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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

Not surprising, sadly. I can't think of a time I ever wanted to field a Captain instead of a Chapter Master since the CM got Orbital Bombardments.

Made for a really cool Raven Guard thing.

Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.

Oh my god. The "Way of the Short Blade" rule. Like 40% of my gaming group play orks. They are gonna hate Farsight. They are lucky tought that I prefer much more Shadowsun

 zedmeister wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

Not surprising, sadly. I can't think of a time I ever wanted to field a Captain instead of a Chapter Master since the CM got Orbital Bombardments.

Made for a really cool Raven Guard thing.

Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.

But Roubote Guilliman can?

Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.

Mmmm the salt from the Tau.. hey keep going, I'm gonna head to the shops and I'll need some for my chips

MoD_Legion wrote:
I'm just browsing through the Tau rules but imho this is not looking good. Stealth suits now only get a -1 to hit penalty when you shoot them from over 12".. and ghosts keels a -2 (if the drone still lives). Guess stealth suits go back on the shelve again.

Yes, because -1 to be hit from over 12" coupled with the "Infantry" keyword(meaning they can automatically claim area cover) for a +1 bonus to their armor save.

Man. Stealth Suits are traaaaaash.

Also all our template weapons are now useless, D6 hits? What a terrible joke, the only use they had was against hordes where you'd score and easy 6-8 hits, or deep striking units doing the same, how is an average of 3.5 HITS going to help against waves of ork boys or tyranid, sigh.

Get over it. Everyone is in the same boat for templates.

Markerlights are pretty iffy, if you dont there is no +BS. I guess they are still required to get relentless as that has been removed from all our battlesuits as well.

Or you take a Target Lock as Support System...

Haha and get this, broadsides used to be 65 points, now they are 80 base with no weapons rofl. Yeah great they cam get 2 HYMPs now, at 40 points a pop rofl. No wonder 2000pts games will no longer last as long, you can bring half the units now :'). Even the heavy rail rifle is 60 points doubling the cost of a single broadside. I'm at a loss for words here how the guy that wrote the tau faction focus was so excited..

Welcome to playing Matched Play...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

Not surprising, sadly. I can't think of a time I ever wanted to field a Captain instead of a Chapter Master since the CM got Orbital Bombardments.

Made for a really cool Raven Guard thing.

Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.

Yeah, but the issue is that everyone theoretically has the authority to call down orbital strikes not just the Chapter Master.

From the rather complete leaks so far i'd say Blood Angels look terrific (synergized stacking of buffs will RULE this edition, and those character models will make some very scary units, hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, additional attacks, etc...).

Tau look significantly less so. They have really doubled down on their one-dimensional play-style, and other than the terrific Kouyon, once-per-game (or twice with the appropriate character) ability, they have very, very little going on for them.

I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there

I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it

Yeah okay, the new points system is just downright -hideous- for ease of use.

Also I see Kroot Hound spam becoming a thing: 4ppm assault chaff with a high move rate has all kinds of applications for Tau.

People modelling them as assault drones instead of unfluffily having swarms of hounds with no actual Kroot perhaps?

 Galas wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.

But Roubote Guilliman can?

"My lord, recon reports a small group of Orks aimlessly wandering the sur.."
"GET ME MY POWERFIST!!!"
"But sir, we can send in the fire raptors or Lieutenant Scrub can handle them"
"POWERFIIISSSSTTT!"

 portugus wrote:
Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.

We saw the Skyhammer/Skyspear stuff from the Space Marine armory--they subtract 1 from their Hit roll against ground targets, add 1 to Hit rolls against "Fly" keyworded units.

 Galas wrote:
I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there

I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it

I think the salt really comes from lack of tricky plays, or strategies. Even the Tyranid faction focus highlighted one or two EASY ways a horde of assault gribblies can be across the table, and assaulting, turn 1. I don't expect that trick for Tau, obviously, but at a glance (a rather complete one thanks to those leaks), there isn't even a roughly equivalent play that the Tau could make to feel good about their chances.

 Galas wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

They all died in Baal.

I guess they borrowed every other successor chapter masters for help as well

MoD_Legion wrote:
I'm just browsing through the Tau rules but imho this is not looking good. Stealth suits now only get a -1 to hit penalty when you shoot them from over 12".. and ghosts keels a -2 (if the drone still lives). Guess stealth suits go back on the shelve again. Also all our template weapons are now useless, D6 hits? What a terrible joke, the only use they had was against hordes where you'd score and easy 6-8 hits, or deep striking units doing the same, how is an average of 3.5 HITS going to help against waves of ork boys or tyranid, sigh. Markerlights are pretty iffy, if you dont get 5 hits there is no +BS, just a reroll on 1 but I guess they are still required to get relentless as that has been removed from all our battlesuits as well.

