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2017/05/02 17:55:42
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
Pretty sure AoS doesn't have the text "closest enemy" which is why a long charge can be sent around behind the unit and why people use the pile in to drag other units into assault.
Boomerang charges are a thing in AOS? Ughhh... thematic game mechanic fail if so and I hope its not ported over to Sighammer 40k.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2017/05/02 17:56:41
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
Random 2D6" is less offensive with the first two points in consideration as they were the biggest reason people would have trouble making charges in the old edition. Increased basic durability with the most common ranged weapons not negating saves means shooting lost some tooth so that assault units have an increased chance of making it into combat with more numbers. And the tactical push of the consolidation move allowing you to pile into nearby units helps decrease some strategies (castle and gunline) which may find the best option is to spread their forces out instead of building walls of models to protect the squishier things.
Now without seeing ALL the rules I can't promise that everything is as good as it looks right now, but I do feel assault is looking to have some buffs (especially if rend values are centered around melee weapons instead of ranged weapons) and shooting got toned back appropiately. Army building looks like it'll need a mix of assault and shooting units to be successful and that makes my little black heart very warm indeed.
You forgot that you now get an extra 1" to every charge, making successful charges significantly more likely.
“Step 1: When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.”
Edit - the above only applies to the pile in though. You can still "boomerang" on the charge in as long as the first model ends up within 1"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:00:57
2017/05/02 17:59:28
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
Pretty sure AoS doesn't have the text "closest enemy" which is why a long charge can be sent around behind the unit and why people use the pile in to drag other units into assault.
Except it does:
Age of Sigmar Core Rules wrote:Step 1: When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.
Edit: Beaten by KiloFiX
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:00:31
2017/05/02 18:01:24
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
Pretty sure AoS doesn't have the text "closest enemy" which is why a long charge can be sent around behind the unit and why people use the pile in to drag other units into assault.
Except it does:
Age of Sigmar Core Rules wrote:Step 1: When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.
Edit: Beaten by KiloFiX
In GW's official video about piling in they show you how you can move models around instead of straight lines towards the enemy.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/05/02 18:03:10
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
Random 2D6" is less offensive with the first two points in consideration as they were the biggest reason people would have trouble making charges in the old edition. Increased basic durability with the most common ranged weapons not negating saves means shooting lost some tooth so that assault units have an increased chance of making it into combat with more numbers. And the tactical push of the consolidation move allowing you to pile into nearby units helps decrease some strategies (castle and gunline) which may find the best option is to spread their forces out instead of building walls of models to protect the squishier things.
Now without seeing ALL the rules I can't promise that everything is as good as it looks right now, but I do feel assault is looking to have some buffs (especially if rend values are centered around melee weapons instead of ranged weapons) and shooting got toned back appropiately. Army building looks like it'll need a mix of assault and shooting units to be successful and that makes my little black heart very warm indeed.
You forgot that you now get an extra 1" to every charge, making successful charges significantly more likely.
True, true. I wasn't thinking about it as much as the other mechanics, 8" is now the avg charge range which is good too.
On a different note about ICs: if they can't join units how do they hitch rides on transports? Will they get retinues back to allow them to build command units to compensate at least?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:03:47
2017/05/02 18:03:48
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
I think the removal of templates is a big buff for horde armies and their larger units, and that synergizes with a couple of the points above.
davou wrote: just a heads up; but wounds being not pulled from the front has NOT yet been confirmed. Its speculative.
Speculation that has been said to come from the Foley tweets or Facebook posts. Granted without screencaps it's unconfirmed but seeing how much it was hated and how much bs came up from it I'd expect it to have gotten axed by the testing groups.
2017/05/02 18:05:36
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
The pile in video and the text is consistent. You can indeed move models around IF they end up closer to your closest opposing model than when they started.
But you cannot try to pull another unit in through pile in if your model ends up further from your closest opposing model than when they started.
2017/05/02 18:06:25
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
Random 2D6" is less offensive with the first two points in consideration as they were the biggest reason people would have trouble making charges in the old edition. Increased basic durability with the most common ranged weapons not negating saves means shooting lost some tooth so that assault units have an increased chance of making it into combat with more numbers. And the tactical push of the consolidation move allowing you to pile into nearby units helps decrease some strategies (castle and gunline) which may find the best option is to spread their forces out instead of building walls of models to protect the squishier things.
Now without seeing ALL the rules I can't promise that everything is as good as it looks right now, but I do feel assault is looking to have some buffs (especially if rend values are centered around melee weapons instead of ranged weapons) and shooting got toned back appropiately. Army building looks like it'll need a mix of assault and shooting units to be successful and that makes my little black heart very warm indeed.
You forgot that you now get an extra 1" to every charge, making successful charges significantly more likely.
True, true. I wasn't thinking about it as much as the other mechanics, 8" is now the avg charge range which is good too.
