts.
Note - even that would be pretty heretical, but doesn't cross the line to unacceptably so. At least, some Inquisitors would give your chapter a pass for it.
It'd help to work in an allied Inquisitor to go to bat for your chapter. That said, there's no Inquisitor who would go to bat for a chapter that completely switched sides the way your current fluff relates.
Have an allied inquisitor. Well, a captured and brainwashed one, but one none the less.
So if they're brainwashed, how can they still function? How can't psykers check your Inquisitor for tampering? If your Inquisitor is being used, then your Chapter must be known about.
1: The Iron Hands wiping out an IG battalion just cause. Mind you, I think the Iron Hands are possibly the jerkiest of the loyalist chapters. That said, you think they could just ask the IG battalion to move somewhere else.
Read the fluff. IG are worthless, and whenever someone suspects Daemonic presence they start killing. Which I completely agree with
Not after SUSPECTING. After knowing, and having clear evidence. A Guardsman is worthless, but a whole Battalion? Not at all. An Inquisitor would need to sanction that, and if they do, then your guys have no standing.
2: The entire chapter losing their poop and fleeing their duty at the Eye of Terror because one of their captains killed a single Iron Hand. That's barely worth the two chapters raising their voices to each other, much less one fleeing like Scooby Doo from a guy in a rubber mask.
Not just one marine. Several, and THEY decided to go on crusade to pay for ALL their "sins".
You said they only killed a single Iron Hand. And they'd still need to clear their "crusade" with an Imperial authority.
3: That convenient warp storm.
Because warp storms never happen.
Hence "convenient". Nothing wrong with one alone, but alonside other Deus-Ex-Machinas?
4: Not a single ship in the fleet being capable of warp travel. Did all the techmarines die too? One would think they'd be able to cobble together one working ship by cannibalizing the rest. Or at least get out a signal to the Imperium for rescue. If any Librarians survived, that should have been doable.
No, T'Gris has strange magnetic fields that prevent vox signals.
So how did the Tau communicate with them? How did the Chapter communicate at all? And Astropathic signals are different to Vox. Their ability to send Astropathic ones should be unhindered. And they can still build ships.
5: The massive Chaos attack on some obscure, remote planet practically all the way across the galaxy from the Eye of Terror
Not all CSM are in the Eye . Also, there is a large and fairly unstable portal on T'Gris, that they could use to get to the Eye.
So there's a portal too? This world seems to have EVERYTHING on it. A Webway gate, a vox-nullifier, a Chaos Portal for some reason...
It's all very... convenient.
6: While the Tau may have had some success in converting human populations to their dogma, there is not one instance in official backstory where they've had the same kind of success with Space Marines, as they're too heavily indoctrinated for that nonsense. It would be much more sensible for a Tau commander to, upon discovering Space Marines fighting Space Marines, to attack both sides while they are distracted and not expecting another major threat to emerge. Space Marines are the fanatical lunatics who fight to grim death - a competent Tau commander wouldn't take chances on the unprecedented possibility some of them might be open to parlay.
That's why I made it. Its a "what if" scenario.
But this "What If" ignores what we know about the setting, really makes your SM out to be pretty weak minded if they crumble THAT easily.
7: Space Marines falling for the Tau's vague "For the Greater Good!" propaganda is unlikely enough. Every single member of the chapter swallowing it is a virtual impossibility. You're telling me not one Captain or Librarian said, "Hey, wait a minute!" Seriously, the chapter's senior officers would be the most indoctrinated in Imperial and Chapter creed and be least likely to be swayed, not bro-fist some smug aliens just because they killed a few Chaos cultists.
No doubt some did voice their opinion. All I know is that now those voices don't exist.
But why not? There should be far more dissidents.
8: None of the Chaplains surviving, the crash, and the Chapter not appointing new ones. According to your own fluff, at least 150 years passed between the chapter being marooned and the most random Chaos incursion ever. And note: the Chaplains wouldn't all be on one ship. Each company would have its own chaplain, who would be on board a ship belonging to their assigned company. Plus there'd be a master Chaplain over the entire chapter who would be on the same ship as the Chapter Master and master Librarian.
Chapters typically have a main shrine on board one of their ships. Chaplains will gather there often. Well, if that ship didn't make it, nor did the chaplains.
But that would mean that the main shrine should be on the flagship, with the Chapter Master? Also, it would be stupid and illogical for ALL Chaplains to be on one ship, or not to have backups.
9: The ancient heroes of the chapter interred in Dreadnoughts not having anything critical to say about the state of affairs.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
I'm pretty sure that they'd know that they were fighting alongside XENOS.
If they killed all their Dreadnoughts too, that would also spark uproar.
10: If you've got members of the chapter running around fighting on both sides of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, then nobody would accept them as allies.
Who said they do?
You did. When I said that no-one would, you said that no-one knew.
11: Given how heretical the chapter is, there is no way they'd be let anywhere near Cadia, Macragge, or Terra.
