40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Fenris-77**

I think the most interesting thing in that article was the fact that Daemonettes get that special power in units of 20+. That says to me, and obviously I'm just spit-balling, that there may be a trend in 8th of tying special unit powers to larger unit sizes, at least in some cases. That's good news for the boyz before toyz crowd.

Having to chose between the tactics of MSU and special rules for bigger units makes for more nuanced list building. IMO anyway.

**Azreal13**

It also means that unit size has changed, 20 was a max unit previously, I think for pretty much anything, but certainly lesser daemons.

**changemod**

Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

In AoS Daemonette units can have a max size of 30, which creates an interesting dynamic. Does a saavy opponent try to divide their fire getting several units of 30, below 20 to reduce their attacks that much more, or do they burn down a unit getting precariously close to them?

AoS definitely has tactical rewards for both elite, power units, but also hordes of small gribblies... something I really missed from 7th Ed 40k, where MSU was king.

**Requizen**

changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

**changemod**

Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

**Spoletta**

Kirasu wrote:
In a game balanced by points, it's always been really absurd to get units for 0 points. Tervigons should pay for the upgrade to spit out gaunts based on average # on 3d6 and same goes for Pink Horrors. Then you wouldn't be getting a large advantage for doing nothing.

That's exactly how tervigons works in 7th, with the exception that cannot decide to NOT have that upgrade. Unless you seriously think that the tervigon is worth her points without the ability to spawn gants.

**Requizen**

changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

Well we don't know what the pointing is going to be like. Maybe if you only split off 3 Blues you only pay for 3. Or you pay for the full unit and can split into that unit up to 10 for free after (in AoS, you can refill a unit for free but going past that costs points).

**ERJAK**

changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

If you don't see how awesome having a troop unit you have to kill 3 times to get off of an objective is that's kinda on you.

**changemod**

Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

Well we don't know what the pointing is going to be like. Maybe if you only split off 3 Blues you only pay for 3. Or you pay for the full unit and can split into that unit up to 10 for free after (in AoS, you can refill a unit for free but going past that costs points).

It's nice if you can spawn a single blue with your leftover 5 points, I guess. A pretty petty gimmick if so though.

**Bulldogging**

ERJAK wrote:
changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

If you don't see how awesome having a troop unit you have to kill 3 times to get off of an objective is that's kinda on you.

It's almost as nice as having those same 3 units on the board(or normal deepstrike) doing stuff offensively and defensively the entire time for the same number of points....

**changemod**

Bulldogging wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
changemod wrote:
Requizen wrote:
changemod wrote:
Honestly I'd have preferred if horrors were priced appropriately for their splitting power: It's a phenomenal waste of time to leave your army undersized in the vague hope that your opponent will target and kill them early enough in the game that you can bring in their replacements.

Still, Horrors couldn't split for many editions and now to all intents and purposes they can't split again. Pretty harmless, but kinda disappointing when they have models now.

Horrors are priced for their splitting power - if you want to give your Pink Horrors the power to split, you pay the price of a unit of Blue Horrors as an upgrade.

For example, in AoS, Pinks are 140 for 10 and Blues are 50 for 10. If you want to have Pinks that can split, don't think of it as "setting aside" 50 points, think of it as upgrading the unit for 50 points. Except the upgrade can also affect any Pink unit on the table.

I don't think you thought this through all the way. For the same price, you could make use of the blues and pinks at the same time. That's not pricing the pinks appropriately to carry on weaker when killed, it's buying a seperate unit.

Death-triggered creation of a weaker unit isn't really the same thing as any time summoning of potentially stronger units.

If you don't see how awesome having a troop unit you have to kill 3 times to get off of an objective is that's kinda on you.

It's almost as nice as having those same 3 units on the board doing stuff offensively and defensively the entire time for the same number of points....

Or in deep strike reserve, able to land quicker and anywhere you need them.

Also, when was the last time the ability to hold one objective -really well- mattered all that much? Obsec spam works because you can grab maelstrom points all over the place from the six objectives on the board.

**Yonasu**

You guys dont get it, the big reveal later will be that you only have 2 minutes per phase to do everything, then it moves on.
So having just 2 unit of horrors and the rest in reinforcement points(tm) will be super super tactical.
Plus, it will be super fluffy since daemons cant move in big hordes (fluff pending).

