Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving on past Power levels, I am wondering if Assault Weapons will gain a gunslinger rule to balance them agaianst the buffs other weapon types have now.

That or bespoke rules let you shoot all weapons on certain models (keywords like Gravis, Stormsurge, Crisis).

Or as seems more likely - models can shoot with all their weapons at all times.

 Deadshot wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
Assault Marines, or more specifically their jetpack, were bulky models correct? The distinct lack of bulky on the inceptors is interesting. Sideways Transport capacity buff?

In 5th-7th editions, what transport was allowed to carry assault marines with jump packs?


Honest question.

Stormravens, Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks, Stormbird, Caestus Assault Ram, Corvus Blackstar, Stormwolf (Or was it the Stormfang?). Necron Night Scythes were also able to carry JI. It was generally just flyers but notably the Stomraven was the first to specifically allow it.

Like Deadshot said for examples.
Bulky counts as 2 for capacity.
Very bulky counts as 4 for capacity.
Assault Marines were bulky, and the reason given for them being bulky was the jetpack.
Inceptors also have a jetpack but bulky or anything saying counts as two for Transport capacity is missing.
If a model that should have some sort of bulky or equivalent rule doesn't, will this also be true for other bulky/very bulky models?
Termies, MANZ, etc.

It is entirely possible they are restricted from using a transport but since there are some transports that could theoretically carry them it is at least a little curious.

Youn wrote:
Heh, When I came up originally saying the incessors were 105 pts. People said that I was just making up numbers. Which is true based off an educated guess.

Marines are 13 points.
Primaris marines are +1 wound and +1 attack. Which I bet puts them at 20 points per model.

A jump pack on a character in 7th was +15 points. So, my guess was that they were 20 pts + 15 points = 35 points per model.

3 x 35pts = 105 pts. Assuming you discount the jump pack to make it Jump pack + Assault Bolter = +15 pts.

This leave the cost of Gravis armor on them. So.. yeah, I revise my cost to 40pts per model. Or 120pts for the squad.

That would be terribly undercosted if the marines as baseline are still roughly the same. These guys should be about 55 points per model.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
So should we expect a flood of information on 8th this weekend ? And next week as retailers get their demo rule books and indices?

I expect seeing all the rules in the box set this weekend from WarhammerFest, then everything else next weekend.

Well, you do need your new jetbike spam right?

And yeah, I would expect them to release the pamphlets (Primaris and DG) plus the 12 page rules this weekend. As there is no real way for them to keep those secret. Even if the store owners were threatened, there is no way all the stores that have demo boxes can prevent someone with a smart phone from taking pictures of the entire book this weekend.

 EnTyme wrote:

skarsol wrote:
So they keep saying there's no more USR's, but then the marines all have ATSKNF. Is that just the exception that proves the rule, or is there something I'm missing?

ATSKNF is an army rule, not a USR. It's a small, but important distinction.

Ahha! That's what I was missing, thanks.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving on past Power levels, I am wondering if Assault Weapons will gain a gunslinger rule to balance them agaianst the buffs other weapon types have now.

That or bespoke rules let you shoot all weapons on certain models (keywords like Gravis, Stormsurge, Crisis).

Or as seems more likely - models can shoot with all their weapons at all times.

That would make Marines and Sisters the champs of short range shooting if they could fire pistols and bolters at the same time..

And we all know Sisters can't anything nice, so this is likely not the case.

Since we see they have the Keyword "X armor type" It is probably a safe bet that transports will say

Can transport "X armor types" or under "X armor type" it will say "Counts as 2,3,4 models when transported"

So on and so forth.

Also another interesting thing is that with the Faction Key words we can see they are tiered.

Space marines go:
So it goes Imperium, Astartes, Chapter

Thousand Sons went:
Chaos, Tzeentch, Heretic Astartes, Thousand Suns

I think that gives us a pretty good idea of how armies will be structured/interact with each other.

For those who keep thinking the tau suits being able to fire all weapons is related to a universal game rule, I would say that is a bit of a big leap.

Previously crisis suits could fire two weapons - so the three was the change.

It was mentioned that vehicles can fire all weapons - we will have to see if other models can.

I suspect they can - but just because tau suits can vehicles can does not mean we "know" all units can.

Do we know a tactical marine gets a bolt pistol.

