40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Ragnar Blackmane**

ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm willing to be all of HMBC's money (I spent all of mine last week so his will have to do) that there will be a mechanic for ignoring those intervening models for sniping characters who hide like that.

Two words: Sniper. Rifles ;-).

ClockworkZion wrote:
Aside from that I feel it's probably safe to say that any problem we can see folks like Frankie and Reece probably saw and reported potential abuse issues. With how much GW has been talking about how balanced the new edition is I feel reasonably optimistic that they actually took measures to prevent exploits from getting into the final product.

That's how I am feeling as well (especially assuming that both were already active during 4th edition and experienced the possible shenigans there).

**Daedalus81**

labmouse42 wrote:
Characters can still be sniped, just through different methods.

If you are walking your IC 6" in front of the rest of your army, he can be targeted.
If someone drops a pod of marines right by your IC, he can be targeted.
Someone can move the skimmer right in front of your IC to target them.

The best way to protect your IC is to keep them in between two units.
X......X........X........X............................Y......Y........Y.......Y
X......X........X........X.............IC...........Y......Y........Y.......Y
X......X........X........X............................Y......Y........Y.......Y

Or embedded within a unit.
X......X........X...........X
X......X...IC.....X........X
X......X........X...........X

This makes me question if models still might come off from the front.

**Thommy H**

Remember, the removal of characters' ability to join units isn't just to stop deathstars: it's a design choice consistent with AoS (like basically all the other previewed rules so far...). It also simplifies (by completley obviating for the most part) wound allocation, different saves, splitting attacks for/between characters in combat, "Look Out, Sir!" saves and challenges.

And it isn't like "joining a unit" is a real thing. It's just a mechanic inhereted from WHFB to stop heroes from being picked off in an un-heroic fashion. This achieves the same thing.

**Requizen**

Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

We don't know what they consider the scale of Characters.

In AoS, a Hero on foot would have 4 for squishy humans, 5 or 6 for Stormcast (Space Marines), 7 for big things like Orcs (Orruks, sorry).
Heavy Cavalry heroes have around 7ish.
Heroes on Dragons or big monster Heroes like Nagash have 12-18ish.

RG with 9 might seem like he's just there to gain the cover rule, but in honesty most Heroes will probably have 5~6 so he's probably built with the amount of Wounds to indicate that he's bigger than most, but not as massive as a Daemon Prince.

**str00dles1**

nintura wrote:
RG is a Primarch and has 9. I feel this is done JUST SO he can hide. It could be my tin foil going on, but that feels like they are still trying to keep things in the Ultramarines favor. I was hoping they'd stop doing that.

Yup, you are for sure wearing a ton foil hat. This isn't done just for Ultras. You do know they are releasing other Primarchs that will be 9 wounds and under. I expect Deamon Promarchs to be above this as they are, well deamon+primarch

**Thud**

Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, some good some bad here.

I like that they're seemingly cognizant of the absurdity, both thematically and from a balance perspective, of Deathstar units and are working to dismantle that. Great stuff.

I am not terribly thrilled about untargetable characters however. We had this in 3E and 4E, and it was rather open to abuse. My favorite example was Eldar players hiding Farseers between the frontal wings of Wave Serpents and Falcons, the character is clearly in the open and visible, but because the two tips of the wings were slightly closer, they became invisible to shooting. Not a fan of this mechanic, especially with something like a Primarch, who should not only be a huge and clearly distinct and visible item on a battlefield, but is also a CC beast who can become invulnerable to shooting with little or no real tactical ability on the part of tbe commander with a rules setup like this, and thus, with little or no real tactical ability be delivered into CC punchy kill death range.

This mechanic *will* see abuse.

That said, it will be interesting to see how they handle units like IG command squads.

Hiding in a unit, or hiding next to a unit. Does it really make a difference?

**ClockworkZion**

Since Magnus has over a dozen wounds, does anyone else feel like the Greater Daemons will be rolling in at above ten wounds as well?

**lessthanjeff**

str00dles1 wrote:
nintura wrote:
RG is a Primarch and has 9. I feel this is done JUST SO he can hide. It could be my tin foil going on, but that feels like they are still trying to keep things in the Ultramarines favor. I was hoping they'd stop doing that.

Yup, you are for sure wearing a ton foil hat. This isn't done just for Ultras. You do know they are releasing other Primarchs that will be 9 wounds and under. I expect Deamon Promarchs to be above this as they are, well deamon+primarch

The rule actually says if you have 10 or less wounds you get to hide, so there's no credence to them setting the big G to 9 to keep him just under the threshold. If anything, it proves they specifically set his wounds to what they thought it should be and didn't try to put him just under the hiding limit.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm willing to be all of HMBC's money (I spent all of mine last week so his will have to do) that there will be a mechanic for ignoring those intervening models for sniping characters who hide like that.

Two words: Sniper. Rifles ;-).

Most likely. Sniper Rifles might actually do the job they're supposed to do.