Keywords: Tactical, Daemons, Feth-all-your-bought-horrors-that-have-no-place-in-the-game-anymore

**Fenris-77**

Also, about the Daemonettes, there's nothing saying that they lose that ability of the unit is reduced below 20 during the game. They might, but they also might not. Personally, I'd prefer if they kept the ability during game, mostly because its relatively easy to kill 5 or 10 lesser daemons and it might not be enough of an incentive to field large units if the resulting buff was so easily lost.

**Daedalus81**

Fenris-77 wrote:
Also, about the Daemonettes, there's nothing saying that they lose that ability of the unit is reduced below 20 during the game. They might, but they also might not. Personally, I'd prefer if they kept the ability during game, mostly because its relatively easy to kill 5 or 10 lesser daemons and it might not be enough of an incentive to field large units if the resulting buff was so easily lost.

Yea it is one thing in AoS when not everything shoots to get to CC with a big unit. 40K is a different beast so i'll be curious to see the factors at play here. I doubt they'll keep it, but a point cost adjustment may be in order.

On the plus side S5 weapons don't wound them on 2s anymore...

**spiralingcadaver**

Kirasu wrote:
In a game balanced by points, it's always been really absurd to get units for 0 points.

Not exactly. There are plenty of systems that work with summoning, but what it comes down to is you should pay for that opportunity. Maybe the summoner is overpriced otherwise, or maybe the ability to summon costs points, or maybe it comes with restrictions or limitations or action costs or option losses or risks.

The problem isn't 0 points, it's that the mechanic as a whole doesn't add up to something balanced. I don't think the new system is particularly innovative or imaginative, but do think it basically gets the job done and will be easy to balance.

**pizzaguardian**

Tervigons summoning was a bad thing and demon summoning is bad as well.

As an example to the question of "was gaunt summoning or scarab summoning that bad?"

The answer is a simple yes. In order to go any further i would like to see how it was a good thing. (Did people really forget in 5th where tervigons summoned 3x 3d6 models per turn? Anectodal evidence, the only that stopped our tyranid players was their model numbers running out)

Free summoning should have never existed and glad to see them gone. I even hope replacements are costed.

They create nothing but bloat for the game for rules such as how do you place them?, can you directly summon into combat since it is not a movement? .

You can have many many abilities that are fluffy and actually only work when they are answered correctly, which creates even more complex rules. Summoning is one of them and just too much hassle for what it brings to the game.

**Mymearan**

Fenris-77 wrote:I think the most interesting thing in that article was the fact that Daemonettes get that special power in units of 20+. That says to me, and obviously I'm just spit-balling, that there may be a trend in 8th of tying special unit powers to larger unit sizes, at least in some cases. That's good news for the boyz before toyz crowd.

Having to chose between the tactics of MSU and special rules for bigger units makes for more nuanced list building. IMO anyway.

Every unit in AoS that has a unit size of 10-30 or more gets buffs for being over 10/20/30 models, so yeah that's pretty safe to say.

Yonasu wrote:You guys dont get it, the big reveal later will be that you only have 2 minutes per phase to do everything, then it moves on.
So having just 2 unit of horrors and the rest in reinforcement points(tm) will be super super tactical.
Plus, it will be super fluffy since daemons cant move in big hordes (fluff pending).

Keywords: Tactical, Daemons, Feth-all-your-bought-horrors-that-have-no-place-in-the-game-anymore

Or just use Blue and Brimstone Horrors as separate units that, if AoS is anything to go by, will be super cheap, very useful and see a lot of play. No need to overreact.

**BlaxicanX**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Kirasu wrote:
In a game balanced by points, it's always been really absurd to get units for 0 points.
Not exactly. There are plenty of systems that work with summoning, but what it comes down to is you should pay for that opportunity. Maybe the summoner is overpriced otherwise, or maybe the ability to summon costs points, or maybe it comes with restrictions or limitations or action costs or option losses or risks.

The problem isn't 0 points, it's that the mechanic as a whole doesn't add up to something balanced. I don't think the new system is particularly innovative or imaginative, but do think it basically gets the job done and will be easy to balance.

"The problem isn't that summoning costs 0 points, it works in other games. It's just you should have to pay something for it."

What?

**Zewrath**

Regarding the Tervigon, what if they did something similar to the current one, were you were required to take 30 gaunts to take one as troop, but in 8th you need 30 gaunts + a tervigon in order for the tervigon to spawn new gaunts and the newly spawned gaunts cannot exceed beyond the 30 gaunts you brought from the start?