They are officially "destroyed" in Imperial records. Plus no-one knows they're heretics.
You said that they were classed as "active" on Imperial record after being seen on T'Gris, and the Inquisition, Deathwatch, and anyone who sees you fighting alongside Tau would know you're heretics.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
Yep.
Already addressed the impossibility of non-Eldar/1kSons using it accurately.
13: Raven Guard Legionnaires turning up with them.
Yep. Quite a few RG entered the warp after the Battle for Terra. They turn up from time to time.
Rarely. And what happens when they see them fighting alongside ALIENS?
14: Raven Guard Legionnaires willingly fighting with anybody who openly allied with aliens. The Great Crusade was all about wiping out aliens.
They. Don't. Know. Anything.
It wouldn't be hard to figure out that they were, especially in the Damocles Region.
15: Your Chapter Master getting collected by Trayzn the Infinite.
Yep. That's what Trayzn doesz
Again, why? More Deus-Ex.
16: Your Chapter Master getting released by Trayzn the Infinite for reasons.
There's a great book called The Fall of Cadia. Read it.
But WHY? Why specifically your guy? Why not some Catachan regiments, or imprisoned Tyranids, or something else? Why your Chapter Master?
You'd have difficulty getting away with any of these events in an acceptable backstory. Lumping all these ridiculously improbable events into one backstory just makes it ludicrous. It makes them the Mary Sueziest of Mary Sues.
Thanks.
Generally, it's a bit "Deus-Ex", and some parts which simply don't work. I hope this helps.
They/them
2017/05/03 21:23:18
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
Didnt know the chapter exists, tried to investigate, failed.
That directly contradicts your own fluff, which stated that an Inquisitorial/IG/Deathwatch force fought and scattered your chapter over their allegiance to the Tau.
Yes. And if you read the rest of the fluff, you would have read about a Tau fleet destroying the remaining invaders. It was only a small Inquisition forces, they were there to investigate.
I read your fluff. What you say is this: "990 M.41: Second Battle of T'Gris. Inquisitor Catus of the Ordo Xenos, sent to investigate the Shadow's Hunters' fortress monastery, supported by Xionan Death Legion and Death Watch forces, attacks Tau and Gue'vesa ships. Shadow's Hunter's retaliate, but are defeated by the Inquisition. Shadow's Hunters flee with their human allies, but are scattered by the Imperial fleet."
Reading that, it makes it out like the Imperials weren't defeated at all, and there's no reference at all to the Tau defeating the Inquisition at all.
And a few issues generally - this could not have been a small force. This army was strong enough to attack Tau and Gue'vesa ships, scatter and mostly annihilate a Space Marine Chapter at mostly full strength (judging by your roster), and drive them across the galaxy. Again, who takes the Xionian Death Legion AND Deathwatch on an investigation? You take them once your acolytes/reputed sources have identified the heresy. If that's the case, then they must have been charted as heretics. If not, then it would be foolish to believe that the Inquisition, and even the Deathwatch for that matter, would ever commit to a course if they didn't make sure someone knew where they were. They're not stupid. If they were beaten (which is says nowhere on your timeline), then a larger force would come and accuse your guys of heresy.
You don't mess with the Inquisition and emerge unscathed, unless you have political clout (ie, the Space Wolves).
Have an allied inquisitor. Well, a captured and brainwashed one, but one none the less.
Doesn't work. The Inquisition is full of psykers, and they're such a paranoid institution they're constantly monitoring each other. An Inquisitor going to bat for a Space Marine chapter openly allied with any alien species would become immediately suspect.
This Inquisitor is a psyker. He also has ABSOLUTELY. NO. IDEA. HE. IS. BEING. USED. Look at the vespids.
If he's a psyker, how do the Tau manipulate him? They're stronger than what they're used to, and have they lack warp understanding. How can he have no idea he's being used - he's an Inquisitor, with enough clout to order Deathwatch to "investigate" a planet.
You're just adding conveniences upon conveniences, and that's really bringing this down.
Read the fluff. IG are worthless, and whenever someone suspects Daemonic presence they start killing. Which I completely agree with
And yet your chapter got so bent out of shape about it they came to blows with the Iron Hands.
Yes. So did the space wolves, Raven Guard, salamanders, Emperor's Children, ultramarin es, Praetors of Orpheus and many others. Some space Marines care about humans.
But most of those you highlight have political clout of being a first founder.
Again, no-one, barring the inquisition, can justify a full battalion's execution. If the inquisition ordered it, why, if you lacked political clout, would you be so blind as to tackle a first founder on it? If that's their flaw, that's fine, but it comes across as rather imbecilic. Instead of a battalion of guardsmen, how about they get angry because the Iron Hands didn't protect a failing battleline of guardsmen during a campaign. That way, it can be seen both ways - your guys wanted to protect the guardsmen, but the Iron Hands had their orders, and didn't change their formation. That might have been the moment where you realised that the Imperium didn't care for men, so long as results were achieved.