**nintura**

Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Yep. One has 9 wounds and can hide, for 350 points (?), the other has 12, cannot hide and costs 650 points (?). Going off memory, probably wrong on the points. Let's hope things get balanced a little more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:
nintura wrote:
RG is a Primarch and has 9. I feel this is done JUST SO he can hide. It could be my tin foil going on, but that feels like they are still trying to keep things in the Ultramarines favor. I was hoping they'd stop doing that.

Yup, you are for sure wearing a ton foil hat. This isn't done just for Ultras. You do know they are releasing other Primarchs that will be 9 wounds and under. I expect Deamon Promarchs to be above this as they are, well deamon+primarch

Really? And your source for this absolute knowledge is what exactly? You know the statlines of all primarchs to come?

**zamerion**

Spoiler:

You can do something like that:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/tactical-toolbox-zoning-and-area-denial/

**lessthanjeff**

nintura wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Yep. One has 9 wounds and can hide, for 350 points (?), the other has 12, cannot hide and costs 650 points (?). Going off memory, probably wrong on the points. Let's hope things get balanced a little more.

If we're still going on 7th rules, one is a level 5 psyker that knows 15 powers and casts on a 2+, can only be shot on a 6+, moves twice as far, has a higher toughness, rerolls saving throws of 1, etc.

This is pointless, you're complaining about a model that you know nothing about rules wise because other people got something you didn't.

**Albino Squirrel**

A bit silly that nobody can pick out roboute guilliman on the battlefield.

Also, not sure how this solves the problem of deathstars. If I have one character that grants +1 to hit to every unit within 6", and another that grants re-rolls of 1 to hit for every unit within 6", I now can have at least two units that hit on 2+ with a re-roll. The only difference is the use of keywords to prevents the cross-faction sillyness. So it largely comes down to how they design the factions, keywords, and available abilities.

**Unusual Suspect**

Kanluwen wrote:

You won't likely be able to do the second one. In AoS, you have to maintain a certain amount of unit coherency and there is no mechanic allowing you to be "within" another unit's coherency, friendly or otherwise.

The rules presumably allow you to move your models.

Given that blanket allowance, there would need to be an explicit exception that PREVENTS you from using that movement to end up "within" another unit's coherency - either in the rules for coherency, the rules for movement, or the rules for characters.

Without that explicit exception, the blanket rule allowance would apply.

**En Excelsis**

Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Not sure I would have interpreted his demonic 'ascendency' as having been that profound a difference but ... such is the nature of fantasy I suppose. I think that he would have been better suited with still having fewer wounds than his brothers but having gained more power in the form of increased sorcerous might. Running counter to that - he is a very large model and Magnus was always referred to as a giant so...

In any case, it feels a little intentional that RG can in fact 'hide' with the new rules, given that his model still towers over marines he'll likely be slogging alongside.

Seems like GW's love affair with the boys in blue will never end. If ever there were a change to pass the torch to a new chapter and have a new 'poster child' this edition was it.

Spilled milk at this point though.

**nintura**

lessthanjeff wrote:
nintura wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Yep. One has 9 wounds and can hide, for 350 points (?), the other has 12, cannot hide and costs 650 points (?). Going off memory, probably wrong on the points. Let's hope things get balanced a little more.

If we're still going on 7th rules, one is a level 5 psyker that knows 15 powers and casts on a 2+, can only be shot on a 6+, moves twice as far, has a higher toughness, rerolls saving throws of 1, etc.

This is pointless, you're complaining about a model that you know nothing about rules wise because other people got something you didn't.

Given the option, I'd rather lose 3 wounds on my magnus to be able to hide.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

En Excelsis wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Not sure I would have interpreted his demonic 'ascendency' as having been that profound a difference but ... such is the nature of fantasy I suppose. I think that he would have been better suited with still having fewer wounds than his brothers but having gained more power in the form of increased sorcerous might. Running counter to that - he is a very large model and Magnus was always referred to as a giant so...

In any case, it feels a little intentional that RG can in fact 'hide' with the new rules, given that his model still towers over marines he'll likely be slogging alongside.

Seems like GW's love affair with the boys in blue will never end. If ever there were a change to pass the torch to a new chapter and have a new 'poster child' this edition was it.

Spilled milk at this point though.

Yep, I feel this nail has been hit on the head.

**lessthanjeff**

nintura wrote:
lessthanjeff wrote:
nintura wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Yep. One has 9 wounds and can hide, for 350 points (?), the other has 12, cannot hide and costs 650 points (?). Going off memory, probably wrong on the points. Let's hope things get balanced a little more.

If we're still going on 7th rules, one is a level 5 psyker that knows 15 powers and casts on a 2+, can only be shot on a 6+, moves twice as far, has a higher toughness, rerolls saving throws of 1, etc.

This is pointless, you're complaining about a model that you know nothing about rules wise because other people got something you didn't.

