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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.

 Imateria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.

With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.

That said, all those MC's living large in previous editions will now have to live with degrading stats over time. So who knows what the situation will look like for any of them at this point (other than the Morkanaut of course).

 Ronin_eX wrote:
That said, all those MC's living large in previous editions will now have to live with degrading stats over time. So who knows what the situation will look like for any of them at this point (other than the Morkanaut of course).

Optimistically, it won't be that much changing, aside from makign them more in line with other MC's (which is now a null classification). Here's to smaller MC's lasting longer and making it across the board.

With degrading statlines and vehicles having higher numbers of wounds most of the big models will likely see an increase in their wound profiles.

I have a feeling that the Necron Obelisk may have the highest number of wounds save for any of the plastic models. Warlord Titan is likely to have an insane number in excess of 30.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player

Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.

Sidebar here, if anyone has thoughts or wants to discuss upcoming primarchs:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/721021.page#9259630

I suspect that knights will have one of the highest wound pools, matched or close to the same as a Mork/Gorkanaught, with toughness and save being primarily how GW determines how tough something can be, coupled with how it degrades.

Look at things like the Mork/Gorkanought stats listed previously. It's T:8 with 18 wounds and a 3+ save.



Ork vehicles, historically, were ramshackle and that made them peculiarly resilient in a lot of ways (Looking at the Stompa, as an example). I suspect that the Stormsurge will be a little less tough by way of fewer wounds (maybe 12 to 14), and reduced toughness (T:6 or T:7), but with a better save (I expect 2+).

Similarly, I suspect that Wraithknights will have an unusually high toughness, such as T:9 or T:10, but with a 3+ save and possibly fewer wounds (16, or maybe fewer).

The Imperial Knight will have higher wounds than either, but perhaps only T:6 to T:8 at the highest and a 3+ save, BUT backed up by an Ion Shield invulnerable save to help.

Each will be resilient in their own way that is distinctly different from one another. I like that, as it makes each one it's own animal to deal with. High RoF weapons with the ability to punch through modest armor (Assault Cannons, Grav maybe) would be best suited for tackling something like a Stormsurge by pouring wounds onto the target while assault elements close in to finish it off in melee, whereas Lascannons would be best suited for hitting the Gork/Morkanaught and carving chunks of wounds out at long range with it's weaker base save of 3+.

It's a brave new world and I for one look forward to seeing how it plays.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

ERJAK wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.

Oh for sure. Which raises an interesting problem. How do they make the $150 Stormsurge worth taking instead of three $85 Riptides? Becausein 7th, they made the 3x $85 more viable (for obvious reasons). If they don't make the $150 SS powerful, no one will buy it (it is ugly as sin...), but if they make it too powerful, no one will buy 3x $85 Riptides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player

Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.

You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player

Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.

You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.

Welcome to Warhammer 40k, where "OP" codex only have OP 1-2 units or 1-2 detachment. Did you really think that Firewarriors, Vespids, Kroots, Krootox, Hammerheads, Skyrais or Piranhas are gonna burn Terra down? Riptidewing, Stormsurge and Commander with Drone-net do the trick for Tau. The rest of the Codex? From average to totally useless. Just like Space Marines with Librarian-Conclave, Deathbarkstar, and a Forgeworld's production capacity of free transports.
But this is offtopic, so I'll drop the topic here.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.

Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.

There is almost 0 chance that the storm surge will have more wounds than a knight. 7th wounds are not equivalent to HPs.

Why not? Lord of Change went from 5 to 16, more than triple. Who knows what any particular MC might get.

Rules are model driven when it comes to wounds. Lord of Change having way more wounds than a Great Unclean One because of the model size. That sort of thing.

I'm sure all the big tau kits will have impressive levels of wounds. Everything still seems within the same ball park as Age of Sigmar and all the big stuff there has loads of wounds. Then add in the high damage ranged weapon in 40k and I think we'll see some even higher than the highest in AoS (Archaon at 20).

So anyway, I hope Dark Angels get Stormravens. Deathwing Stormravens.

Hopefully tomorrow's article will make my deep strike heavy armies happy. Seriously, all but one(my Skitarii), favors dropping dudes in drop pods and jump packs.

 Carnikang wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.

Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.

I'm pretty sure they said that Knights had some of the most wounds. Guessing Stormsurge might be about the same.

But the Stormsurge is bigger. With gargantuan creatures and superheavy vehicles the baseline is 6 wounds or hullpoints.

It will have more health than a knight, but the knight will either be T8 3+ or T7 2+ instead of T6 3+

The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own “primarchs”...

