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 jhnbrg wrote:


Its been playtested by a bunch of waac power gamers that will decide how games should be played, i VERY little confidence in them getting horde armies playable. All they want is small fast playing armies that are quick to paint.

feth this, i will leave until I can see the complete new rules.

Time to get back to painting i guess...

A bunch of great people who do tons for the community. Who'se events have narrative components, apocalypse games, events with dozens of tables dedicated to playing fluffy games.

Honestly, what have YOU done to have any kind of expectation that you can judge the effort of people like that?

Further, there are plenty of people interested in narrative play and completely divorced from the competition scene that have worked on the game as well. They're all in the same building where the fluff, rules and models are created and have been putting 'narrative' into the game for 30+ years now.

You should be less dismissive of people who have poured years of work into making a comunity; their events (adpeticon, nova, ITC) all have components for people who don't want to play WAAC games, including large scale campaigns, painting and hoby compeitions and even showcase for new and exciting games/products.

Have you ever even been to nova or adepticon? The grand tournaments are only a small fraction of what happens, and the people who run those events are VERY well placed to give incredibly valuable insight into how the game should be adjusted for improovement.

 Kriswall wrote:
Melee weapon ranges work fine in AoS.

With most infantry type models (25-40mm bases), you'll typically be getting two staggered rows attacking with a 1" range weapon. If you have a 2" range weapon, you'll typically get 3 staggered rows. It depends on specific placement. There are a few 3" range weapons, but those are rare. Halberds and the like. I could see the Custodes Guardian Spear being a 2-3" range weapon.

Given that different models have different weapons, it makes sense that a dude with a spear can reach more models than a dude with a dagger.

I was imagining 40K combat as more cinematic, in fact, I think one of the editions described it as a swirling melee. To me, that meant Lelith Hesperax was travelling across the combat and back doing backflips and what not in a single phase, not standing in the front rank and stabbing someone 8 times with her knife.

I would image one of these would be useful for the new edition:



Or something of that nature.

Don't worry, PP have everyone covered!

Youn wrote:
There is a video on Youtube were GW themselves explain piling in in AoS. The rule basically says, if you can move closer to a model you are allowed to pile in. He then goes into explaining the model 1/2" away from a model can pile in to the other side of the model. And the models behind him may move forward. But the models that are behind other models run into an issue that they cannot pile in because they aren't able to move closer to the fight.

It is very clear on how pile in works at least for AoS. And since, these two systems appear to be identical. I would guess they work the same.

A downright surreal video frankly. The way he piles in looks like an elaborate WAAC interpretation of "if you aren't touching the enemy you can move 3 inches closer to the enemy"

And yet that's the intent. Extremely gamey and convoluted when it would have been simpler to just allow models to sidestep for their friends.

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Youn wrote:
There aren't a lot of primarchs left to say he cannot have his position back. And I doubt any space marines would ever question the word of a primarch. They are kind of brainwashed to believe everything related to them.

a) getting position back isn't issue. Issue is whether that gives him ultimate authority over armies or not. Haven't read gathering storm 3 so can't comment on that but at least before he was stasified he didn't have ultimate authority
b) even if marines would follow him absolutely that wouldn't be enough for Guillimann to rebel. He would need bit more than that. And by bit I mean LOT MORE.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Melee weapon ranges work fine in AoS.

With most infantry type models (25-40mm bases), you'll typically be getting two staggered rows attacking with a 1" range weapon. If you have a 2" range weapon, you'll typically get 3 staggered rows. It depends on specific placement. There are a few 3" range weapons, but those are rare. Halberds and the like. I could see the Custodes Guardian Spear being a 2-3" range weapon.

Given that different models have different weapons, it makes sense that a dude with a spear can reach more models than a dude with a dagger.

That's not "fine". If GW is trying to speed up the game then a 2" kill zone was super quick now you have measure each individual models weapon range to an opposing model? There was no reason to introduce a weapons range when 2" from a friendly model in BTB worked great for many editions.

How could measuring everyone within 1" of an enemy model be any more difficult than measuring everyone within 2" of one of your own models in base to base? In fact, it's easier, since you don't have to care about who is in base to base and who fell just short of base to base. It's actually much easier.

1" is 25.4mm, or just over the size of the most common base in the game. You don't even need to measure if you're in B2B contact.