More fluff friendly, and no-one looks stupid.
Not just one marine. Several, and THEY decided to go on crusade to pay for ALL their "sins".
A: Would barely rate an eyeblink, and B: Leaving off their duty to guard Cadia would be a serious dereliction of duty.
They already felt they were failing, as many chapters from their founding either moved off the blockade or where destroyed. They felt they weren't doing enough for the Imperium.
They'd be doing EVEN WORSE if they left their post? That's like me going "Me working at this cafe is essential, but I messed up that guy's coffee, and some peopel who joined at the same time as me have gone. I should quit".
Because warp storms never happen.
If it was the only unlikely occurrence, I'd have not mentioned it. However, your backstory is too full of implausible occurrences to get a pass on it.
That doesn't make sense.
It's Deus-Ex-Machina. A plot convenience. Having some is good, it gives a homebrew it's fun and flavour. However, if you add too much, which is easy to do, you end up with "and this unlikely thing happened, and then this, and then this, and then this, and then this...". It doesn't make good storytelling, IMO. If I had a character who did a bunch of implausible things, so like won Gold at the Olympics, saved a man's life, became a CEO, was homeless, became a colonel in the army, survived a car bomb, invented something wonderful etc etc - alone, they all make for good story hooks, and some paired can work. But when you have all of them at once, you end up with something that's just so convenient that you lose all suspense.
With all of your "conveniences", it seems a lot like that.
No, T'Gris has strange magnetic fields that prevent vox signals.
Magnetic fields don't interfere with psychic signalling, which is the Imperium's primary means of interstellar communication. Your timeline has at least one Librarian in it, so someone was around to cast the signal.
Psychic signal are Echos in the warp. With a collapsing webway Portal on planet, it will be quite hard to get a signal across.
Again, a convenience.
Also, a COLLAPSING webway portal? Firstly, I wasn't aware that webway portals, collapsing or not, affected psychic signals. The Eldar have no issue, nor does the Emperor, who's literally sitting on one.
Secondly, if it's collapsing, how do you get nearly two companies in it safely?
Not all CSM are in the Eye . Also, there is a large and fairly unstable portal on T'Gris, that they could use to get to the Eye.
It's not so much Chaos forces being away from the Eye as it is them deciding to launch a massive attack some insignificant isolated rock so far away from where the main action is.
Ok, I'll try again.
KAY-OSS HATEY POINTY EARED SPACE ELF SCUM! OHHH! LOOKEY! A POINTY EAR SPACE ELF SCUM BUILDED A WEBBYWAY POR-TALL! HWEE WEEL KAP-TOOR ET FOR KAAAAAAAY-OOOOoooooooooooos!
How do they know where the portal is? Why do they care for it? What use does it have, especially if it's collapsing?
That's why I made it. Its a "what if" scenario.
The point is, there's no room for that particular "what if". It wouldn't happen, period.
I really hope I never need to play against you. Its. A. Game. With. Toy. Soldiers.
If you're going to use that argument to justify anything you put here, why bother putting it up for comments and critique, if you'll just handwave it away with "IT'S JUST A TOY SOLDIER GAME". Yes, we know that. However, the lore is something which doesn't need to be connected to the game, and as such, we're dealing from a lore perspective. If you don't want to hear alternative views, that's just fine, but I'd recommend you to specify that you don't want to hear opposing views. I'm sure that's what a forum's for.
No doubt some did voice their opinion. All I know is that now those voices don't exist.
The implication that some of your chapter's senior officers eliminating other of your chapter's senior officers after a brief conversation with the Tau about the Greater Good (which they should see through like Saran Wrap anyway) just makes it more stupid, not less. The idea that some of your chapter's captains and librarians would be willing to kill others of their number, battle brothers they've fought alongside for decades if not centuries, in order to follow painfully transparent alien dogma (or stand aside and let the aliens do it) is simply farcical.
Check out literally every single successful revolution ever. People will stab their allies if they think its right and not bat an eye.
If they think it's right. Why would these guys, with all their conditioning, submit? If you want to say that their conditioning was ineffective and they were flawed from the start, that works. But to have them consciously choose it, and none of the senior staff quell the uprising or question it, is far fetched.
You may say "yes, this is justified because look at this successful revolution", but why is this revolution even successful in the first place?
Chapters typically have a main shrine on board one of their ships. Chaplains will gather there often. Well, if that ship didn't make it, nor did the chaplains.
The problem with that logic is the main shrine would most likely be in the fleet flagship, where the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian are. If those guys survived, then so should at least some of the chaplains.
Plus, you didn't address my point about 150 years passing without appointing new chaplains, which should have been done right away. Even if a sergeant had to step up and take control of the chapter, one of the first things he'd do is make sure there was somebody to tend to the his battle brother's spiritual well being.
Yes yes and yes. Flagship crashed. New Chapter Master was appointed. But due to their predicament they decided their own lives were more important.
You state in your organisation of the Chapter that Ra'van Al'la is Chapter Master both before and after the battle, as is your Chief Librarian.
