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 Deadshot wrote:

BertBert wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Love what I'm seeing with nids so far. The only thing I'm kinda bummed about is that Swarmlord doesn't dish out any mortal wounds.

"...Mr. Swarmlord brings the pain in combat as well. With a base of Strength of 8, 7 Attacks, hitting on a 2+, with an AP value of -3 and D6 damage a pop..."

I don't think mortal wounds are required

I would have prefered D3 mortal wounds over D6. His bonesabres have forced rerolling invulerable saves in his previous incarmations, and have Instant Death, so this would be one of the few weapons that absolutely should have got Mortal Wounds

A machine with 7 attacks, hitting on a 2+ and with strength 8 that does D6 damage per wound, for a potential 42 wounds caused in combat, does not need to be upgraded by turning those 42 potential wounds to 21 Mortal wounds. I don't care how good the swarm lord is, he shouldn't be able to kill any of the other CC monsters in the game without some form of a fight, such as RG, a blood thirster, an avatar etc etc. It should certainly be able to vanquish any of those foes, but it shouldn't be as easy as just getting it into combat.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm still kind of sad about AV being gone. It doesn't matter on superlight vehicles or things like Land Raiders but for Leman Russes it really kills some tactical depth (even though anything can kill anything). Before it took some dedicated anti-tank to kill a squad of advancing Russes from the front, but if you got behind them a marine could punch one to death.

We still don't know that there won't be some sort of general "outflanking" rule where you get bonuses to damage if you can surround a unit with your own troops.
I mean there probably won't be such a rule since it might be quite difficult to pin down in text, but it could happen….

Meh 40k 8th the bumper car edition.

Shooty armies without open top transports or maybe fortifactions are toast, I guess GW have a lot of vehicle kits they need to shift.

Also I find it amazing that the 1st faction focus that shows a marked improvement for an army is one that a main member of the testers use, I am shocked I tell you shocked.

Especially after the Dark Eldar one amounted to we know they were a bit gak but there awesome now as they can still do what they did in previous editions.

Seems like the massive swing back to bring a majority of assault units or get kurb stomped by combo charging transports and assault units.

So to sum so far you are going to need a tran$port for every unit in your army or an exspen$ive fortifaction to hide behind.

Also while your at it don't forget to replace your minimarines with the new and improved Prima$ Re$tartes.

Shooty armies need not apply for this edition as they are literally just speed bumps. So you may as well just $tart a new army for a new edition, however remember now we are going to get a new edition every 12 months so put some cash aside for that next swinging change I mean balance pass new army.

So against a shooty army unless overwatch is at full BS and includes heavy weapons is there any reason not to just load up your transports charge down the middle dismount ram the transports stopping the opponent from doing anything and the charge the troops the following turn.

How will 2 assault armies against each other turn out?

I can now see.why games only last 60-90 minutes.

Yeap that's his subtle bias I was telling you about. Sometimes he doesn't even realize he is doing it.

I hate they gave the Frontline guys dejour testing capability. It was often the wider ITC community and player base that made rulings on the polls not Frankie (fairly unbiased honestly) and Reece (in particular not so unbiased) writing all of them. I don't think Reece is trying to be unbiased on purpose, but he is just a very excited individual who sometimes can't take that step back to objectively look at things as well as Frankie or some of the other tournament folks. I mean for god sake he has claimed every single unit previewed is going to be awesome and amazing. That's not how math works. Preliminary math shows the space marine power axes probably going to be the meta weapon of choice.

Tau fly is useless. None of our units with fly are capale of surviving this level of assault. Also the nids will have softening firepower on the way to us as well.

10 pages ago= CC IS WORTHLESS
Now = CC IS OVERPOWERED

SeanDrake wrote:
Meh 40k 8th the bumper car edition.

Shooty armies without open top transports or maybe fortifactions are toast, I guess GW have a lot of vehicle kits they need to shift.

Also I find it amazing that the 1st faction focus that shows a marked improvement for an army is one that a main member of the testers use, I am shocked I tell you shocked.

Especially after the Dark Eldar one amounted to we know they were a bit gak but there awesome now as they can still do what they did in previous editions.