**Mr_Rose**

BlaxicanX wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
Kirasu wrote:
In a game balanced by points, it's always been really absurd to get units for 0 points.
Not exactly. There are plenty of systems that work with summoning, but what it comes down to is you should pay for that opportunity. Maybe the summoner is overpriced otherwise, or maybe the ability to summon costs points, or maybe it comes with restrictions or limitations or action costs or option losses or risks.

The problem isn't 0 points, it's that the mechanic as a whole doesn't add up to something balanced. I don't think the new system is particularly innovative or imaginative, but do think it basically gets the job done and will be easy to balance.

"The problem isn't that summoning costs 0 points, it works in other games. It's just you should have to pay something for it."

What?

Points aren't the only resource in a game; summoning for no points can be balanced if it negatively impacts some other thing.
It can also be balanced if the summoning ability is itself costed to account for the summoned models but that's still a point cost.

If you're going after "alternate resources" in nu40k though, I'd go straight for Command Points myself.
And/or making it so that you can't summmon units that you don't have spare "slots" for on your force org chart (e.g. if you have a single CAD as your list, and already have three elite units, no elite summons for you).

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Or maybe the Tervigon could lose a wound everytime it spawns new Gaunts?

**BroodSpawn**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Or maybe the Tervigon could lose a wound everytime it spawns new Gaunts?

If you want to make bug Tyranid creatures worth it, having them hurt themselves for the in-lore function they're meant to provide seems counter-productive.

**kestral**

pizzaguardian wrote:
Tervigons summoning was a bad thing and demon summoning is bad as well.

As an example to the question of "was gaunt summoning or scarab summoning that bad?"

The answer is a simple yes. In order to go any further i would like to see how it was a good thing. (Did people really forget in 5th where tervigons summoned 3x 3d6 models per turn? Anectodal evidence, the only that stopped our tyranid players was their model numbers running out)

Free summoning should have never existed and glad to see them gone. I even hope replacements are costed.

They create nothing but bloat for the game for rules such as how do you place them?, can you directly summon into combat since it is not a movement? .

You can have many many abilities that are fluffy and actually only work when they are answered correctly, which creates even more complex rules. Summoning is one of them and just too much hassle for what it brings to the game.

Tervigons ran out when they rolled a double on any of the 3 dice. It really wasn't a problem.

**ClockworkZion**

Off work now, so let's round up the Q&As for the day:

Damocles Gulf

Q: When you decide to show a battle report of the new 40k, could you have Tau vs Daemons, as these are the two of the most extreme armies, it would be good to see how the balance actually works.
A: Great idea! Chaos vs Xenos... whoever loses, the Imperium wins.

Q: That picture of Chaos ripping Tau to shreds... that's the best thing I've ever seen. Do daemons like the taste of fish?
A: Tau sushi is a delicacy in the Warp.

Q: DUNT CARE BOUT DESE FISH EADS! SHOW US SOME ORKS!!!! WAAAAAGGHHH!!!!!
A: OI! Keep da noize daan! I has a bangin' 'eadache after 'eadbuttin' that Ogryn da ovva day!

Q: Speaking of Tau, how do you pronounce it properly? btw even my gf laughed with the profile joke. hehehehe
A: Glad you liked it! We pronounce as if it rhymes with Cow. NOT so it rhymes with roar.

Q: Show me a rail gun profile !!! Need to know !! Who is the new leader ??? Farsight with shadowsun or new figure
A: We couldn't resist.

Q: DUNT CARE BOUT DESE FISH EADS! SHOW US SOME ORKS!!!! WAAAAAGGHHH!!!!!
A: OI! Keep da noize daan! I has a bangin' 'eadache after 'eadbuttin' that Ogryn da ovva day!

Q: did I miss last day's army focus or where there none to be found?

Will there be one today? ...
....Maybe two?
A: We're not doing one EVERY day...! You haven't missed one today

Q: Can we see an army showcase for Squats?
A: Sure thing. I think there's at least a couple in this picture...

Q: Dead Tau is good Tau
A: You know it.

Daemon Faction Focus
Q: Whoever took over the handling of social media and the new approach needs a raise that's for sure.
A: Would we tease you guys?! Would we?!*
THE VERY NEXT POST: *yes.

Q: To be entirely honest, I am only following this post for more comedy-gold comments by Warhammer 40,000 admins
A: Thanks- we're here all week! Try the steak!*
Next Post: *Actually, don't.. The Commissar's cat went missing yesterday...

