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The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.

My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:

Stormsurge:

10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).

Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).

Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.

Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.

Markerlights:

We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).

We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.

Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.

Crisis Suits:

3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Sniper Drones:

They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).

The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.

I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.

Jet Pack infantry:

Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).

For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.

That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.

For the Greater Good:

We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.

There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.



Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.

Nifty.

 Rippy wrote:

Reese wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

Reese wrote:
So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!

Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.

What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?

Yes, Primaris Marines are the profile that you personally think they should be based on nothing.

Old marines are following the rest of the Old stuff's update, IP AP5 is now AP-- etc.

Nice day to meet you too? Did you misunderstand my post? it was more of a tongue and cheek comment, so should I have added a smiley face?

But since you seem so interested in it, yes, that is my opinion. This is a forum to express that right? Since they are super soldiers, always seemed like marines should have two wounds. And since they were rebooting everything, was a chance to do it. (But with the advent of Primaris, I can understand why they did not)

And as someone who has lurked on this forum long enough, that really is not a lone opinion or "based on nothing."

My apologies, re-reading my comment it did sound snarky, but I didn't mean for it to be so!

Edit: Need more coffee before I start posting :(

No worries Rippy! Thought something was amiss based on what I've seen from following your posts in my lurking.

I know it is early over there. And thanks for updating the thread for everyone!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:



Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.

There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?

No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.

Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:



Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.

There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?

No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.

Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.

Or it could anyway and he didn't mention it for one of a myriad other reasons?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Crisis Suits:

Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Crisis Suits:

Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.

Yeah, but balanced by the fact that a lot more stuff does multiple wounds. Still a good point though.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Crisis Suits:

Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore.

No, but AP 4 will be reducing the Crisis Suit's armor save and (if the Tau Missile Pod is anything to go by) some previously 1-wound-causing weapons will be capable of inflicting multiple wounds.

It's too early to cry foul or fair, but it seems facially reasonable to presume 3 weapon crisis suits will be more expensive and (against some weaponry) no more durable to roughly equal shooting.


Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Crisis Suits:

Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.

Yeah, but balanced by the fact that a lot more stuff does multiple wounds. Still a good point though.

Mostly various flavors of special and heavy weapons over generic troop weapons which i think is cool.

i dont know if this is going to push heavy msu with lots of special weapons or not but its going to be interesting to see. so far it seems like the nothing will really die unless specifically targeted by specific weapons edition.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:

Stormsurge:

10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).

Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).

Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.

Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.

Markerlights:

We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).

We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.

Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.

Crisis Suits:

3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Sniper Drones:

They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).

The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.

I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.

Jet Pack infantry:

Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).

For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.

That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.

For the Greater Good:

We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.

There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.



Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.

Nifty.

If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.

ERJAK wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:



Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.

There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?

No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.

Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.

Or it could anyway and he didn't mention it for one of a myriad other reasons?

Hmmmm, it could be that he is AMAZING, at expressing without revealing. I used to work in the hush hush rooms in the Navy and you can tell that the author is actually really good as well as the 2-4 people that go over the dang thing to proof read are Great at this...

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.

Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.

Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:

Stormsurge:

10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).

Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).

Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.

Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.

Markerlights:

We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).

We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.

Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.

Crisis Suits:

3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Sniper Drones:

They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).

The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.

I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.

Jet Pack infantry:

Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).

For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.

That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.

For the Greater Good:

We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.

There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.



Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.

Nifty.

If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.

Excellent point, and good catch.

limiting the per-unit ML effectiveness by making the effect an army-wide bonus would be a good way to balance Markerlights out, and appears to be how they've done so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.

Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.

Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.

Does AoS have a similar "retreat from combat" mechanic?

If not, what could we possibly learn from AoS regarding that particular rules interaction?

But no, for sure, the explicit statement is just poor wording. Sure. We won't know until we see the rules.

where is the new Tau lore?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.

Here's what I suspect..
The basic "tactical" troops that don't come with special weapons.. but come in 5 man squads.. I think those are laid out that way and special weapon squads are laid out.. likely in 5 man squads.. All of that is to set up tooling for a future 10 man box when these guys take over as the new standard. That way you just have to swap out the second frame for special weapons or heavy weapons for future kit.. or even have the second frame feature assault options. While it could lead to quite a bit of stale model syndrome, it is perfectly logical from a logistics standpoint.

LightKing wrote:
where is the new Tau lore?

What new Tau lore?

There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.

The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My thoughts on the Tau faction focus:

Stormsurge:

10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).

Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).

Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.

Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.

Markerlights:

We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).

We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.

Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.

Crisis Suits:

3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.

Fly key word:

There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:

Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.

The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.

That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.

Sniper Drones:

They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).

The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.

I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.

Jet Pack infantry:

Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).

For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.

That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.

For the Greater Good:

We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.

There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.



Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.

Nifty.

If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.

Could mean that there are 2 types of Marker Light uses. Passive rerolls (Or something like that... Maybe "For the Greater Good" let's you Supporting Fire a unit with marker lights on it based on the number of lights on it?)