On a different note about ICs: if they can't join units how do they hitch rides on transports? Will they get retinues back to allow them to build command units to compensate at least?
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
I think the removal of templates is a big buff for horde armies and their larger units, and that synergizes with a couple of the points above.
Probably. With my Sisters horders were often an issue because flamer templates only become effective inside of charge range. That said there is likely a mechanic for determining how many models are hit that negates the need for templates like they did with the flamer.
That said, at the moment, it feels like the damage potential in the assault phase might be higher than from most shooting due to some of the changes.
2017/05/02 18:10:10
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
Random 2D6" is less offensive with the first two points in consideration as they were the biggest reason people would have trouble making charges in the old edition. Increased basic durability with the most common ranged weapons not negating saves means shooting lost some tooth so that assault units have an increased chance of making it into combat with more numbers. And the tactical push of the consolidation move allowing you to pile into nearby units helps decrease some strategies (castle and gunline) which may find the best option is to spread their forces out instead of building walls of models to protect the squishier things.
Now without seeing ALL the rules I can't promise that everything is as good as it looks right now, but I do feel assault is looking to have some buffs (especially if rend values are centered around melee weapons instead of ranged weapons) and shooting got toned back appropiately. Army building looks like it'll need a mix of assault and shooting units to be successful and that makes my little black heart very warm indeed.
You forgot that you now get an extra 1" to every charge, making successful charges significantly more likely.
True, true. I wasn't thinking about it as much as the other mechanics, 8" is now the avg charge range which is good too.
On a different note about ICs: if they can't join units how do they hitch rides on transports? Will they get retinues back to allow them to build command units to compensate at least?
davou wrote: just a heads up; but wounds being not pulled from the front has NOT yet been confirmed. Its speculative.
To be fair, it was strongly hinted at by the presumably balance team staffer (wouldn't be surprised if it's Foley himself) on the Warhammer 40k facebook page. The same staffer dropped similar hints about there being some pile-in mechanic for close combat and how decisive and bloody the close combat face is going to be about two or three days ago... and we now know that those hints were absolutely correct.
At this point casualties still being removed from the front is far more unlikely to be the case than it being the choice of the player owning the unit (which is also the case in AoS).
On a different note about ICs: if they can't join units how do they hitch rides on transports? Will they get retinues back to allow them to build command units to compensate at least?
My guess is ICs being temporarily allowed to join and hitch a ride along with another unit. When they disembark I think they'll be split up again. Otherwise ICs would be damned to walk the entire distance on foot or get a transport just for themselves, both seem quite unlikely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:20:38
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer
2017/05/02 18:18:04
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
KiloFiX wrote: The pile in video and the text is consistent. You can indeed move models around IF they end up closer to your closest opposing model than when they started.
But you cannot try to pull another unit in through pile in if your model ends up further from your closest opposing model than when they started.
It's possible in certain situations. Large bases can make it work because of measuring. Units that can fly can jump over the unit they're locked in with, catching the unit behind. Back ranks that are 9" away from their target can wheel around, ending up 8" away but close to another unit.
It's unlikely a 5 man unit that is lined up in front of another 5 man unit will pull in anything else, but charging blobs and large base cavalry will often be able to snag multiple units more easily than you think.
2017/05/02 18:18:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
ClockworkZion wrote: So as I was getting caught p in the thread a few things crossed my mind on some changes that buffed assault so far:
1. Wounds don't pull from the front. This means less sudden increases in distance between an assault unit and it's target due to being shot or via Overwatch.
2. Rend values on basic weapons look like they're going to be mostly 0s. This means horde and lightly armoured assault units (Nids, Orks, Banshees, Dark Eldar) can weather shooting more, and also have an increased survival rate when being shot at.
3. Assaulting from transports seems to be in. While this doesn't directly help Nids (save for the Spore Pod), it does give most assault units an increased durability to getting in close enough safely before they start stabbing people.
4. Pile in to pull in enemy units is a nice buff to horde armies as well since it can help tie up multiple units more easily, allow people to assault transports to get a free pile-in on the disembarked occupants, ect. A mechanic for negating overwatch that doesn't cost Command Points or wargear upgrades is good and promotes tactics on both sides.
Random 2D6" is less offensive with the first two points in consideration as they were the biggest reason people would have trouble making charges in the old edition. Increased basic durability with the most common ranged weapons not negating saves means shooting lost some tooth so that assault units have an increased chance of making it into combat with more numbers. And the tactical push of the consolidation move allowing you to pile into nearby units helps decrease some strategies (castle and gunline) which may find the best option is to spread their forces out instead of building walls of models to protect the squishier things.
Now without seeing ALL the rules I can't promise that everything is as good as it looks right now, but I do feel assault is looking to have some buffs (especially if rend values are centered around melee weapons instead of ranged weapons) and shooting got toned back appropiately. Army building looks like it'll need a mix of assault and shooting units to be successful and that makes my little black heart very warm indeed.
