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Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.

Slave wrote:

 SeraphimXIX wrote:

Slave wrote:
I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.

It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.

This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.

Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.

The regular screamer killer configuration should never be STR 6. The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.

I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.

STR 6 is sad. Hell, STR 9 was a shock when they lowered it the first time.

I really need to see this.

If they are available in broods, it won't suck as bad.

Consider: The design space has changed a lot. Carnifexes used to be the meanest thing in town.

But now you have biotitans like the Trygon and his bigger forge world sisters. You have Knights and such in other factions.

A screamer-killer is still a wrecking ball that hits like a truck, but it's a small enough wrecking ball that you can spam it.

And given the small stature of the model next to those huge things, a swarm of them is the way to make them stay scary.

(Incidentaly if we can have a plastic dreadnought the size of a leviathan, I want a plastic super-Carnifex to the same tune.)

Hoping someone posts AM leaks soon!

Yea the carnifex is tiny now compared to the other bug kits, makes more sense to tone him down then have it remain like 7th where fore some reason he was naturally stronger then every other big bug despite being 1/3 the size.

Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.

I feel like the OP will have HEAPS of updates required in the next few weeks, due to leaks.
Pretty please PM me of anything that pops up in the thread, I would prefer 5 PMs of the same thing then none (makes it so I can do quick updates at work.)

If someone posts something, and you think it should be in the OP, press quote on their post, select all and copy, then just paste in a personal message to me

I really appreciate all the support everyone has been providing so far in helping keep the OP up to date!

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.

It says he can only cast 2 a turn.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.

It says he can only cast 2 a turn.

Ah fair enough. There is so much info being dumped my reading comprehension is being affected.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.

It says he can only cast 2 a turn.

Ah fair enough. There is so much info being dumped my reading comprehension is being affected.

Don't worry about it mate, we all have been off so far. As you said, data dump overload.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
matched play carrying over the psychic power rule of 1. so much for being able to have reliable access to catalyst.

I've read it over about three times and I'm just hoping that it's something that tournaments ignore....or that the points costs for psykers is much lower than it was. Picking the power is great. Everyone being able to cast is great. It appears that having more than 3 psykers in any army is not great.

If I were to guess armies that tend to be psyker heavy will have ways to keep the Rule of One from crippling them. The Tzeentch book from AoS has a lot of extra spells to help keep Tzeentch wizards from running out of different spells to cast. I would guess that in 40k armies that tend to use a lot of psykers will either get loads of spells to pick from and/or certain exceptions to the Rule of One.

Problem is this is yet another non-scalable rule. Psykers have bigger impact the smaller the game you have. Fine if you are on the exact point value designed, bad if you want smaller or bigger battle.

I hate unscalable rules. Rules should work equally well whether you play 1000 pts or 5000 pts.

All these Tau leaks and no Orks???

Where are the Tyranid rules?

And why is the Carnifex suddenly lame? Is it still T6?

changemod wrote:
Yeah okay, the new points system is just downright -hideous- for ease of use.

Also I see Kroot Hound spam becoming a thing: 4ppm assault chaff with a high move rate has all kinds of applications for Tau.

People modelling them as assault drones instead of unfluffily having swarms of hounds with no actual Kroot perhaps?

To be fair the points sheet isn,t made to be easy to use but easy to update. Power is for ease of use.

Frankly I'll take a slightly less convienent points system that can be rejiggered to be more balanced on the fly and only needing to print 1-2 new pages from a pdf to update my book than what we currently have.

Power will let you play games more quickly. Points will (in theory) let you play games more fairly.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

It reduces the number of places they need to go in and fiddle with the point costs. If the powerfist is too cheap, they change the cost once and call it a day. No need to hunt down a lot of individual places where the cost might occur if it was pre-calculated.

This has flaw included in it as well. It assumes everybody benefits from weapon equally but obviously not every wielder of powerfist is equally good target for powerfist.

Power fist should cost differently based on who's wielding if you really want to balance it.

Slave wrote:
I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.

Don't have my 2ndEd dex handy at the moment, but think he was S6 then, and tougher than he was strong.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Where are the Tyranid rules?

And why is the Carnifex suddenly lame? Is it still T6?

As others have said, it hardly looks lame especially not at that point cost.