Then we could have Active uses such as lowering Cover

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

LightKing wrote:
where is the new Tau lore?

What new Tau lore?

There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.

The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.

Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.

Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.

Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.

Does AoS have a similar "retreat from combat" mechanic?

If not, what could we possibly learn from AoS regarding that particular rules interaction?

But no, for sure, the explicit statement is just poor wording. Sure. We won't know until we see the rules.

Flying in AoS is a classification Keyword, and doesn't confer anything besides being able to move over models instead of around when moving/piling in for attacks.

Here though, it's clearly Fly.

And as I've said before, Skinks have the 'Wary Fighter' ability in AoS, which allows them to move up to their full movement to leave combat in the Fight Phase, when it is their turn to strike. In yours or your opponents Fight phase.

They can then shoot in the subsequent shooting phase for you as they did not 'Reatreat'/'Fall Back'.

Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?

Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.

The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.

The Plasma Gun in the video is a Standard Tac Marine. That last image is 10 Primaris Marines with a Tac squad on each side of it. Pause it, look at the armor and size of the miniatures. From :36 to :38 on the video. The Primaris Marines look to be about a head taller. The only option I see they have is their leader has a power sword.

Justyn wrote:

The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.

The Plasma Gun in the video is a Standard Tac Marine. That last image is 10 Primaris Marines with a Tac squad on each side of it. Pause it, look at the armor and size of the miniatures. From :36 to :38 on the video. The Primaris Marines look to be about a head taller. The only option I see they have is their leader has a power sword.

Pretre posted it a little while back:

 pretre wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted:



Plasma.

They have super plasma guns. And I bet good money they have super everything-regular-marines-have-but-better.

they look really cool. Thanks for the image. But yeah Double Plus One Marines have to have Double Plus One gear. The Models are great. GWs inserting them into the setting, less so.

I still think that it will either be exactly the same as SM tacs ie 1 heavy and 1 special and there just not showing the others. Or it's full units of specials like heresy. Possibly through add on packs?

So, what’s a Primaris Space Marine?
These are a brand-new breed of warrior, commissioned by the Primarch Guilliman and
developed in secret on Mars for the past 10,000 years by Archmagos Dominus
Belisarius Cawl.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing
machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra
genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional
reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
Will there be multiple types of Primaris Space Marines?
You bet. So far you’ve seen the Intercessors, the line infantry clad in Mk X armour,
but there are plenty more on the way. And likely vehicles too...
Wait, Mk X armour?
Yup, these guys have new armour: combining the best bits of classic Horus Heresy-era
plate, with some fancy tech developed more recently.
Can I field a whole army of Primaris Marines?
You totally can. From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those
decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of
these new warriors. Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into
existing Battle Companies. And perhaps most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some
entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
I have an <insert favourite Chapter> army. Can I field Primaris Space Marines?
Any of the galaxy’s many hundreds of Codex Chapters can use Primaris Space
Marines, along with many of the less Codex-compliant ones like Dark Angels, Blood
Angels and Space Wolves.
So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space
Marines?
Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it
comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so
you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum
tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
What if I don’t want to use them?
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your
army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space
Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor
Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving
on.
Are the kits compatible with existing Space Marine kits?
Good Question. There are certainly elements of the existing Space Marines kits that
will be cross-compatible, while the new armour mark means that some parts won’t mix
as easily. Shoulder pads and helmets are the same scale, and will still work, whereas
the legs, torso and arms are different, and not quite as interchangeable. In terms of
the Primaris sets themselves, you’ll have loads of fun kit-bashing them.
Can I use these guys alongside my Astra Militarum army?
Yeah you can. These new Space Marines will be available to use alongside all Imperial
armies to fill some battlefield roles your army might normally struggle with.
Do the Primaris Space Marines play nice with the Adeptus Custodes?
They sure do. Many of the Emperor's elite golden guard are accompanying Gulliman
and the Primaris Space Marines on the Indomitus Crusade.
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you
not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle - we
guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in
the not too distant future.
Guilliman be blessed, these guys are rad! When can I get them?
Primaris Space Marines will be available alongside the new edition of Warhammer
40,000. Oh and while we’re on the subject, we’ll be announcing the release date
before the end of this month…

Justyn wrote:
they look really cool. Thanks for the image. But yeah Double Plus One Marines have to have Double Plus One gear. The Models are great. GWs inserting them into the setting, less so.

They will probably have the tripple shot plasma guns that Skiitari use.

Insert note about how Cawl outfitted them with it so it's fluffy.

So did I read the Tau article right and Marker lights only grant a reroll to hits now?

Just my two cents, but they may have dropped the drone controller simply because if sniper weapons are going to be an important part of the game, and Tau only get the drones to do it, most people are just going to use plastic drones with pulse rifles glued to them. The metal and resin sniper drone kits are simply too cost-prohibitive to be a spam-choice unit. It may hearken back to the original Dark Eldar razorwing flock rules and lack of reasonably-priced models.

NuMarines are interesting, but the lack of weapon options makes them more like Sigmarines than I would have imagined.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?

Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.

Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.