Seems like the massive swing back to bring a majority of assault units or get kurb stomped by combo charging transports and assault units.

So to sum so far you are going to need a tran$port for every unit in your army or an exspen$ive fortifaction to hide behind.

Also while your at it don't forget to replace your minimarines with the new and improved Prima$ Re$tartes.

Shooty armies need not apply for this edition as they are literally just speed bumps. So you may as well just $tart a new army for a new edition, however remember now we are going to get a new edition every 12 months so put some cash aside for that next swinging change I mean balance pass new army.

So against a shooty army unless overwatch is at full BS and includes heavy weapons is there any reason not to just load up your transports charge down the middle dismount ram the transports stopping the opponent from doing anything and the charge the troops the following turn.

How will 2 assault armies against each other turn out?

I can now see.why games only last 60-90 minutes.

Blah, blah, blah. Doom and gloom! World is ending! Just a few weeks ago we had people complaining that shooting is too good and there's no way assault would work. But here we have, more depression and negativity about something we haven't even played yet.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Interesting

So you can move and shoot normally with OT vechicles - guess just the -1 for Heavy weapons

Just don't roll a 1 for the character on baord when it blows up

Hopefully, its like the Kharadron Overlords ships where you roll for all model in the transport; add up the "1" roll then allocate the wounds as you see fit.

RoninXiC wrote:
10 pages ago= CC IS WORTHLESS
Now = CC IS OVERPOWERED

I don't know if this high level of power will apply to all the assault factions. So far I think Nids are super powerful. As a Tau player I won't be able to easily inflict fear casualties on them with my ranged weapons to thin down huge swarms and they double move at crazy speeds. I got maybe a turn or two tops until they reach me and I I start flying my models off the table for all the use that rule seems to be.

Edit
Actually I thought the Tau would be pretty weak a few weeks ago. I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt since some people made a few more arguments of how things could go down. Things have not gone down that way. I am back in the camp that the Tau are going to over nerfed and some melee armies like Nids over buffed.

Edit2
i think the Tau and Dark Eldar are probably going to end up some of the weaker faction this initial first year of 8th. Hopefully there is some huge thing the two player bases of these factions is missing in the considerations so that the game is as balanced as the hype claims, but every thing I see makes me doubt that.

I'm not sure how many dozens of pages back the size comparison discussions started but could someone explain to me what the 4th from last and the last 2 models are?

Are they the standard tactical marine, the newly released assault marine and newly released devestator marine?

And does anyone know where the newly released Rubric Marines would fit on this scale? Are the new Shkmet terminators as small as those shown?

 Gamgee wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
10 pages ago= CC IS WORTHLESS
Now = CC IS OVERPOWERED

I don't know if this high level of power will apply to all the assault factions. So far I think Nids are super powerful. As a Tau player I won't be able to easily inflict fear casualties on them with my ranged weapons to thin down huge swarms and they double move at crazy speeds. I got maybe a turn or two tops until they reach me and I I start flying my models off the table for all the use that rule seems to be.

We don't know nearly enough about the new Tau to make an informed judgement about any of this.

SeanDrake wrote:
Meh 40k 8th the bumper car edition.

Shooty armies without open top transports or maybe fortifactions are toast, I guess GW have a lot of vehicle kits they need to shift.

Also I find it amazing that the 1st faction focus that shows a marked improvement for an army is one that a main member of the testers use, I am shocked I tell you shocked.

Especially after the Dark Eldar one amounted to we know they were a bit gak but there awesome now as they can still do what they did in previous editions.

Seems like the massive swing back to bring a majority of assault units or get kurb stomped by combo charging transports and assault units.

So to sum so far you are going to need a tran$port for every unit in your army or an exspen$ive fortifaction to hide behind.

Also while your at it don't forget to replace your minimarines with the new and improved Prima$ Re$tartes.

Shooty armies need not apply for this edition as they are literally just speed bumps. So you may as well just $tart a new army for a new edition, however remember now we are going to get a new edition every 12 months so put some cash aside for that next swinging change I mean balance pass new army.