Quite surprising, there isn't more leaks for Tyranids and especially Chaos Daemons. Alot of places, have the indexes on hand already .

 rippounet wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?

So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).

It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.

Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.

I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.

Or decide not to fight it, take mind set you go second and just flood in units.

So having time to mull stuff over away from the internet I'm actually thinking we're seeing future proofing not just in the points costs for some weapons (namely on Primaris Marines), but in the keywords. Forge World, Sept, Order...it looks like in the future we should be seeing more subfaction keywords that will help create greater divergences in how armies are constructed out of any single codex.

Yea, the benefit being, you've seen your enemies deployment, getting to place more units afterwards allows you to counter deploy more wisely.

I do remember this being a thing back in earlier editions.

Im just shocked that the guy placing 5 Imperial Knights is always gonna go first now.

Deshkar wrote:
Quite surprising, there isn't more leaks for Tyranids and especially Chaos Daemons. Alot of places, have the indexes on hand already .

Some leaks are text only as well. Granted not everyone has a camera capable of taking high enough quality images to leak the books, but it's surprising the number of leaks we have yet still are missing large swathes of armies from the same book as some of the leaks we,ve gotten.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Yea, the benefit being, you've seen your enemies deployment, getting to place more units afterwards allows you to counter deploy more wisely.

I do remember this being a thing back in earlier editions.

Im just shocked that the guy placing 5 Imperial Knights is always gonna go first now.

And that,s probably why sieze the initative stayed in,

 David Clarke wrote:
Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Anyone notice the Hellblaster Power Level is different in yesterdays' leak and today's published dataslate?

Spoiler:

this is weird. maybe ask about this on facebook, tho I doubt they'll respond to leaks.

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).

Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.

While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?

Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.

Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.

So what are you seeing that looks so good?

I have 6,5k Daemons and 4k AdMech. Both with next to no leaks ;-;

 axisofentropy wrote:

 David Clarke wrote:
Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Anyone notice the Hellblaster Power Level is different in yesterdays' leak and today's published dataslate?

Spoiler:

this is weird. maybe ask about this on facebook, tho I doubt they'll respond to leaks.

The same thing came p with Inceptors too. I think one value is from the starter or perhaps the GW training seminar for 8th while the other is from the index, but that's just a guess.

 rippounet wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?

So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).

It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.

Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.

I don't understand the purpose of this change.

Because elite armies are by their very nature better trained and equipped hence the elite description? In previous editions you had a 1-3 d6 strategy rating that you rolled for first turn... elite armies had 3d6 and horde ones had 1d6 to better reflect how unwieldy each force.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).

Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.

While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?

Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.

Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.

So what are you seeing that looks so good?

Everything in the entire game changed points, and rules. Basically anything that looks good or bad based on the old meta is faulty and we need to forget that it existed. 8th can only really be compared to itself.

Frankly though, that's a good thing because it means we'll need time to unravel and break the game and that will lead to the game getting better in the long run.

Out with the old, in with the new.

Actually makes me really glad I'm starting small with a new army and slowly adding stuff to it a unit at a time. Gives me time to adjust to the new game and increase the complexity of my army more smoothly. Even for existing armies easing in escalation style will likely be the best way to get used to how the game now works rather than relying on old meta concepts for an irrelevant edition.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).

Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.

While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?

Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.

Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.

So what are you seeing that looks so good?

Relentless is no longer a rule, and since DC aren't able to use Heavy Weapons, they take no penalty for moving and shooting. The fact they can fire their pistols in close combat is good, it effectively adds an additional attack, a potent one if they have a special pistol. DC can ignore any wound, including a mortal wound on a 6. Instant death is gone, so nothing takes that ability away. They are able to deep strike turn one and possibly even charge turn one, which is new for them. They are fast as hell otherwise. The DC Dread can consolidate 6" instead of 3", which means it can avoid a ton of overwatch. They all can benefit from Sanguinary Priests again, which means an additional +1 to Strength and the possibility of coming back from the dead.

Sanguinary Guard pump out a bunch of wounds now. That's way they cost more. Their Encarmine weapons deal d3 wounds per hit. Add in the Sanguinary Priest near them and they are putting out a lot of high strength, high AP attacks. Sanguinary Guard are in a good place. And if you put an Ancient near them, they are fearless.

And yes, we have seen the data sheets for the characters, and most of them are pretty good.

Legion of the Damned show up yet?

Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.

To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.