I bet their dataslate says the following:

Each marine is armed with a boltgun and frag and krak grenades
Each Veteran Sargent is armed with a power sword and bolt pistol

One marine may replace his boltgun with a flamer, plasma gun, meltagun or grav-gun.
One marine per 10 may replace their boltgun with a Heavy bolter, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta or Gravcannon.
Any marine may change out his boltgun for a chainsword and bolt pistol.
The Veteran Sargent may replace his bolt pistol with a hand flamer, plasma pistol or grav pistol.
The Veteran Sargent may replace his power sword with a power axe, power maul, or power fist.
The Veteran Sargent may take a melta bomb.

This would solve the boltgun plus bolt pistol issue.

Youn wrote:
Do we know a tactical marine gets a bolt pistol.

I bet their dataslate says the following:

Each marine is armed with a boltgun and frag and krak grenades
Each Veteran Sargent is armed with a power sword and bolt pistol

One marine may replace his boltgun with a flamer, plasma gun, meltagun or grav-gun.
One marine per 10 may replace their boltgun with a Heavy bolter, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta or Gravcannon.
Any marine may change out his boltgun for a chainsword and bolt pistol.
The Veteran Sargent may replace his bolt pistol with a hand flamer, plasma pistol or grav pistol.
The Veteran Sargent may replace his power sword with a power axe, power maul, or power fist.
The Veteran Sargent may take a melta bomb.

This would solve the boltgun plus bolt pistol issue.

Honestly its not really a big deal. in the scheme of things getting that extra shot is not game breaking.

As far as transports go, it was mentioned last week in the QnA that there will be limits on the types of models that can get in a transport, heavily implying that whilst Bulky and the like are gone the effects will remain.

we know that Intercessor marines get bolt pistols and grenades

 Mr Morden wrote:
Still not sure how this works?

Hand to hand:

I note he has both Boltstorm Gauntlet and Power sword - do you choose which weapon you attack with or allocate your attacks between them?

They have not said, but I assume you choose like you do now.

Primaris Space Marines 2: Heretical Boogaloo
Q: Nice new info Warhammer 40,000, but there is still one question: how would the primaris marines fit into the (more or less rigid) structure of a codex chapter? Will there be an additional company for the primaris? Or will they replace battle casualties in the existing companies? And what about the command structure (Primaris Captains and Command squads)?
A: All will be revealed! The Chapter structure has been looked at and these guys fit in... but we can't quite say how yet...

These have gotten shorter lately, even without me cutting out the "MY FACTION NEXT PLEASE" comments.

Wonder if it's in the keywords for pistol or grenade.

As it would be weird that you could fire a pistol, a rapid fire weapon and throw a grenade all the same shooting phase.

I could see fire a bolt gun or fire a bolt pistol and throw a grenade.

don't see this posted yet: https://spikeybits.com/2017/05/breaking-first-full-view-8th-edition-quick-reference-card.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:





mortal wounds spill to other models that's wild

any confirmation yet on how charge moves work? Do you still get to move if you fail to connect?

Daedalus81 wrote:

Justyn wrote:

People keep going back and forth on this, as if the two are inconsistent. Maybe they're not? What if the way to reconcile it is that when they say that it does not account for wargear and upgrades, they're trying to say that it does not fluctuate based upon the number of wargear and upgrades you select, while the FB thing is saying "oh don't worry, we pegged the PL assuming you'd have take some ambiguous number of upgrades for that unit".

Pretty much exactly.

No, not exactly.

The same logic can be flipped on the Facebook guys to mean that they wanted you to know you can take anything and it doesn't change the assigned power level.

So, again, I ask - to which none have had a reply - which upgrade did they based the dreadnought power level upon? And the Rubrics?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:


So we should ignore all the Q&A info? No thanks, I think I'll use some logic and reasoning applied to both since when you do you realize that the two sources are not actually in conflict at all. Your just reading into it as if there is.

Ok, then answer my question above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And let's apply a little Occam's Razor here folks.

Did they do the math for the base unit or did they calculate every possible combination and come up with an average?

If we assume points mean anything, we can assume the most expensive loadout would be the best if points were not an object. So it would be easy to give a squad all possible options and give them a power level based off that load out. No need for complex math for that, optimal load out in a points system is based off utility per point. If points don't matter then you could just go with the best options.

So say you have a chapter master - you might not always take artificer armor, a bike, a storm shield, a powerfist, and lightning claw, and combi-weapon, digital weapons, melta bombs, master craft stuff etc. Because you have to pay for it, but if you didn't why wouldn't you take all the options possible? The only time this matters is when options are binary, you can only have one or the other, in these cases if points are meaningful we can assume the more expensive option is better. I will admit this hasn't necessarily been true, but presumably that is the intent. Thus the most expensive option is the best, and the most expensive loadout for a squad is the best, and we can base power level off that load out. Then pull back on some units that are unlikely to ever be fully kitted out (say deathcompany with 2 thunderhammers, jumpacks etc.).