You still have one Battleship, which must logically be your flagship (the Last Kiss of the Dawn Knight" - good name), so that's not been destroyed. So either your shrine is on an Attack Cruiser (unusually convenient), and there were NO Chaplains accompanying your Chapter Command, or there should still be some Chaplains.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
As above regarding siding with aliens over trusted battle brothers, only even more so considering the reverence chapters assign their Dreadnoughts.
Doesn't. Matter. The. New. Ways. Are. Better.
Look at the Christian reformation. Almost every saint's icon was removed from churches. That's how you change people mind. Give them no alternative.
The Christian Reformation is different to being genetically and rigorously conditioned to HATE xenos, practically worshipping your elders, and being a completely different species.
"The New Ways Are Better" in what way? Why do the majority of the Chapter think this? Enough to actually murder their own kin, their beloved ancestors?
If so, then your Chapter is arguably worse than the Irons Hands they warred with, and must have a serious defect in their conditioning to be so degenerate.
Who said they do?
Are you trolling? You did, in multiple places, stating that your chapter allied with both the Tau and the Raven Guard.
I said they fought on both sides. They're RG successors, after all. Stealth is their nature. And I doubt there were enough Marines on either side for the other to noticed. Also, its not unheard of for half a chapter to turn traitor while the other one hunts it down. Look at istvann III.
Istvaan III was isolated to one world, with one faction caught by surprise, stranded on world with no reinforcement or supply.
Being RG successors doesn't make you better at stealth. Look at the Carcharodons. Also, Stealth doesn't make you able to fight on both sides of a small conflict and nobody noticing. That's Alpha Legion levels of deception, not Raven Guard.
If the Imperium even saw a Space Marine fighting for the Tau, they'd be tagged and noted as xenoheretics. There's simply no way that you could fight on both sides of the war and not be caught or spotted, and that's ignoring the fact that the Imperium should know they're traitors.
They are officially "destroyed" in Imperial records. Plus no-one knows they're heretics.
The Inquisition and the Deathwatch know they're heretics, again as per your own fluff.
A FEW members of the Ordo Xenos KNEW about them. Then they either died, were captured or had their memories wiped, something that the Tau do quite well.
Where does it say Tau are good at mindwiping? Conditioning, yes, but that's not the same.
And no, not a few members. The Inquisitor did, and would have been conveniently idiotic to not inform another on his movements, and the Deathwatch would have had tabs on their guys too. And you still don't deploy Deathwatch for an "investigation".
And again - no record of the Inquisition force being defeated. All we know is that they were strong enough to scatter an entire Chapter.
12: You've got them using the Eldar webway.
Yep.
No one uses the webway but the Eldar and the massively psychic Thousand Sons.
Experimental technology. Emergency. You'll try anything to not die.
It's a collapsing portal - how were they able to navigate that? Also, if the planet's gravity (which is really nebulous as well - it forces your guys to crashland because it's gravitational field, yet doesn't crush the Space Marines on the surface, allows Chaos and Inquisition to move over it without crashlanding, and somehow this gravity is linked to the warp, so that the tau aren't crashed?) is so strong how do they fly a ship out? Where do they get a ship from?
Yep. Quite a few RG entered the warp after the Battle for Terra. They turn up from time to time.
Again, could maybe be overlooked in and of itself, but can't be ignored given the full weight of improbabilities in your backstory.
Still doesn't make any sense.
They. Don't. Know. Anything.
For now, no. But it wouldn't be long until they did. And again, conveniences.
Maybe when they come out of wherever they were, but it wouldn't take them long to figure out how heretical your chapter is.
There are less than 500 of them left. In the INTIRE GALAXY.
Yes, and you're going to return to T'au eventually. Or they'll see your xenotech. Or they'll know because of the Inquisiton and Deathwatch saying "HEY LOOK WE SENT THESE GUYS TO INVESTIGATE THEY ALL GOT KILLED SOMEHOW THIS CHAPTER MUST BE APPREHENDED BY ORDER OF THE ORDO XENOS"
Yep. That's what Trayzn doesz
Again, by itself, okay. With all the other silly shenanigans going on, it furthers the reader's incredulity.
Hmm?
As I said above. Why? How? What does it add other than "and then THIS happened". There's no reason beyond "it could happen". It's an implausibility on top of another implausibility. Sometimes the tower of implausibility will topple.
There's a great book called The Fall of Cadia. Read it.
Read it. Only one named character came out of it, and it wasn't your chapter master. Having your chapter master turn up at such a singular event kind of smacks of that guy who wants his character to be involved in everything cool happening, no matter how improbable it is for him to turn up at all the places where they are happening. Plus, it opens up at least one other can of worms - how he got from that warzone to wherever the heck he turned up.
Oh, throne. MORE THAN INTIRE ARMY TURNED UP! YOU THINK THEY DIDNT ALL HAVE NAMES?!