Haha and get this, broadsides used to be 65 points, now they are 80 base with no weapons rofl. Yeah great they can get 2 HYMPs now, at 40 points a pop rofl. No wonder 2000pts games will no longer last as long, you can bring half the units now :'). Even the heavy rail rifle is 60 points doubling the cost of a single broadside. I'm at a loss for words here how the guy that wrote the tau faction focus was so excited..

Everything went up in points, Stormravens are closer to 300pts now doesnt mean the balance is off or is bad just means games of the same amount of models will be 2500-3k points instead of 2k.

IMO the Tau -1/-2 is fine for those stealth units, there will be other modifiers here and there too. It may be a slight nerf but looking over all it might be balanced.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 portugus wrote:
Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.

We saw the Skyhammer/Skyspear stuff from the Space Marine armory--they subtract 1 from their Hit roll against ground targets, add 1 to Hit rolls against "Fly" keyworded units.

Thanks! Better than it was at least.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

Not surprising, sadly. I can't think of a time I ever wanted to field a Captain instead of a Chapter Master since the CM got Orbital Bombardments.

Made for a really cool Raven Guard thing.

Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.

What pissed me off were two things.

1. You could take TWO in the same detachment

2. Ultramarine's could take one in addition to Calgar... Boy that all seems canon

So while it sucks for anyone playing a successor chapter, I am not really too upset with it.

changemod wrote:
Yeah okay, the new points system is just downright -hideous- for ease of use.

I don't see it?
You look at the datasheet, pick the options you like, look up the cost of the unit and the options. Bam, done, next unit.

Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?

To me it seems like this is a throwback to few editions ago where a Marine or Chaos Marine army could use points efficient shooting units coupled with at least two good assault units in Rhinos, either for counter-assault or getting to the enemy that camps.

And if an army like that actually works, like it used to, instead of 'let's spam formations that give me the most free stuff possible' I'm in awe.

Wow, Tau just got FAST. Target Lock is definitely gonna be my go to support system for all suits. Removing the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons (why yes, I do want mobile Broadsides, thank you), removing the penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons (Crisis Suits moving between 9" and 14" a turn and firing at full BS? Um, all of the yes), and gaining the ability to fire rapid fire weapons after advancing at -1 BS?! Between that, our tanks getting movement 12" and our infantry having 6" or 7", mobile Tau just became godly. A Coldstar Commander (who is finally worth taking!!!!) is moving 40" a turn and still hitting on a 2+. My Tau are very happy with this.

Not to mention Advanced Targetting System. Increasing the AP values of all weapons by 1 (AP 0 becomes -1, AP -1 becomes -2, etc) is just plain good. Nothing more needs to be said, that is just good.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I think Tau, particularly mobile Tau, are gonna be in a good place in 8th. Yeah if you played gunline Tau you may be a bit SOL here, but the army is in a good place no matter how you look at it.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there

I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it

I think the salt really comes from lack of tricky plays, or strategies. Even the Tyranid faction focus highlighted one or two EASY ways a horde of assault gribblies can be across the table, and assaulting, turn 1. I don't expect that trick for Tau, obviously, but at a glance (a rather complete one thanks to those leaks), there isn't even a roughly equivalent play that the Tau could make to feel good about their chances.

Sure that's one thing, but man...Pathfinders are going to be a big role here.

Their Grav-Inhibitor Drones are going to be a must have versus assault armies.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Why do you guys think that tournaments are going to go over 2k? They could just go to 1.5 instead. Just because the points adjustment means that everything you take now is more expensive doesn't mean you up the points limit but keep it the same, results in new lists and more interesting decisions at the list building stage that way

Because the detachment that should be seeing the most play is the Battalion Detachment, which requires 2 HQ and 3 Troops. Jumping the price of those units up means that most of the armies will have little room for choice. Which means a Space Marine army is going to be pretty much a carbon copy of another Space Marine army at its core. And that just makes the game boring. More points equals more choice, which means more enjoyable gameplay.

When I first saw the Battalion I thought it looked hard to get. Then I realised you're basically there with the marines from the starter. Just need 1 more squad of Intercessors.

The thing is, I am at nearly 1500 pts with most of the basic units I would run. And then I remembered that I need a third troop, so I am over that even with a 90 pt Camo Cloak Sniper Scout Squad (tm). I can't even come close to my basic army without 2000 pts.

As long as there are generic BA librarians I'm doing Order of Blood in 8th.

