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 rippounet wrote:
Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.

I was think about running a Bad Moons army of MANz and Flash Gitz in Battlewagons. That might go before a lot of Space Marine armies.

(Of course without seeing more info on orks I have no idea what will be legal and what the point cost will be.)

 Kingsley wrote:
Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.

To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.

It is really a question of targets. Against Toughness 4-5 & 8-9, the Gravgun only suffers from less range and does more damage against 2+ & 3+ Save targets if you are not willing to risk blowing yourself up. Every time you need more damage for a Plasmagun, you need to risk death. This means Gravguns are the superior choice against heavy infantry, armored vehicles, and monsters since you have a chance of doing up to 3 wounds on a single shot. Plasma is better against light/medium infantry that only have 1 Wound.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).

Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.

While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?

Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.

Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.

So what are you seeing that looks so good?

Relentless is no longer a rule, and since DC aren't able to use Heavy Weapons, they take no penalty for moving and shooting. The fact they can fire their pistols in close combat is good, it effectively adds an additional attack, a potent one if they have a special pistol. DC can ignore any wound, including a mortal wound on a 6. Instant death is gone, so nothing takes that ability away. They are able to deep strike turn one and possibly even charge turn one, which is new for them. They are fast as hell otherwise. The DC Dread can consolidate 6" instead of 3", which means it can avoid a ton of overwatch. They all can benefit from Sanguinary Priests again, which means an additional +1 to Strength and the possibility of coming back from the dead.

Sanguinary Guard pump out a bunch of wounds now. That's way they cost more. Their Encarmine weapons deal d3 wounds per hit. Add in the Sanguinary Priest near them and they are putting out a lot of high strength, high AP attacks. Sanguinary Guard are in a good place. And if you put an Ancient near them, they are fearless.

And yes, we have seen the data sheets for the characters, and most of them are pretty good.

Just some background so you know where I am coming from/came from, I never played a game in 7th. I played 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, and quoit when I saw rules for 7th. I felt 6th was bad enough and they doubled down on all the bits I hated and added even more fat to the game. I played BA heavily in 5th and 6th, along with my first army from 2nd Deathwing. So if you see some stuff that looks out of whack, it might be because i'm looking at new stuff, stuff from 6th, and some of the stuff I saw from the 7th codex mixed in.

So, Firing pistols is decent, the more I think about it though the more I'm beginning to feel like it's really a slight nerf over the extra CC attack. You can only fire the pistol in your shooting phase so if you get charged, your not firing it in the first round of CC, and If you charge, presumably you shot before the charge, which could possibly cause a failed charge if opponent removes enough front units, and then you get to fire them again in the 3rd round of CC. I just feel like the extra attack was better for units that had special CCWs. I might change my mind on this with some play but I'm on the fence at the moment.

I don't care for 6+ FNP, at one point it was 4+, which was OP for sure, then it went to 5+ and it felt pretty good there, and now at 6+ i don't think it's going to be much of a factor with all the extra buffs shooting has gotten. I hope I'm wrong but I can do the math on that and its not great.

The turn 1 DS charge is awesome, and something CC armies needed desperately to compete with shooting armies in 40k. Having said that it's fairly unreliable since your going to need an 9+ roll on the dice unless they have something like decent of angels that mitigates it somewhat. hopefully we do.

We'll see how good the 6" consolidation on DC dreads is, I mean, you've got to finish the squad off, and have opponents units within 7" of him. Consolidation into CC was awesome in 4th ed.(?) but it was a different game then too.

The rest of the stuff I can't comment on because I haven't seen the data sheets for the sang guard, characters etc etc, can you point me in their direction so I can check them out? Thanks.
EDIT: NM, just found the data sheets, going to read them now!

NamelessBard wrote:
As others have said, it hardly looks lame especially not at that point cost.

Perhaps that's true, perhaps it's not. I wouldn't know, because I haven't seen them, hence the reason I asked for someone to point me in the right direction. You seem to know where they are, so maybe look at the first part of my post and answer that.