So against a shooty army unless overwatch is at full BS and includes heavy weapons is there any reason not to just load up your transports charge down the middle dismount ram the transports stopping the opponent from doing anything and the charge the troops the following turn.

How will 2 assault armies against each other turn out?

I can now see.why games only last 60-90 minutes.

-Unlimited over watch
-can move and shoot heavy weapons
-IC give bubble effects and cant be picked out when standing inside of larger groups.
-universal split fire.

Yep, anything that doesent drive a tank or try to bonk you on the head is fethed

I love the hilarious amounts of knowledge people seem to have about what the metagame will be like when stuff like point values hasn't even been revealed yet

Really fun to read as people's opinions and the general consensus seems to fluctuate almost hourly but still maintain the same amount of absolutely certainty of the situation each and every time

Nvs wrote:
I'm not sure how many dozens of pages back the size comparison discussions started but could someone explain to me what the 4th from last and the last 2 models are?

Are they the standard tactical marine, the newly released assault marine and newly released devestator marine?

And does anyone know where the newly released Rubric Marines would fit on this scale? Are the new Shkmet terminators as small as those shown?

They are the current marine (last from end) and a current torso with the HH terminator legs (last model) upscaled to the primaris marine. You can see the breaks in the legs and torso.

 theharrower wrote:
So charging a vehicle into close combat and disembarking troops next turn will be a thing. It'll just be dangerous if you lose the vehicle.

Of course what is stopping opponent from simply surrounding your rhino/whatever and then troops inside have no room to disembark and charge?

Assuming troops can even disembark from vehicle that is locked in close combat.

 JohnU wrote:
Now just need to know if a transport being in combat prevents passengers from disembarking.

The tyrgon rules likely tell you everything you need to know. You can probably get out, but whatever can't fit dies.

RoninXiC wrote:
10 pages ago= CC IS WORTHLESS
Now = CC IS OVERPOWERED

It didn't get old

I assume that my short distance shooting movile Tau army is gona be mid tier then no matter what?

 davou wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Why do genestealers have an invul save? what's the fluff perspective of this?

The rules of a game don't need a fluff justification, and in fact in the past when that was blindly applied it resulted in a broken ass game. They have an invuln save because they are decently expensive and need to weather a bunch of shooting before they get to do their work.

As if. If you want to take out fluff might just as well play with chess. You know there's no reason you cannot make things work without breaking fluff?

Now albeit you can easily fluff justify it with their super speed but claiming fluff needs not to be followed is bad logic. You can make it balanced AND fluffy so why not? Play chess if you just want abstract game without any background consideration.

changemod wrote:
Combo:

Deep strike in a Trygon turn one.

Have the Swarmlord move, then in the shooting phase have him select the Trygon move.

Guaranteed charge.

Doubtful. I bet that ability works on infantry only or "not monsters".

Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Combo:

Deep strike in a Trygon turn one.

Have the Swarmlord move, then in the shooting phase have him select the Trygon move.

Guaranteed charge.

Doubtful. I bet that ability works on infantry only.

Well the ability works on the Swarmlord.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BertBert wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Love what I'm seeing with nids so far. The only thing I'm kinda bummed about is that Swarmlord doesn't dish out any mortal wounds.

"...Mr. Swarmlord brings the pain in combat as well. With a base of Strength of 8, 7 Attacks, hitting on a 2+, with an AP value of -3 and D6 damage a pop..."

I don't think mortal wounds are required

I would have prefered D3 mortal wounds over D6. His bonesabres have forced rerolling invulerable saves in his previous incarmations, and have Instant Death, so this would be one of the few weapons that absolutely should have got Mortal Wounds

A machine with 7 attacks, hitting on a 2+ and with strength 8 that does D6 damage per wound, for a potential 42 wounds caused in combat, does not need to be upgraded by turning those 42 potential wounds to 21 Mortal wounds. I don't care how good the swarm lord is, he shouldn't be able to kill any of the other CC monsters in the game without some form of a fight, such as RG, a blood thirster, an avatar etc etc. It should certainly be able to vanquish any of those foes, but it shouldn't be as easy as just getting it into combat.