 Latro_ wrote:

Balor wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Complete re-balance of the game means old worries and perspectives are irrelevant until we see them play out. Plus it looks like 2K is the new 1500pts of 7th so the price increases will be commiserate with increased game size.

100% ^ This!

yea looks to me tournaments are gonna be 2000min more like 2500
esp the streamlined rules likely faster games...

although I don't see the game being faster than before (some stuff will be faster while other thing will slow the game down), it would be really sad if GW starts to remove the powercreep and than the community starts doing it by increasing the point level.

In tournaments, players should have room on the table to move and make decisions when building an army (instead of just taking everything).
1850 in 7th with all the free stuff was already too big, no reason to not take the chance with 8th and scale it down to 1250-1500 points per game (and making more games)

I mean there are some very cheap models in the game, with the hard hitters being more expensive
So instead of the minimum amount Fire Warriors and 3 Riptides and a Sturmsurge, we get a lot more FW and just 1-2 Riptides or a Sturmsurge

Of course all those that have 3 Riptides, 9 Ghostkeel and 1 Sturmsurge now want to use all their models in a tournament game, and I have Space Wolves now worth 20k points here, but I still don't want to see all of them on the table outside Apocalypse
but it is always that
I want to run 3 Biker units and 3 units of Jump Marines but that won't fit in 1850, lets play 2000 and the other guy wants to play 2250 because he likes to have one more tank etc
Keep it with 1500 or below and make decisions, and start thinking how you get your army working instead of just put everything inside or copy&paste the generic list

I know people on the internet like to jump to conclusions, but the points increases that Tau are seeing (as are CSM, which has been extensively covered) are not exclusive to them. The increase of points values on many units was necessary to balance them for their utility. CSM saw pretty much the same thing - good units got their points costs increased, bad units got their costs decreased (just look at the Lord of Skulls, losing like 400 points because he was previously worse than hot garbage).

All of this means two things:

1) Your games will be faster to play. This isn't just important for tournament games, though they do benefit. Whereas a game at 1850 could easily have taken 3 or 4 hours, expect that game to be completed in 1.5 -2 hours (roughly of course). So whether you had a great game or a bad game, it'll be faster, letting you play more games and letting you actually get in a full game if you only have 2 hours to play.

2) Your units that previously you took because they were OP OP are still going to be fine. The nerf hammer isn't coming to make it so that your favorite unit isn't good. It's coming to make it so that your friend's favorite unit actually has the ability to not auto-lose to your favorite unit just because it happened to have substantially worse rules.

In summary, If you want to have fun, it sounds like this edition will be tons of fun. If you want to win, focus on tactics and it sounds like you will find victory this edition.

Every edition means change and therefore profits for GW as people adapt to those changes. But the longer you stick with it, the less it costs you when these changes come around because you'll already have most or all of what you want or need.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yes, because -1 to be hit from over 12" coupled with the "Infantry" keyword(meaning they can automatically claim area cover) for a +1 bonus to their armor save.

Man. Stealth Suits are traaaaaash.

The point of stealth suits was to dance on the 18" range and use the ghostkeel formation ability to hit vehicles/stuff on the rear or with no cover. They wont be hiding in terrain if they are doing their job, but granted a +2 save in terrain is neat.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Get over it. Everyone is in the same boat for templates.

Fair enough, however it does take away the 1 use we still had for hammerheads, and really the use I personally had for riptides, it just removes options without giving anything back.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or you take a Target Lock as Support System...

Which takes up 1 its valuable slots which is hard to read but looks like its just 3 slots to fill with weapons AND support systems, and reduces BS by 1 when you use it.. yeah great option because our to hit is so wonderful as it is.

There are just so many way to get reroll on 1's to hit, what is the use of having 3-4 different way of getting that as it wont stack (most likely). To be fair though I'm prolly missing some things in combination with the new rules but at first glance it looks exactly like I feared. They nerf some key units that get abused (rightly so I guess ) but we don't really get anything back, even the gimmicky things like Ethereals now are useless as it still has the same never used abilities, but the one useful one has been replaced by an ability that you can get from 3 difference sources. But I guess we'll have to wait and see how it goes but as others said we look even more 1 dimensional than before.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops

They all died in Baal.

I guess they borrowed every other successor chapter masters for help as well

Yes, every single one; 993 nameless Chapter Masters died on Baal, only to be replaced by Primaris Marines. As Dante jet-packed away, he was heard to utter the immortal line "begun, the prime Wars have."

 Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote:
The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?

Or it is part of the blood angel keyword he has.

matched play carrying over the psychic power rule of 1. so much for being able to have reliable access to catalyst.

Cool. Thanks a lot Ghaz

Man I play my favorite armies are DE and GSC... come on leaks!