Here's a quote from Lexicanum about this: "Abaddon's simultaneous advance against the tunnels beneath Cadia's surface were confounded when Trazyn appeared with a Tesseract Labyrinth that disgorged a large number of lost Imperial forces collected over the millennium including Inquisitor Greyfax and her retinue, Horus Heresy-era Ultramarines, Vostroyans, Tanith Imperial Guard, and Salamanders. However these reinforcements are overwhelmed by a newly summoned horde of Daemons". So, yes, if your guy was chosen, then he'd be there. However, would he not have been overwhelmed by daemons?
Again, how did your guy get found? The odds of being picked up by Trazyn, dropped off by him, being found at the right time and place on a planet that's being broken apart, etc etc - it's all a bit... convenient.
Thanks.
It wasn't a compliment.
I know. Try giving some constructive feedback for once, instead of just insulting my work. Seriously, its a game. We play to have fun.
He's actually given very constructive feedback.
Constructive doesn't mean "yes, this is right and good, no issues here" - pointing out issues and challenging you on them is constructive. Saying "this is gak and you should be ashamed" is not constructive.
Pointing out problems is not insulting. If you think so, then why did you invite people to make comment?
Yes, it's a game. However, this is lore, your lore. If you have fun with it, all power to you. But by opening it up publicly, you really should consider that people may disagree and point to errors. If you don't want to hear other people's opinions, and just handwave views you don't like with "it's just a game, have fun!" then there's really no point to having people make any comment.
I hope this does help. The real issue is whether the events drive the plot, or your plot dictates the events. At the moment, it seems like the latter, and that's resulting in a TONNE of convenient events and happenings that really detract from your core concept. Perhaps you could try solidifying the events, and then link your battles to that, and err on the side of less implausible scenarios. I like a lot of this, but there are quite a few bits which sour it.
They/them
2017/05/04 16:05:36
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
Yes. And if you read the rest of the fluff, you would have read about a Tau fleet destroying the remaining invaders. It was only a small Inquisition forces, they were there to investigate.
That was not in your timeline, and is also inconsistent with the idea that the Inquisitorial/IG/DW forces were substantial enough to have your chapter on the run.
This Inquisitor is a psyker. He also has ABSOLUTELY. NO. IDEA. HE. IS. BEING. USED. Look at the vespids.
How does a race with no psychic ability whatsoever brainwash a psychic Inquisitor? Plus, even if one swallows that pill, one then has to accept the idea that a whole bunch of other psychic Inquisitors fail to notice your Manchurian Candidate acting oddly.
Yes. So did the space wolves, Raven Guard, salamanders, Emperor's Children, ultramarin es, Praetors of Orpheus and many others. Some space Marines care about humans.
I suppose the original point wasn't that it was implausible for your chapter to stick up for Guardsmen, but that the Iron Hands would wipe out a whole battalion of them instead of just asking them to move. I'll agree the IHs are among the jerkiest of loyalist chapters, but even they would probably as the battalion in question to move before opening fire on them. No mention of possible Chaos taint was made in your fluff.
They already felt they were failing, as many chapters from their founding either moved off the blockade or where destroyed. They felt they weren't doing enough for the Imperium.
SO, they feel like they're not doing enough, so they unilaterally withdraw from the single most important warzone in the galaxy to gad about in their fleet, is what you're saying. That seems like they're doing less for the Imperium, not more.
Psychic signal are Echos in the warp. With a collapsing webway Portal on planet, it will be quite hard to get a signal across.
I didn't notice any mention of a collapsed webway portal on the planet, and I was looking for things like that.
KAY-OSS HATEY POINTY EARED SPACE ELF SCUM! OHHH! LOOKEY! A POINTY EAR SPACE ELF SCUM BUILDED A WEBBYWAY POR-TALL! HWEE WEEL KAP-TOOR ET FOR KAAAAAAAY-OOOOoooooooooooos!
So this massive Chaos force is in the most middle-of-nowhere part of the galaxy they could find, and they just happen across a planet with a collapsed webway portal, that just happens to be the planet your chapter got marooned on, which just happens to have aspects to it that made communication off it impossible.
I really hope I never need to play against you. Its. A. Game. With. Toy. Soldiers.
You didn't post a batrep from a game you've played. You posted your chapter's backstory on an open forum, which invites criticism.
Check out literally every single successful revolution ever. People will stab their allies if they think its right and not bat an eye.
I don't think your grasp of history is all that good, and I also don't think you're giving adequate due to the seriousness of turning on one's only friends and family. You don't get a committed person to turn against their previously held beliefs, and those that continue to share them, after a brief chat. It would take months, if not years, of conditioning and manipulation. You've got your chapter bigwigs doing it after a 5-minute chat.
Yes yes and yes. Flagship crashed. New Chapter Master was appointed. But due to their predicament they decided their own lives were more important.
Maybe they did. Its quite easy to shut down life support systems of those who oppose you, and even easier to just not tell those in status what your up to.