Something that's been rolling around in my mind is that weapon ranges do a couple of things:
1. Choices matter more than they did when melee was based on AP values alone. A possible situation is Big Choppas with a 2" range over a 1" Power Klaw. Do you want more models to be able to strike to do more dice, or do you want to focus on the quality of your attacks.

2. The changes are part of a method to try and balance out horde vs small units in melee. Decreasing how many models can engage at the same time (without taking wargear options to do so) means that balancing could be more finely tuned. If you need to buy the ability to deal extra wounds with more models then it's worth the change.

3. There was play testing involved in this and I'm willing to bet among all of the stuff going on someone ran a horde army of some kind. The 1" thing isn't going to break horde armies, and if it somehow does, we have a living ruleset, that means feedback can change this for the better.

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

tneva82 wrote:

Youn wrote:
There aren't a lot of primarchs left to say he cannot have his position back. And I doubt any space marines would ever question the word of a primarch. They are kind of brainwashed to believe everything related to them.

a) getting position back isn't issue. Issue is whether that gives him ultimate authority over armies or not. Haven't read gathering storm 3 so can't comment on that but at least before he was stasified he didn't have ultimate authority
b) even if marines would follow him absolutely that wouldn't be enough for Guillimann to rebel. He would need bit more than that. And by bit I mean LOT MORE.

Wait girly man is taking a seat with the hlot?

i figure he would be the type to lead from the front rather than the back. it was his whole shtick in unremembered empire.

I am hoping Demonhammers and Halberds get a 2" range on the Grey Knights. With falchions and swords having a 1" range. That will really have me trying to figure out how i am going to kit the 20 I don't have put together yet.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

You can make the same arguement about the use of flamer and blast templates. In this case though a tape measure works just fine instead.

"mass bloodshed and fire in the Damocles Gulf" I feel proud the IoM got wrecked so hard and then basically lit a warp storm to stop the Tau (which back fired big time) was one of the events to start this gak.

I knew the damn AdMech were messing with seriously heresy weapons. I dare say the weapons they unleashed would probably classify them as Here-teks and chaos tainted AdMech. Now they contributed to tearing the entire IoM in half.

Well the IoM can officially say they are reaching Eldar levels of stupidity with messing up the galaxy now. At this point the only thing worse that they could do would be if the Emperor spawned into a full chaos god and then made all the rifts 10x worse.

Also today's article mentions time distortions. I wonder if the Tau are/were under fast time mode to expand so fast in such a short time?

changemod wrote:

Youn wrote:
There is a video on Youtube were GW themselves explain piling in in AoS. The rule basically says, if you can move closer to a model you are allowed to pile in. He then goes into explaining the model 1/2" away from a model can pile in to the other side of the model. And the models behind him may move forward. But the models that are behind other models run into an issue that they cannot pile in because they aren't able to move closer to the fight.

It is very clear on how pile in works at least for AoS. And since, these two systems appear to be identical. I would guess they work the same.

A downright surreal video frankly. The way he piles in looks like an elaborate WAAC interpretation of "if you aren't touching the enemy you can move 3 inches closer to the enemy"

And yet that's the intent. Extremely gamey and convoluted when it would have been simpler to just allow models to sidestep for their friends.

I think it's a perfectly fine fluff system. If you're in base contact, you're in the press. You can't move because you're literally pushed into the opponent by the swell of bodies in the brawl, or your weapons are directly crossing with theirs. If you're back away from touching, you're still in a safe enough distance to move around into a better angle, like circling around the opponent in a fight.

Anybody with martial arts experience will tell you there's a big difference between being 5" away from an enemy and 2" away (or within grappling range), which is what we're talking about from a scale perspective.

Hopefully the attack range is based also on the base size since everyone (I think) knows that a larger base means you get way less attacks (or none) if you only have a 1" range.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait girly man is taking a seat with the hlot?

i figure he would be the type to lead from the front rather than the back. it was his whole shtick in unremembered empire.

Well that's the image I get from what I have read about gathering storm though not sure on his level of authority in new Imperium.

And don't see why he can't be both HLOT and lead from front. Who's going to stop? Unless Lion managed to teach him to stay back but then again now no primarch to hold him back.

Especially as having him back might make him tad harder to sell

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

You can make the same arguement about the use of flamer and blast templates. In this case though a tape measure works just fine instead.

Templates were fairly cheap and came with every starter set.