You forgot that you now get an extra 1" to every charge, making successful charges significantly more likely.
True, true. I wasn't thinking about it as much as the other mechanics, 8" is now the avg charge range which is good too.
On a different note about ICs: if they can't join units how do they hitch rides on transports? Will they get retinues back to allow them to build command units to compensate at least?
The pile in rules are all well and good for horde armies (and I certainly do not begrudge them that), but what about small, elite assault armies? They don't have the model count to pile in on multiple units at once, especially not after factoring in losses to overwatch.
2017/05/02 18:21:14
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
That doesn't answer transport sharing between units and ICs though.
It does, actually; it just doesn't address the issue separately.
Vessel: An Arkanaut Frigate can carry 10 Skyfarer models, allowing them to move swiftly across the battlefield and in relative safety.
Skyfarer is a keyword, so any model with that keyword can be carried. It specifies models, not units. It has an additional rule that it can carry extra models at a penalty to movement, so if you want extra characters, you'll have to go slower.
Embark: If all models in a Skyfarer unit can move to within 3" of a friendly Arkanaut Frigate in the movement phase, they can embark within it.
If you have a unit of 5 and a character, and both can move to within 3", they both can embark.
Disembark: Any unit that begins its hero phase embarked within an Arkanaut Frigate can disembark during the hero phase. When a unit disembarks, set it up so that all its models are within 3" of the vessel and none are within 3" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
You can disembark both units, as long as all of them fit within 3".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:22:17
Robin5t wrote: The pile in rules are all well and good for horde armies (and I certainly do not begrudge them that), but what about small, elite assault armies? They don't have the model count to pile in on multiple units at once, especially not after factoring in losses to overwatch.
Elite combat units just won't get to tie up multiple units that easily. Do you really expect 5 Vanguard Vets to operate exactly the same as 30 Hormagaunts? The former will have better weapons and will tear through tougher targets better, the latter will swarm multiple units and bog them down in bodies. They don't need to have the same strengths.
2017/05/02 18:24:36
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
AlmightyWalrus wrote: ICs no longer joining units does put a dampener on the silly units where multiple ICs synergize out the wazoo I guess.
Do we have full confirmation that ICs can't join units?
You'll have to dig through Pete Foley's tweets but it was definitely there in one of his tweet responses early after the initial 8th Edition announcement. I remember seeing it myself as well as multiple screencaps.
Same with the statements on the Warhammer 40.000 facebook page, they are responses to comments made to posts about the individual rule previews, so you'll have to do some digging.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/02 18:29:17
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer
2017/05/02 18:24:40
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
If they remove unit limits in transports and just make it a size limit instead I'll be over the moon. Multiple units in one transport should be possible.
2017/05/02 18:25:45
Subject: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
Azreal13 wrote: Just out of curiosity, can anyone name any other non-GW game where the distance a piece is going to move isn't totally clear before it actually tries to move?
I can't think of one other game that I've played. Even those that feature movement modifiers have set values so you'd know their impact before making any decision on what you did with that unit.
Stargrunt II used random movement when making quick advances (called Combat Movement). Rolled a die corresponding to your unit's speed and doubled the result.
A fair number of historicals games do it too. TooFat Lardies' Chain of Command (an excellent WW2 system) and Sharp Practice have diced movement, for example.
Like you said in the part I snipped out, randomized movement allows for some of the randomness and fog of war that get taken out of wargames because the tables have limited detail and the players have a top-down godlike view.
In real life, soldiers hesitate, they find unstable or difficult ground, etc.
But this doesn't address why, in 40K, none of this uncertainty applies to shooting.
Back in the day, we had the choosing the target rule, but these days a unit of Fire Warriors can calmly fire over the heads of a unit of Khorne Bezerkers mere feet away at a unit of Cultists at maximum range with totally undiminished efficacy. Even the cover save for an intervening unit can be bypassed by a markerlight judiciously applied.
One assumes that a major change to shooting such as not having free reign on your target choice would have been mentioned, so it's reasonable to assume it hasn't changed.
Once again, it isn't strictly an issue about random, so much as random being unevenly applied to the two halves of the game.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Pretty sure AoS doesn't have the text "closest enemy" which is why a long charge can be sent around behind the unit and why people use the pile in to drag other units into assault.
Except it does:
Age of Sigmar Core Rules wrote:Step 1: When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.
Edit: Beaten by KiloFiX
In GW's official video about piling in they show you how you can move models around instead of straight lines towards the enemy.
It doesn't say "straight line," no, and that wasn't implied. But it does say "towards closest enemy model," which means when you're done with the Pile In move that model has to be closer than when it started. So, the videos don't contradict that, so, please, continue.
2017/05/02 18:43:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer 40k 8th Edition - Summary (Keep it on topic) - 2nd May 17 - Fight Phase
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