Actually, the physical well being of soldiers in 40K is very much tied to their spiritual well being. Daemons are a thing, remember, and they are ever-ready to prey upon those who aren't vigilant against their temptations. Chaplains are the officers who tend to the spiritual well being of space marines, and so are protecting them against the very real physical threat of daemons manifesting in their midst. I would think this would be of extreme urgency on a planet with all the wacky warp shenanigans you've described - more so even that growing food. Space Marines can live on things normal humans can draw no sustenance out of, so they could survive on whatever wild vegetation was on your planet for more than long enough to get their replacement chaplains up to speed.
Plus, it's not an either-or proposition. Appoint replacement chaplains for those who so very improbably all died at once - 1 for each company. That's 10 individuals out of however many survived - certainly at least hundreds I'd imagine, if they were able to mount a respectable resistance to the later Chaos attack.
Doesn't. Matter. The. New. Ways. Are. Better.
Look at the Christian reformation. Almost every saint's icon was removed from churches. That's how you change people mind. Give them no alternative.
It does matter because desecrating those ancient heroes would certainly provoke open fighting within any chapter. Not to mention the fact that the techmarines would not go along either - they are indoctrinated to both the Imperial Creed and the Machine God, and they'd truck no fooling around with their charges.
The Protestant Reformation took place over the span of 131 years. You're expecting people to accept that Space Marines went through a similar shift in belief over the space of a few days or weeks. It's completely implausible.
I said they fought on both sides. They're RG successors, after all. Stealth is their nature. And I doubt there were enough Marines on either side for the other to noticed. Also, its not unheard of for half a chapter to turn traitor while the other one hunts it down. Look at istvann III.
So, they have allies on both sides when it suits you, and then they don't when someone calls you on it.
A FEW members of the Ordo Xenos KNEW about them. Then they either died, were captured or had their memories wiped, something that the Tau do quite well.
Again, that wasn't in your timeline. The Ordo Xenos/IG/Deathwatch force certainly had enough time to get out a signal that your chapter had attacked them for doing their jobs, and probably would have had enough time to get out a signal about the Tau intervention as well. And no, the Tau are not good enough at wiping minds to do so to psychic Inquisitors.
Experimental technology. Emergency. You'll try anything to not die.
Experimental technology from who? The Imperium doesn't have that kind of technology, and they certainly didn't get it from the Tau.
I know. Try giving some constructive feedback for once, instead of just insulting my work. Seriously, its a game. We play to have fun.
40K is a game, but it's a game with a narrative to it, and the narrative is why we play this game. Without it, we'd be playing badly-balanced, overly-complex, clunky-rules chess with dice. Minus the narrative, we'd all have more fun playing chess than 40K.
People get invested in the narratives they like. That's why there was such a huge uproar when Star Wars Episode 1 was released. George Lucas had taken a beloved narrative and chucked in a bunch of drivel. Your chapter's fluff in relation to the 40K setting is akin to Episode 1 to the Star Wars narrative. It's not quite as bad as Jar Jar Binks, but it is similarly grating as was little boy Anakin and all the things that just happened to turn out in his favor.
The more improbable things you need to have happen in order for the events you want to have occur in your backstory be possible, the worse your backstory is, which is the point I was trying to make when I was pointing out things like the convenient warp storm, stumbling across Great Crusade Raven Guard, getting collected by Trayzn, and the like. Yes, any of those things can happen in the 40K universe. However, for any of them to happen to any particular person or group is highly unlikely. The more of them you string together, the more implausible your backstory gets, and therefore the worse it gets.
The structure of your narrative is rickety enough, as it's built out of such a collection of highly improbable events. However, the foundation of your narrative - that a Space Marine chapter would forsake the Imperium and ally with the Tau - is outright garbage. Yes, Space Marines, as individuals and as groups, do forsake the Imperium. But, they don't make pinky-pal friendsies with aliens. They turn to Chaos. Chaos Marines are as anti-Imperium as they come, but they hate aliens just as much as as the most staunchly loyal Ultramarine. Having a chapter become allies with the Tau violates a core tenet of the 40K narrative. It doesn't happen, full stop, no buts, end of sentence. It would be like a Star Wars fanfic where a character who can't touch the Force become a member of the Jedi Order.
Sometimes a building is so badly built, it can't be fixed. There is no alternative but to tear it down and start fresh. The same principle applies to the backstory you've presented. The foundation of it is no good, and there are far to many flaws within the narrative for it to be even vaguely believable. Instead of investing more work in it, the very best thing you could do is start fresh, and try to craft a backstory that works within the existing framework of the 40K narrative rather than one that flies in the face of it. That may not be what you want to hear, but it is the absolute most constructive piece of criticism this backstory rates.
I mostly agree with you, Raziel, but I will disagree on one point.
I think it's perfectly possible for Space Marines to turn to the service of the Tau Empire. A Chapter which had deficient hypno-conditioning, a recruitment pool from a world strongly in the conditioning sphere of the Tau Empire (of course, how a Space Marine Chapter ended up recruiting from a Tau world, I have no idea), and was of a sufficiently humanitarian bent could be taken into the fold.