 Rippy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.

With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.

Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.

It's in the "Movement" article.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.

With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.

Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.

It's in the "Movement" article.

The Stormsurge is unique in that it can excuse itself, and then shoot right away, from the rules we saw.

Whilst others are begrudgingly step aside, the Stormsurge politely excuses itself

 Rippy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.

With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.

Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.

It's in the "Movement" article.

The Stormsurge is unique in that it can excuse itself, and then shoot right away, from the rules we saw.

Whilst others are begrudgingly step aside, the Stormsurge politely excuses itself

It's unique now in that we have had that explicitly stated.

But in the same article we had "Fly" claimed to do the same thing for Crisis Suits, so don't start counting on Stormsurges to be amazing yet.

You have missed the point, if Crisis suits can do the same thing, then they should also be a wet paper bag, or pay for the abilities. (Not nearly as much so, as they don't have 10 guns etc).

Stormsurge can't walk away if it's surrounded.

 Rippy wrote:
You have missed the point, if Crisis suits can do the same thing, then they should also be a wet paper bag, or pay for the abilities. (Not nearly as much so, as they don't have 10 guns etc).

I think you've missed my point as well.

You're making an assumption that this is, somehow, a thing that will be exclusive to the Stormsurge.
I'm saying that it's too early to say that. Stormsurge is the first "big" thing we've really had looked at, and in an article with some very questionable writing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Stormsurge can't walk away if it's surrounded.

Ding ding ding.

You have to move a certain distance to leave a Combat.
You also have to be a certain distance away from enemies to fire during the Shooting phase.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Stormsurge can't walk away if it's surrounded.

Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think you've missed my point as well.

You're making an assumption that this is, somehow, a thing that will be exclusive to the Stormsurge.
I'm saying that it's too early to say that. Stormsurge is the first "big" thing we've really had looked at, and in an article with some very questionable writing.

I didn't miss your point, you took the fact I said the word "unique" and made my point about that, when it wasn't about that.

Yes, I shouldn't have said unique, but the point stands that it can excuse itself, then shoot. It should pay heavily for that ability, the 10 guns, and if it has armor etc, OR be like a wet paper towel.

Anyway, that is enough on this topic, as it has gone off the rails. Please PM me if you wish to discuss my incorrect use of the word "unique" further.

 Rippy wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Stormsurge can't walk away if it's surrounded.

Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.

The extra 3" move could wrap you around far enough that it's huge base can no longer move without clipping an enemy, but yea the risk needs to be weighed if you're too far out.

Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.

Oh for sure. Which raises an interesting problem. How do they make the $150 Stormsurge worth taking instead of three $85 Riptides? Becausein 7th, they made the 3x $85 more viable (for obvious reasons). If they don't make the $150 SS powerful, no one will buy it (it is ugly as sin...), but if they make it too powerful, no one will buy 3x $85 Riptides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.

What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player

Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.

You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.

You vastly overestimate both how important model cost is to the average wargamer and how good GW is at understanding 7th edition. There's no way in hell they purposely made riptide wing better than a stormsurge, they didn't have anywhere near fine enough control for that.

I will say it is bullgak that people go to marines first as an example of getting 'free points' when daemons can summon 1000pts per turn pretty easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.

Yeah crisis suits, stormsurge can't fly.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.

Right, but if iirc the stormsurge doesn't fly.

Doh beat me to it.

Do you really think they mean fly as in "Fly, you fools!"? It might not literally fly, but it might fire up some jump jets or something.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Do you really think they mean fly as in "Fly, you fools!"? It might not literally fly, but it might fire up some jump jets or something.

No, we just read the article. The stormsurge gets to retreat due to it's 'walking battleship' special rule, whereas suits and drones may retreat and shoot due to having the 'fly' keyword.

Retreating and shooting with the stormsurge ought to be quite difficult since it can't move over enemy models.

ERJAK wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Do you really think they mean fly as in "Fly, you fools!"? It might not literally fly, but it might fire up some jump jets or something.

No, we just read the article. The stormsurge gets to retreat due to it's 'walking battleship' special rule, whereas suits and drones may retreat and shoot due to having the 'fly' keyword.

Retreating and shooting with the stormsurge ought to be quite difficult since it can't move over enemy models.

Ah, I was getting my wires crossed.

There is something wierd to me about needing to back a hive tyrant up with gaunts or a squad of khorne berzerkers with cultists just to give the enemy nowhere to go so they dont jet away from a unit thats supposed to be brutally efficient in close combat.