Mortal wounds seems to be something limited to psychic powers to be honest. The reaper chain sword didn't even get mortal wounds and it was a strength D weapon!

It the knight doesn't even inflict mortal wounds in CC their is no reason for the swarm lord. 8th's weapon and unit stats are a lot more granular now.

SeanDrake wrote:
Meh 40k 8th the bumper car edition.

Shooty armies without open top transports or maybe fortifactions are toast, I guess GW have a lot of vehicle kits they need to shift.

Also I find it amazing that the 1st faction focus that shows a marked improvement for an army is one that a main member of the testers use, I am shocked I tell you shocked.

Especially after the Dark Eldar one amounted to we know they were a bit gak but there awesome now as they can still do what they did in previous editions.

Seems like the massive swing back to bring a majority of assault units or get kurb stomped by combo charging transports and assault units.

So to sum so far you are going to need a tran$port for every unit in your army or an exspen$ive fortifaction to hide behind.

Also while your at it don't forget to replace your minimarines with the new and improved Prima$ Re$tartes.

Shooty armies need not apply for this edition as they are literally just speed bumps. So you may as well just $tart a new army for a new edition, however remember now we are going to get a new edition every 12 months so put some cash aside for that next swinging change I mean balance pass new army.

So against a shooty army unless overwatch is at full BS and includes heavy weapons is there any reason not to just load up your transports charge down the middle dismount ram the transports stopping the opponent from doing anything and the charge the troops the following turn.

How will 2 assault armies against each other turn out?

I can now see.why games only last 60-90 minutes.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Love what I'm seeing with nids so far. The only thing I'm kinda bummed about is that Swarmlord doesn't dish out any mortal wounds.

Thank god. Less things do that the better chance we have game doesn't degenerate into mortal wound generation arms race. Who generates most mortal wounds per turn wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flood wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about Warriors being squishy, they'll be surrounded by gribblies and only really vulnerable to snipers until their battleshock-proof horde-shield is diminished.

Are warriors going to be characters? If not then they likely be targeted just like you can target terminators behind tacticals.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Combo:

Deep strike in a Trygon turn one.

Have the Swarmlord move, then in the shooting phase have him select the Trygon move.

Guaranteed charge.

Doubtful. I bet that ability works on infantry only.

Well the ability works on the Swarmlord.

Yea, but I bet he isn't the same class as a Tyrgon.

SeanDrake wrote:
Meh 40k 8th the bumper car edition.

Shooty armies without open top transports or maybe fortifactions are toast, I guess GW have a lot of vehicle kits they need to shift.

Also I find it amazing that the 1st faction focus that shows a marked improvement for an army is one that a main member of the testers use, I am shocked I tell you shocked.

Especially after the Dark Eldar one amounted to we know they were a bit gak but there awesome now as they can still do what they did in previous editions.

Seems like the massive swing back to bring a majority of assault units or get kurb stomped by combo charging transports and assault units.

So to sum so far you are going to need a tran$port for every unit in your army or an exspen$ive fortifaction to hide behind.

Also while your at it don't forget to replace your minimarines with the new and improved Prima$ Re$tartes.

Shooty armies need not apply for this edition as they are literally just speed bumps. So you may as well just $tart a new army for a new edition, however remember now we are going to get a new edition every 12 months so put some cash aside for that next swinging change I mean balance pass new army.

So against a shooty army unless overwatch is at full BS and includes heavy weapons is there any reason not to just load up your transports charge down the middle dismount ram the transports stopping the opponent from doing anything and the charge the troops the following turn.

How will 2 assault armies against each other turn out?

I can now see.why games only last 60-90 minutes.

of course it's all a cash grab why not post that to gdub's Customer service maybe they will give you a free band aid for your butthurt. Seriously flip flop whine is bad enough but back to cash grab. Ffs gw are a company they need to sell to exist. But none of this is screaming a cash grab, numarines are just gw trying to fix the fuggy scale, with out the fantasy reboot debacle, try fielding metal termies on 25mm bases next to modern plastic on 40mm bases - it's called progress.

It doesn't matter what is done, because with enough effort you can spin anything into a cash grab.