 Kingsley wrote:
Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.

GW balances things using a pendulum system. Rather than fix problems, they swing hard, so that what they're fixing becomes basically irrelevant.

They're also good at overbalancing. Grav Gun shots were too dangerous, and there were too many of them. A reasonable person might try to fix one by limiting the other (lower damage, but still the same amount of shots, or same damage, but fewer shots). GW often opts to 'fix' both.

This is why we get 8th Ed Grav-Guns the way they are.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Legion of the Damned show up yet?

Just the base points (25 each, not including any wargear). I don't think they'll change much staying around that point value (marine stats, 3++, ignore cover modifiers).
How they deep strike is probably the only really interesting bit.

Very sry. I'm sure I'm missing it, but has a data sheet for tactical or assault marines been leaked yet?

Tactical one was up on the warhammer community site, one of the early articles.

Have you see that for named character the wargear is include in point cost so magnus is realy only 415 points for exemple.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333990-leaked-chaos-space-marine-rules/

 Flood wrote:
Tactical one was up on the warhammer community site, one of the early articles.

I remember seeing stat line, but not the data sheet. Thanks. I'll go article diving.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
As others have said, it hardly looks lame especially not at that point cost.

Perhaps that's true, perhaps it's not. I wouldn't know, because I haven't seen them, hence the reason I asked for someone to point me in the right direction. You seem to know where they are, so maybe look at the first part of my post and answer that.

Not confirmed:

Carnifex
67 points M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+

It doesn't degrade
if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3 Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3 Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Tactical one was up on the warhammer community site, one of the early articles.

I remember seeing stat line, but not the data sheet. Thanks. I'll go article diving.

My mistake, it is just the statline.

How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn. It means that each T7 3+/5+ wound costs about 10 points each if you assume it heals even once. Sounds pretty efficient to me, even with multiwound guns all over the place.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?

They'll have key word "Blood Angel" where <chapter> should be. But don't hold out for anything decent. Probably just furious charge if we are lucky....

Death company seeming to lose feel no pain is the biggest bummer here, unless black rage has that built in.

tneva82 wrote:

Or decide not to fight it, take mind set you go second and just flood in units.

That's actually a pretty good plan. I guess I'll do just that.

On a different note, I noticed that the icon of Khorne will be sweet on deepstriking units (easier to get in HtH). Could be nasty on raptors or terminators...

warboss wrote:

Because elite armies are by their very nature better trained and equipped hence the elite description? In previous editions you had a 1-3 d6 strategy rating that you rolled for first turn... elite armies had 3d6 and horde ones had 1d6 to better reflect how unwieldy each force.

Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to use the fluff here... too many possible counter-examples imho...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

Just remember... this edition has been "extensively" play tested.... So no this couldn't possibly be the case

 Therion wrote:
How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

I guess the heldrake will have to pay for its weapons as well, increasing the cost.

Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

You would be wrong. It has a 5+ invulnerable save from its Riptide Shield Generator, and Shielded Missile Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The only thing that mentions a 3+ invulnerable save is the Nova Shield which is gained by using the Nova Reactor.

 jamopower wrote:

 Therion wrote:
How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

I guess the heldrake will have to pay for its weapons as well, increasing the cost.

You're right, but I don't think the 'claws' cost anything and the stock autocannon probably doesn't cost much if anything at all.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

Could be a native 5++ that can Nova to a 3++? The 3's and 5's look very similar to me on some of the lower res images.

Edit: ninja'd

 l1ttlej wrote:

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?

They'll have key word "Blood Angel" where <chapter> should be. But don't hold out for anything decent. Probably just furious charge if we are lucky....

Death company seeming to lose feel no pain is the biggest bummer here, unless black rage has that built in.

here ya go.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/tau-bloody-angels-space-marine-leaks/

Caederes wrote:

Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.

It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.

 Therion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.