Smudge's Brain wrote:If they felt disillusioned by the death of so many guardsmen (say, being ordered to commit mass Exterminatus on the orders of the Imperium), and their hypno-therapy was deficient in some way, then a Tau collective that saved them, especially when the Chapter was weak or at their lowest ebb, could offer "help" - the Chapter is then given a far-flung world of the Empire, and in return, the Tau won't annihilate the Space Marines. Being pragmatic, the Chapter begin to recruit from the human population, wary of the Tau, but they need to rebuild. Perhaps their Chapter Master is selfish, and wants to be remembered as the one who brought the Chapter out of peril.
Either way, they recruit these humans, who have been strongly indoctrinated as sleeper agents in the service of the Tau Empire. Due to the imperfect manner of which the Chapter conducts it's hypno-therapy, they pass undetected. Some time later, now most of the Chapter are comprised of these sleeper agents, with some as Captains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, etc etc - except Librarians. On a signal from the hidden and waiting Tau Empire, the sleeper agents turn, murdering the few original Marines and taking the mantle of the Chapter. The Chapter is recorded as destroyed or heretical (say they were investigated by the Inquisition who immediately recognised the signs of heresy), and fully become a tool for use by the Tau Empire.
There we go: Space Marines mentally broken and rebuilt to serve the Tau Empire with machine-like efficiency. They have no care for their Imperial counterparts, and are a ceaseless tool in the defence of the Tau Empire.
It's not perfect, but it's completely possible to have a Chapter be in the service of the Tau. However, it wouldn't be of their own choice, and they wouldn't have any loyalty left for the Imperium.
They/them
2017/05/04 17:23:38
Subject: The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mostly agree with you, Raziel, but I will disagree on one point.
I think it's perfectly possible for Space Marines to turn to the service of the Tau Empire. A Chapter which had deficient hypno-conditioning, a recruitment pool from a world strongly in the conditioning sphere of the Tau Empire (of course, how a Space Marine Chapter ended up recruiting from a Tau world, I have no idea), and was of a sufficiently humanitarian bent could be taken into the fold.
Smudge's Brain wrote:If they felt disillusioned by the death of so many guardsmen (say, being ordered to commit mass Exterminatus on the orders of the Imperium), and their hypno-therapy was deficient in some way, then a Tau collective that saved them, especially when the Chapter was weak or at their lowest ebb, could offer "help" - the Chapter is then given a far-flung world of the Empire, and in return, the Tau won't annihilate the Space Marines. Being pragmatic, the Chapter begin to recruit from the human population, wary of the Tau, but they need to rebuild. Perhaps their Chapter Master is selfish, and wants to be remembered as the one who brought the Chapter out of peril.
Either way, they recruit these humans, who have been strongly indoctrinated as sleeper agents in the service of the Tau Empire. Due to the imperfect manner of which the Chapter conducts it's hypno-therapy, they pass undetected. Some time later, now most of the Chapter are comprised of these sleeper agents, with some as Captains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, etc etc - except Librarians. On a signal from the hidden and waiting Tau Empire, the sleeper agents turn, murdering the few original Marines and taking the mantle of the Chapter. The Chapter is recorded as destroyed or heretical (say they were investigated by the Inquisition who immediately recognised the signs of heresy), and fully become a tool for use by the Tau Empire.
There we go: Space Marines mentally broken and rebuilt to serve the Tau Empire with machine-like efficiency. They have no care for their Imperial counterparts, and are a ceaseless tool in the defence of the Tau Empire.
It's not perfect, but it's completely possible to have a Chapter be in the service of the Tau. However, it wouldn't be of their own choice, and they wouldn't have any loyalty left for the Imperium.
I'll grant you, that's a whole lot more plausible than the OP's fluff, but that's not setting the bar very high. A whole lot of dominoes still have to fall in a very particular way for the outcome you're proposing. Also, the chapter would be outed the instant it took up arms against any Imperial forces. So, unless the Tau had a let-Coventry-get-bombed-flat-to-protect-the-secret-of-Enigma-having-been-cracked level of commitment, we're talking pretty rapid annihilation by Imperial forces soon thereafter. I'd think the Raven Guard in particular would take a keen interest in extirpating that particular stain on their lineage's honor.
Not only that, but the Tau Empire completely lacks the technology to create and maintain all the wacky genetic and bio-engineering modifications that go into creating a Space Marine. That would leave the chapter without a reliable way to replenish their numbers. So, even if the Tau went to all that trouble to create a sleeper chapter, the payoff wouldn't be of very long duration. It doesn't seem like it could ever be worth the resources invested - invested in what would essentially be a gamble, because the Tau would have no way of knowing the chapter's psycho-indoctrination was deficient.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mostly agree with you, Raziel, but I will disagree on one point.