By your argument points are meaningless because GW has no idea what is or is not effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 axisofentropy wrote:
don't see this posted yet: https://spikeybits.com/2017/05/breaking-first-full-view-8th-edition-quick-reference-card.html



mortal wounds spill to other models that's wild

Yeah wounds spill over, damage does not.

Hahaha do they know how far up "high orbit" is?

Interesting that there is no not that a roll of 6 always succeeds, this would indicate that a -1 to hit could make it impossible for some units to hit. In overwatch for example, if you can have a -1 to hit, no unit could hit you unless they have a buff to their overwatch roll. The same is true with save rolls, and wound rolls.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Justyn wrote:

People keep going back and forth on this, as if the two are inconsistent. Maybe they're not? What if the way to reconcile it is that when they say that it does not account for wargear and upgrades, they're trying to say that it does not fluctuate based upon the number of wargear and upgrades you select, while the FB thing is saying "oh don't worry, we pegged the PL assuming you'd have take some ambiguous number of upgrades for that unit".

Pretty much exactly.

No, not exactly.

The same logic can be flipped on the Facebook guys to mean that they wanted you to know you can take anything and it doesn't change the assigned power level.

So, again, I ask - to which none have had a reply - which upgrade did they based the dreadnought power level upon? And the Rubrics?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:


So we should ignore all the Q&A info? No thanks, I think I'll use some logic and reasoning applied to both since when you do you realize that the two sources are not actually in conflict at all. Your just reading into it as if there is.

Ok, then answer my question above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And let's apply a little Occam's Razor here folks.

Did they do the math for the base unit or did they calculate every possible combination and come up with an average?

I think GW Mather it or based on the maximum points value for the unit, or maybe an average of most points and least points?

It also helps that a lot of the weapons are more varied now, which dreadnought weapon would you say should cost the most points? If a grenade launcher is d6 strength 4 automatic hits now, is it really that much worse than a melta gun?

Either way some units in 40k, like IG vets, can double or even triple their points costs based on upgrades. If GW didn't account for this power levels are unbelievably unbalanced, they're the most unbalanced game mode GW has ever made including super formation 7th edition and unbound. The only thing less balanced is "bring what you have" complete free play.

You might say "yeah well that's why power levels are the worst thing GW could have done." but that really strikes me as having made up your mind and trying to find evidence to support your decision.

Well, they do have jet packs on their back and legs. I guess they could come from quite a distance away assuming they had enough air. Just need to point at a planet and push off the hull of the space ship. Given enough air you will enter the atmosphere or burn up on the way in.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Spoiler:

don't see this posted yet: https://spikeybits.com/2017/05/breaking-first-full-view-8th-edition-quick-reference-card.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:





mortal wounds spill to other models that's wildthree (3)

I hope they specifically address batch rolling and rolling saves before allocation in units with identical armor saves. Otherwise this set up takes longer and is more complicated than needs be.

 Not-not-kenny wrote:
Hahaha do they know how far up "high orbit" is?

Almost certainly no.

This is glorious. Look out sir is dead! DIE DIE DIE

That was the worst rule at the LVO. All kinds of stupid gamesmanship rolling 1 die at a time to flip over some wounds onto some sponge thing. It was [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express that thought. - Alpharius]

 Not-not-kenny wrote:
Hahaha do they know how far up "high orbit" is?

If Master Chief can survive falling from high orbit, I'm sure these Inceptors can.

Well...this is not helpful. It does not solve the lascannon conundrum.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 axisofentropy wrote:
don't see this posted yet: https://spikeybits.com/2017/05/breaking-first-full-view-8th-edition-quick-reference-card.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:





mortal wounds spill to other models that's wild

Well...this is not helpful. It does not solve the lascannon conundrum.

Which was what ?

 docdoom77 wrote:


I hope they specifically address batch rolling and rolling saves before allocation in units with identical armor saves. Otherwise this set up takes longer and is more complicated than needs be.

They did. If you read that they allocate wounds then roll saves then inflict damage.

So, in my example before were you received 1,1,2,3 damage on your primaris marines. It was done incorrectly.

You would do as follows;

1) Roll 12 to hits 9 hit.
2) Roll 9 wound rolls 4 actually wound
3) Allocate out 4 wounds starting at a single target.
4) Roll 4 saves
5) Roll damage 1,1,2,3 (Note in this case you cannot multi-roll this, you have to roll these individually removing a model once it dies)

The only way to speed up phase 5 is to roll 4 separately colored dice and say white, red, blue, green are my order of damage inflicted.