It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.

In what way was I implying it isn't a good unit?
I'm just saying that it's not quite as cheap as it looks to be.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

Could be a native 5++ that can Nova to a 3++? The 3's and 5's look very similar to me on some of the lower res images.

Edit: ninja'd

Caederes wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.

If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW .

You would be wrong. It has a 5+ invulnerable save from its Riptide Shield Generator, and Shielded Missile Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The only thing that mentions a 3+ invulnerable save is the Nova Shield which is gained by using the Nova Reactor.

Ok, I'm just blind then.
*Looks back at the leak I saw*
...well that and this thing is blurry and has a bad resolution lol.

I'm bit concerned about the close combat. Everything seems to be bit weaker in combat as there are no attack bonuses from charging or additional close combat weapons and pistols kick in only after a round of combat. On the other hand hidden fists are valid as ever, although with less attacks and to hit modifiers for them as well. Looks like the melee units are even more dependent of their sergeants than before, on the other hand they now always die last. Well time shows how it goes, but somehow my feeling is that stuff like assault marines are still quite bad when they don't do much damage and opponent can just retreat from combat and shoot them afterwards.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.

To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.

It is really a question of targets. Against Toughness 4-5 & 8-9, the Gravgun only suffers from less range and does more damage against 2+ & 3+ Save targets if you are not willing to risk blowing yourself up. Every time you need more damage for a Plasmagun, you need to risk death. This means Gravguns are the superior choice against heavy infantry, armored vehicles, and monsters since you have a chance of doing up to 3 wounds on a single shot. Plasma is better against light/medium infantry that only have 1 Wound.

Against Toughness 5, the grav-gun wounds on a 4+ versus the plasma gun's 3+; against Toughness 4, the grav-gun wounds on 3+ but overcharge plasma wounds on 2+. Similarly, overcharge plasma wounds on 4+ instead of 5+ against Toughness 8. Further, the two wounds from an overcharged plasma gun is better than the d3 wounds from a grav-gun against targets with precisely 2 wounds - including Terminators and Primaris Marines.

The plasma gun is better or equal against any one-wound model whatsoever (so the majority of basic units in the game), and overcharging the plasma is often better against multi-wound models as well and almost always better vs. 2 wound ones - and the plasma gun has 6" more range and costs less. Yes, there's a risk of blowing yourself up, but the new rules for Captains (among other things) point towards that being easy to mitigate.

Caederes wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Caederes wrote:

Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?

The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.

Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.

The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.

It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.

In what way was I implying it isn't a good unit?
I'm just saying that it's not quite as cheap as it looks to be.

I didn't mean that you did. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just saying, it seems awfully strong at least on surface level. People will probably do a ton of analysis, math based and otherwise, in the coming months to discover where the cheese is. I'm just now looking at what high toughness good save wounds cost in general. And if you can get T7 3+/5++ wounds that fly and fight pretty damn well for a bit over 10 points a pop, you'll probably see quite a few of those ^_^ Unless that's what the going rate for monstrous wounds is, but then what would be the point of one wound elite guys that cost 25 points a pop or even up to 50 points per wound?

I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Ok, I'm just blind then.
*Looks back at the leak I saw*
...well that and this thing is blurry and has a bad resolution lol.

Don't worry about it, these images are fairly hard to read, I can barely make out the differences in the numbers for the varying saves on the Riptide sheet myself!

There's some major changes with points though. I swear we saw the wargear points section for Chaos Marines earlier but I can't find it anywhere.

Anyway, I like how points costs for weapons aren't baked into unit prices. It makes future balance updates far easier to implement because if the Plasma Gun (for example) is deemed too cheap then it can simply have its points adjusted, or if it's just a certain unit that abuses the weapon then raising that units' points is an alternative.

I'm extremely curious about those Necron rules. Is that -2 (or better) AP for Gauss active at all times even for the basic guns? Seems a bit crazy.

rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(

Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake

I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.