The combat gauge is the most absurd product I've seen from GW, entirely because of it's massive price. Not in the starter either.

changemod wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

You can make the same arguement about the use of flamer and blast templates. In this case though a tape measure works just fine instead.

Templates were fairly cheap and came with every starter set.

The combat gauge is the most absurd product I've seen from GW, entirely because of it's massive price. Not in the starter either.

Its also a totally unnecessary item and one I've never seen used in a game.

It's expensive but you can make a cheap alternative for nearly nothing. You may even have a piece of plasticard laying around. It has a 1" side, 2" side and 3" side.

 Ghaz wrote:

changemod wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

You can make the same arguement about the use of flamer and blast templates. In this case though a tape measure works just fine instead.

Templates were fairly cheap and came with every starter set.

The combat gauge is the most absurd product I've seen from GW, entirely because of it's massive price. Not in the starter either.

Its also a totally unnecessary item and one I've never seen used in a game.

I find that really odd actually. People use combat measurers all the time, though generally ones that are up to 6", but it's all the same type of stuff.

The GW gauge is too pricey though. My custom Necron one with all measures between 1" and 6" plus 1/2" was less than that... but it is GW. And I guess it's metal instead of laser cut plastic, but still.

 Red Corsair wrote:


No I really haven't, your suggesting the core rules require minimum to zero patching elsewhere or else it's poor game design, which is an arbitrary hurdle you have made up. Your welcome to disagree with their method, but suggesting something is poor design because it doesn't follow some arbitrary criteria you personally have is hogwash. Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card. MTG is a glaringly obvious example of why your wrong. And yes, plenty of cards only function because of the rule on there card, a rule found on a profile can both make a unit unique AND function.

This statement :"Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card."... Suggests that you are indeed missing the distinction between special rules that add flavour or distinction and special rules that patch holes in the core rules.

The former is fine, the latter is not. If you're fine with both, that's entirely up to you... I disagree (which I apparently have your permission for, so that's a relief...)

 Ghaz wrote:

changemod wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

Age of Sigmar Combat Gauge.

Ah so its a stupid way to sell people more products. The simple solution is just to allow people to attack within X" of their friends. Less worrying about movement during combat and the very weird pile in moves.

You can make the same arguement about the use of flamer and blast templates. In this case though a tape measure works just fine instead.

Templates were fairly cheap and came with every starter set.

The combat gauge is the most absurd product I've seen from GW, entirely because of it's massive price. Not in the starter either.

Its also a totally unnecessary item and one I've never seen used in a game.

I have to disagree it's very useful! (Not the Gw gold piece of £€$ so much) I have two made of plastic card 3'' by 1'' by 1/2'' excellent to fit between models for conherency to help eye ball weapon ranges, minimum charge range etc. But mainly we use them to drop in front of units so you don't move within 3'' of them when moving or charging so much easier so manage than a tap measure in tight spaces. Normally I dish out 3'' 6'' 18'' and full length tap measures for our games. More convenient, faster measuring, and less likely to knock stuff over. I just cut down the whippie measures you get in starters for my smaller rulers and made the 'combat gauge' out of thick plastic card minus the dashing neck tie lol which i suspect is just a hinderence. I'd recommend everyone make them to try out.

Yeah, a Combat Gauge is very very usefull to speed things up in meele and moving units, really. Like, using that with a horde army can basically aford you 20-25 minutes.

Obviusly, make one for cheap, it only takes you like 2 minutes, don't buy the GW one

 insaniak wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


No I really haven't, your suggesting the core rules require minimum to zero patching elsewhere or else it's poor game design, which is an arbitrary hurdle you have made up. Your welcome to disagree with their method, but suggesting something is poor design because it doesn't follow some arbitrary criteria you personally have is hogwash. Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card. MTG is a glaringly obvious example of why your wrong. And yes, plenty of cards only function because of the rule on there card, a rule found on a profile can both make a unit unique AND function.

This statement :"Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card."... Suggests that you are indeed missing the distinction between special rules that add flavour or distinction and special rules that patch holes in the core rules.

The former is fine, the latter is not. If you're fine with both, that's entirely up to you... I disagree (which I apparently have your permission for, so that's a relief...)

Why, in a game where you never play with just the core rules, does it matter whether the core rules cover every possible scenario evenly or not?

It doesn't make sense to me to poke holes in the core rules in isolation, especially when the entire point of this redesign is to keep the core rules streamlined so we don't have to buy 60 dollar hardback books to play in addition to our codices - they just include those for free.