Something got nerfed? Oh, that's because they want to sell other stuff, now!

 Lockark wrote:
Mortal wounds seems to be something limited to psychic powers to be honest. The reaper chain sword didn't even get mortal wounds and it was a strength D weapon!

It the knight doesn't even inflict mortal wounds in CC their is no reason for the swarm lord. 8th's weapon and unit stats are a lot more granular now.

DOn't forget mandiblaster! Because obviously low level anti-infantry weapon whose point was to give advantage against infantry by taking out few foes before combat needs to be able to cause mortal wounds. Guess we can chalk that one up for eldar bonus.

How dare they make a solid ruleset that makes me want to spend money on their models. Devils, they be!

tneva82 wrote:


As if. If you want to take out fluff might just as well play with chess. You know there's no reason you cannot make things work without breaking fluff?

Now albeit you can easily fluff justify it with their super speed but claiming fluff needs not to be followed is bad logic. You can make it balanced AND fluffy so why not? Play chess if you just want abstract game without any background consideration.

Fluff is important, but it should play second fiddle to a game that works. If the fluff needs to take a knock on he head to make sure that the game is well running, then it absolutely should. If they can make the rules in a way that is fluffy and runs well, then even better, but rules design should favor efficient well running rules. We've had ages of fluff winning out over rules, and it game very close to destroying the whole thing.

If the rules aren't as important as the fluff, then why not just treated the game like a 5 year old playing with GI-joes; or do you realize how terrible that chess argument is?

 davou wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


As if. If you want to take out fluff might just as well play with chess. You know there's no reason you cannot make things work without breaking fluff?

Now albeit you can easily fluff justify it with their super speed but claiming fluff needs not to be followed is bad logic. You can make it balanced AND fluffy so why not? Play chess if you just want abstract game without any background consideration.

Fluff is important, but it should play second fiddle to a game that works. If the fluff needs to take a knock on he head to make sure that the game is well running, then it absolutely should. If they can make the rules in a way that is fluffy and runs well, then even better, but rules design should favor efficient well running rules. We've had ages of fluff winning out over rules, and it game very close to destroying the whole thing.

If the rules aren't as important as the fluff, then why not just treated the game like a 5 year old playing with GI-joes; or do you realize how terrible that chess argument is?

IF you have rules that don't match the fluff AND work you have game designer that has failed in his job. Period. End of story. It's not impossible to have both of them.

There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for rules to not follow fluff except pure incompetence by the game designer. They are not mutually exclusive. Only foolish game designer would think they are.

We got bad rules because you know what? GW game designers aren't quality game designers. Also they don't play like tournament players play. They have their own different meta that means that even units tournament players know suck are actually useful. GW designers could have said screw the fluff, rules only and they would still have got just as big mess if not bigger.

tneva82 wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Mortal wounds seems to be something limited to psychic powers to be honest. The reaper chain sword didn't even get mortal wounds and it was a strength D weapon!

It the knight doesn't even inflict mortal wounds in CC their is no reason for the swarm lord. 8th's weapon and unit stats are a lot more granular now.

DOn't forget mandiblaster! Because obviously low level anti-infantry weapon whose point was to give advantage against infantry by taking out few foes before combat needs to be able to cause mortal wounds. Guess we can chalk that one up for eldar bonus.

I'll repeat this again.

Coming from AoS let me tell you that inflicting mortal wounds has nothing to do with the strenght of a weapon. Mandiblaster inflicting mortal wounds while a reaper chainsword does not, is perfectly expected.

Mortal wounds are a mechanic used to skip the hit/wound/save step when inflicting damage with special rules, else that damage would have needed too much time to be resolved. That's it. Special rules 99% of the time will inflict damage by means of mortal wounds. Spell/powers inflict mortal wounds because you did already roll for that attack, in the form of a cast roll.
There are other ways other than mortal wounds to make an attack really powerfull, just look at the swarmlord. Mortal wounds are not there to provide powerful attacks.
Very few attacks inflict mortal wounds, and they usually represent exotic attacks. Gaze of death of the C'than shard will be one, without a doubt.
The death of a tervigon will inflict mortal wounds on the termagants.