I think it's perfectly possible for Space Marines to turn to the service of the Tau Empire. A Chapter which had deficient hypno-conditioning, a recruitment pool from a world strongly in the conditioning sphere of the Tau Empire (of course, how a Space Marine Chapter ended up recruiting from a Tau world, I have no idea), and was of a sufficiently humanitarian bent could be taken into the fold.
Smudge's Brain wrote:If they felt disillusioned by the death of so many guardsmen (say, being ordered to commit mass Exterminatus on the orders of the Imperium), and their hypno-therapy was deficient in some way, then a Tau collective that saved them, especially when the Chapter was weak or at their lowest ebb, could offer "help" - the Chapter is then given a far-flung world of the Empire, and in return, the Tau won't annihilate the Space Marines. Being pragmatic, the Chapter begin to recruit from the human population, wary of the Tau, but they need to rebuild. Perhaps their Chapter Master is selfish, and wants to be remembered as the one who brought the Chapter out of peril.
Either way, they recruit these humans, who have been strongly indoctrinated as sleeper agents in the service of the Tau Empire. Due to the imperfect manner of which the Chapter conducts it's hypno-therapy, they pass undetected. Some time later, now most of the Chapter are comprised of these sleeper agents, with some as Captains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, etc etc - except Librarians. On a signal from the hidden and waiting Tau Empire, the sleeper agents turn, murdering the few original Marines and taking the mantle of the Chapter. The Chapter is recorded as destroyed or heretical (say they were investigated by the Inquisition who immediately recognised the signs of heresy), and fully become a tool for use by the Tau Empire.
There we go: Space Marines mentally broken and rebuilt to serve the Tau Empire with machine-like efficiency. They have no care for their Imperial counterparts, and are a ceaseless tool in the defence of the Tau Empire.
It's not perfect, but it's completely possible to have a Chapter be in the service of the Tau. However, it wouldn't be of their own choice, and they wouldn't have any loyalty left for the Imperium.
I'll grant you, that's a whole lot more plausible than the OP's fluff, but that's not setting the bar very high. A whole lot of dominoes still have to fall in a very particular way for the outcome you're proposing. Also, the chapter would be outed the instant it took up arms against any Imperial forces. So, unless the Tau had a let-Coventry-get-bombed-flat-to-protect-the-secret-of-Enigma-having-been-cracked level of commitment, we're talking pretty rapid annihilation by Imperial forces soon thereafter. I'd think the Raven Guard in particular would take a keen interest in extirpating that particular stain on their lineage's honor.
Oh absolutely. It requires some strong cunning and a lot of dedication from the Tau - which may explain why they're the only Chapter which works. And it absolutely hinges on their conditioning to be flawed, and them being willing to accept a planet "donated" by the Tau. They'd most certainly be targetted for annihilation, which may mean the Chapter is only deployed in the direst of circumstances, and sparingly at that. Perhaps they are the specialists at ranging beyond the Empire, but beyond that, they are certainly limited in their ability.
Not only that, but the Tau Empire completely lacks the technology to create and maintain all the wacky genetic and bio-engineering modifications that go into creating a Space Marine. That would leave the chapter without a reliable way to replenish their numbers. So, even if the Tau went to all that trouble to create a sleeper chapter, the payoff wouldn't be of very long duration. It doesn't seem like it could ever be worth the resources invested - invested in what would essentially be a gamble, because the Tau would have no way of knowing the chapter's psycho-indoctrination was deficient.
I think I slightly addressed that in my overview by having some sleeper agents be Apothecaries. If that was the case, then they might have some knowledge enough to make a makeshift method of neophyte implantation. Of course, this may be very slow, explaining why the Chapter isn't larger, and forces them to only commit in the most dire of scenarios, which would accommodate for why we don't hear of them in the actual lore.
Still, that's just a brief idea, and as you point out, it certainly hinges on conveniences.
However, it might give some ideas for the OP.
They/them
2017/05/04 22:40:14
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
On the topic of this, would it be in any way possible for Tau to create marines or something of the sort? When I had this idea my idea was either non chaos traitor marines, the tau creating marines of their own, or a tau scientist creating very advanced drones.
2017/05/05 01:06:24
Subject: Re:The Return of the Extra Heretical Tau/Human Space Marines (part III now, I think...)
TheLumberJack wrote: On the topic of this, would it be in any way possible for Tau to create marines or something of the sort? When I had this idea my idea was either non chaos traitor marines, the tau creating marines of their own, or a tau scientist creating very advanced drones.
Impossible. The creation of marines involves the warp. Something with absolutely zero psychic awareness is going to be unable to make space marines.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
You said he's NEAR, yet also FAR - which one is it? It specifically says, NEAR Terra. An unexpected Warp exit NEAR Terra would be enough to prompt an investigation, and they'd find a Space Marine from a Chapter noted for being xeno-heretics. Probably wouldn't work well for Aladia. And again, going from NEAR Terra, to Macragge, and then heading to Prospero in the space of one year? That's very short.