Given the option, I'd rather lose 3 wounds on my magnus to be able to hide.

They said he has over a dozen wounds, you can't even say with certainty how many wounds he'd have to lose or what other rules he'd have to lose as well. Guess what, Magnus is going to have things G won't either. You can cry about it or wait till you actually know anything at all about Magnus before you complain about him.

**Unusual Suspect**

Magnus has "over a dozen wounds" according to the article. That means Magnus has at least 13 wounds, and possibly has more.

**Requizen**

nintura wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:

In all likelihood, the Primarchs will all probably have more than 10 wounds and will thusly be exempt from this rule. You'll still be able to target them specifically. Magnus is not the strongest (physically) since he is a Pskyer and he has 12 wounds - the others will likely have many more.
Magnus is a daemonically ascended Primarch, even more powerful in such a form, RG was called out specifically in GW's article today as having 9 wounds and being able to hide as a result

Yep. One has 9 wounds and can hide, for 350 points (?), the other has 12, cannot hide and costs 650 points (?). Going off memory, probably wrong on the points. Let's hope things get balanced a little more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:
nintura wrote:
RG is a Primarch and has 9. I feel this is done JUST SO he can hide. It could be my tin foil going on, but that feels like they are still trying to keep things in the Ultramarines favor. I was hoping they'd stop doing that.

Yup, you are for sure wearing a ton foil hat. This isn't done just for Ultras. You do know they are releasing other Primarchs that will be 9 wounds and under. I expect Deamon Promarchs to be above this as they are, well deamon+primarch

Really? And your source for this absolute knowledge is what exactly? You know the statlines of all primarchs to come?

"Look, if I mix and match old rules and some of the newly released stuff that we only know half of, it's bad! The sky is falling!"

Just wait for the rest of the rules to be released and don't use 7th edition rules/points to try and prove something about new rules.

**davou**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

"A unit can only be joined by one character at a time."

Boom. Problems with multiple character Deathstars solved. No need to deny characters the opportunity lead units. Did it in one sentence.

So did they,

Characters cannot join units

and they have the backing of very accomplished community contributors who say that this system works quickly and well on top of it. Apart from piles of pessimism, what makes you think your one sentence solution is better than theirs?

**jreilly89**

Heroes not being able to be sniped seems like a big change from AoS, possibly for the better. In a lot of AoS batreps, it seems like the heroes always get kept at the back, lest they get shot to hell.

**En Excelsis**

Not that there is a specific point to this entire thread other than to 'discuss' the changes - but that's all anyone can do right now.

GW is releasing tidbits, not the whole ruleset. All we can do at the moment is take what they are releasing and measure it against our existing metrics - even if we know that metric is subject to change when full ruleset does come out.

No harm is being done by speculating - it's all just banter anyway. Relax. No one needs to be the subject matter police.

**labmouse42**

demontalons wrote:
But also hooray! No more deathstars

This.

Deathstars have dominated 40k for years. Not having them in the game will completely change the way the game is played.

I'm incredibly excited about this.

**Crimson**

I don't think it is at all weird that Guilliman can hide behind infantry while Magnus can't.

**labmouse42**

Kanluwen wrote:
You won't likely be able to do the second one. In AoS, you have to maintain a certain amount of unit coherency and there is no mechanic allowing you to be "within" another unit's coherency, friendly or otherwise.

Thanks. That's helpful to know.

**docdoom77**

Crimson wrote:

I don't think it is at all weird that Guilliman can hide behind infantry while Magnus can't.

Thanks for this!

**Unusual Suspect**

To be fair, we don't actually know if Deathstars are actually, truly impossible now - we just know that the previous method of creating them (joining multiple ICs that grant special rules to particularly powerful units and/or using powers/equipment to buff them up) is no longer possible, and that keywords (in theory) will prevent the worst abuse.

Mortal wounds, keywords, and holistic balancing will hopefully prevent the worst excesses that we've seen, but clanging the death knell for Deathstars before we see all the rules seems... premature.

**Ragnar Blackmane**

zamerion wrote:
[spoiler]

You can do something like that:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/tactical-toolbox-zoning-and-area-denial/

Falls apart as soon as the unit takes casualties. Either the models holding the objective have to go or those hiding the character.

**Seneca**

davou wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

"A unit can only be joined by one character at a time."

Boom. Problems with multiple character Deathstars solved. No need to deny characters the opportunity lead units. Did it in one sentence.

So did they,

Characters cannot join units

and they have the backing of very accomplished community contributors who say that this system works quickly and well on top of it. Apart from piles of pessimism, what makes you think your one sentence solution is better than theirs?

Actually, his idea would have The same effect as GW's. Considering that sergeangts and other unit leaders count as characters too

**labmouse42**

Daedalus81 wrote:
This makes me question if models still might come off from the front.

That's an excellent question. I, for one, really hope that they do not and it goes back to defender's choice.
It would make foot assault armies more viable.