Q: I know this will come off as fanboy-ing, but I really like the new community engagement from Games Workshop. Keep up the good work!
A: Thank you! Wanna know a secret... we're all massive Warhammer 40,000 fanboys too....

Q: Nick Brown this is for you.

Can we see a faction focus on adeptus sororitas next please?

much love if so
A: They are certainly getting one, have faith!

Q: so basically every 2 days there is going to be a Faction Focus? ok, I can candle that, just can't wait till you get to space wolves soon
A: Maaaaaybe....!

Q1: As someone who has only started the game about 2 weeks ago and selected the army i like. When will we be seeing the trynaid faction focus? I want to see what to what changes/focus of the nids so i can feel more confident in buying new models before the release of 8th ed
A1: The Tyranid Faction Focus is on the way, lumbering it's way towards us like a grumpy Tyrannofex.
Q2: Warhammer 40,000 You're going to use all the "adjective/tyranid unit name" at some point, You'd better release the tyranid article next so you don't have to think of new ones every day
A2: We aren't going to run out of Tyranid metaphors; we just keep em' coming... like an overly-productive Tervigon.

Q: Interesting, on a side note what about the huge explosion templates that we used to use with the knight titan, will they still be needed in 8th ?
A: Hey Matt - templates have gone from the new edition- it is a template-free zone!

Q: Great news everyone, the rumors of Slaanesh down fall were false.
Can we finally get a starter box for Slaanesh daemons like the other three?

Please Warhammer 40,000. We all want that great deal all three other gods already have at GWs.
A: Great point. We will pass this on to the chaps in the studio.

Q: Why don't your packaging peanuts taste like real peanuts?

A: Ummmm...Trent... we...we need to talk.

Q: Still waiting for the Deathwatch Faction Focus
A: Warhammer TV's Dan has been raving about how good Deathwatch are in the new edition. There will be a Faction Focus article on them... soon!

Q: FAN-TABULOUS!

Love it!!!
A: Whole new words from Horton

Q: Are khorne daemonkin still playable?
A: Yes, absolutely. We don't wanna make Khorne players angry... we value our skulls.

**kestral**

And Tervigons was an interesting variation from just transporting the gaunts.

**spiralingcadaver**

Mr_Rose wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
"The problem isn't that summoning costs 0 points, it works in other games. It's just you should have to pay something for it."

What?

Points aren't the only resource in a game; summoning for no points can be balanced if it negatively impacts some other thing.

Exactly.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

BroodSpawn wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Or maybe the Tervigon could lose a wound everytime it spawns new Gaunts?

If you want to make bug Tyranid creatures worth it, having them hurt themselves for the in-lore function they're meant to provide seems counter-productive.

I mean in lieu of making you pay points for the models it spawns, or building that point cost directly into the tervigon itself.

The is a precedent for this I think, isn't this how the Necron Spyder worked way back in 4th ed when it spawned scarabs?

And in lord of the rings sbg there's a Spider Queen monster which loses a wound in return for spawning spider brood swarms. (Not directly relevant to 40k I know but I bring it up to illustrate that GW has done it before).

**ClockworkZion**

I can understand why some people may feel put off by Tervigons producing free models, but let's be honest: the function was a part of its cost when it first came out. You'd get on average 1-2 spawnings out of it and that was it.

Frankly it'd be more well rounded as a Tyranid Ghost Ark that could carry Gaunts and spit out replacement models. It's a function that could be pushed into the cost of Tervigon and move it into the Transport category so you can't take one unless you've taken another unit. Make it so it can only heal existing units and it becomes even more restrictive, but more utilitarian than before. I'm pretty sure a Capacity 20 transport that can potentially heal a unit of Gaunts 1D3 models (or 2D3 models but it takes a wound if it rolls doubles due to pulling a spincter) would be a fair, fluffy and balanced way to put them on the table.

At least that's my point of view. Obvious others disagree.

That aside, Endless Swarm was an upgrade from the 4th edition codex. You got units back with all their upgrades but it cost a fair chunk per model in the unit. I could see stuff like this coming back, but if it does it feels like it should be a flat cost for the unit (pushing people to running large hordes instead of MSUs to abuse the ability).

**Rippy**

Woo was worried my Nurgle lads wouldn't have their FNP, this shows good hope if the Daemons retain it