Does this push the rules bloat into the codices instead? Sure. But 40k was never not going to have rules bloat. It's the nature of a game that tries to be narrative and characterful, so armies were always going to get their 'bespoke' boosts. Now they can tailor these boosts to do what they want rather than trying to interact with whether or not the Core rules provide a USR that covers it, or sort of covers it, or they have to make up exceptions and bundle rules together until you're cross-referencing your face off.

 jhnbrg wrote:


Its been playtested by a bunch of waac power gamers that will decide how games should be played, i VERY little confidence in them getting horde armies playable. All they want is small fast playing armies that are quick to paint.

feth this, i will leave until I can see the complete new rules.

Time to get back to painting i guess...

This is why we can't have anything nice.

GW playtested? I bet they didn't take the feedback!
GW took feedback? I bet the guys giving it stand to make a profit!
They might not make a profit? Well, I bet they were interested in only one thing even though I've never met these people!

God the gaming community really sucks.

 insaniak wrote:
This statement :"Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card."... Suggests that you are indeed missing the distinction between special rules that add flavour or distinction and special rules that patch holes in the core rules.

The former is fine, the latter is not. If you're fine with both, that's entirely up to you... I disagree (which I apparently have your permission for, so that's a relief...)

That's a completely semantic argument entirely driven by where a rule happens to be printed - if a particular rule in the core rulebook it's good, but if it's on some unit cards it's bad? That's bonkers!

 insaniak wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


No I really haven't, your suggesting the core rules require minimum to zero patching elsewhere or else it's poor game design, which is an arbitrary hurdle you have made up. Your welcome to disagree with their method, but suggesting something is poor design because it doesn't follow some arbitrary criteria you personally have is hogwash. Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card. MTG is a glaringly obvious example of why your wrong. And yes, plenty of cards only function because of the rule on there card, a rule found on a profile can both make a unit unique AND function.

This statement :"Plenty of other successful games have rules found on the individual unit/product card."... Suggests that you are indeed missing the distinction between special rules that add flavour or distinction and special rules that patch holes in the core rules.

The former is fine, the latter is not. If you're fine with both, that's entirely up to you... I disagree (which I apparently have your permission for, so that's a relief...)

I have no idea why you and a handful of other users find the idea of some units manipulating the core rules to better suit their unique traits is wrong. It works to make the armies unique in AoS and it has the potential to make every army unique in 8th.

But, seeing as we don't have enough information to go off of whatsoever, making any kind of judgement on it right now is a waste of time.

 Kirasu wrote:
Hopefully the attack range is based also on the base size since everyone (I think) knows that a larger base means you get way less attacks (or none) if you only have a 1" range.

Not likely. It will be based on the weapon.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:


Its been playtested by a bunch of waac power gamers that will decide how games should be played, i VERY little confidence in them getting horde armies playable. All they want is small fast playing armies that are quick to paint.

feth this, i will leave until I can see the complete new rules.

Time to get back to painting i guess...

This is why we can't have anything nice.

GW playtested? I bet they didn't take the feedback!
GW took feedback? I bet the guys giving it stand to make a profit!
They might not make a profit? Well, I bet they were interested in only one thing even though I've never met these people!

God the gaming community really sucks.

Yeah, all the great people in this hobby, but a few people complain, and on the internet no less, so the gaming community sucks. You know what sucks? Over reactions and generalisations.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
I have to disagree it's very useful! (Not the Gw gold piece of £€$ so much) I have two made of plastic card 3'' by 1'' by 1/2'' excellent to fit between models for conherency to help eye ball weapon ranges, minimum charge range etc. But mainly we use them to drop in front of units so you don't move within 3'' of them when moving or charging so much easier so manage than a tap measure in tight spaces. Normally I dish out 3'' 6'' 18'' and full length tap measures for our games. More convenient, faster measuring, and less likely to knock stuff over. I just cut down the whippie measures you get in starters for my smaller rulers and made the 'combat gauge' out of thick plastic card minus the dashing neck tie lol which i suspect is just a hinderence. I'd recommend everyone make them to try out.

I never said it wasn't useful, just that it's not mandatory in order to play the game and not an item I've seen used. Matter of fact, I'd forgotten about the combat gauge until Youn and Azreal13 posted similar items from different manufacturers.