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Daedalus81 wrote:
Do we know what Living Metal does?

Something about restoring wounds automatically. We still haven't seen the specific text/leak.

 Luciferian wrote:
Wait a second, where are Lieutenants on the space marine points list?

After the librarians. 70 points per guy, two per slot can be taken. I saw the dataslate today. Re-roll ones on wound rolls to nearbby units. Can have a power sword or auto bolt rifle (which is a piece of trash, I don't understand why it can't fire the same ammo as the normal bolt rifles.)

Eyjio wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From 4chan:
>ghost arc: w14 s6 t6 4+
>living metal, quantum shielding
>you can still make reanimation protocols for the embarked unit
>also at the end of the movement phase you can choose an unit within 3 for additional reanimation protocol rolls (doesn't stack with the resurrection globe)

>you can choose one unit to hold in reverses "on the tomb world"; it can come out within 3 of the monolith but more than 1 from the enemy at the start of the movement phase

Well those Ghost Ark rules are pretty abysmal. Actually, it's just straight up awful. For 170 points I was hoping it would, you know, not have a 4+ save and die to a stiff breeze like the Annihilation Barge. A Dreadnought gets to survive 42 autocannon shots, yet a Ghost Ark lives only through 28.35! Because it makes sense that an old AV13/13/11 HP4 vehicle is weaker than an old AV12/12/10 HP3 walker, right, and that it's less durable than ever VS autocannons? And it's yet another pointless buff to RP which you'll never get to roll, hurray! Guess I won't be using them then.

Yeah, T6 is surprisingly weak. It does have a lot of wounds, but its going to be easy to strip them with mid strength weapons due to its poor defenses. Not sure I like where they are going with the necron vehicles.
I guess they are trying to base the rules on their fragile appearance. Which makes sense, I guess. I don't like the 5th ed vehicle design anyway. The only good one were the scythes, and of course they fethed that up with the nonsensical "shoot me here" cockpit.
Of course, you just know they will release new, more durable looking necron vehicles that won't get destroyed by a stiff breeze.

and drop pods are 103? random number...

Requizen wrote:What is with this sudden ideology that anything without a 2+ dies to a cough? The amount of whining is astounding.

No-one said that, and there's a certain irony in you whining about whining that isn't even there. Do you understand the difference between "wanting a 2+ save" and "wanting one of the old, toughest vehicles in the game to get better than T6 4+"? Come on now.

Vorian wrote:Do you know what living metal does?

Auto heals 1 wound. Good for characters and vehicles if they live one turn. Good luck with that.

it seems like plasma guns are going to be decent all around weapons in this ed

Eyjio wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Spoiler:

From 4chan:
>ghost arc: w14 s6 t6 4+
>living metal, quantum shielding
>you can still make reanimation protocols for the embarked unit
>also at the end of the movement phase you can choose an unit within 3 for additional reanimation protocol rolls (doesn't stack with the resurrection globe)

>you can choose one unit to hold in reverses "on the tomb world"; it can come out within 3 of the monolith but more than 1 from the enemy at the start of the movement phase

Well those Ghost Ark rules are pretty abysmal. Actually, it's just straight up awful. For 170 points I was hoping it would, you know, not have a 4+ save and die to a stiff breeze like the Annihilation Barge. A Dreadnought gets to survive 42 autocannon shots, yet a Ghost Ark lives only through 28.35! Because it makes sense that an old AV13/13/11 HP4 vehicle is weaker than an old AV12/12/10 HP3 walker, right, and that it's less durable than ever VS autocannons? And it's yet another pointless buff to RP which you'll never get to roll, hurray! Guess I won't be using them then.

That's a damn fine statline tho, nothing to sniff at whatsoever.

It's pretty awful in comparison to the old armourbane, slightly faster than a powerfist, AP1 monster that it once was. Hell, they used to ignore invuln saves, let alone armour. I guess it's cheaper than a powerfist now though, so again, while probably balanced, they're randomly changing the flavour of how Necrons play from tough and advanced at a cost, to weak and expendable at little cost. I hate it. I already have a horde army with good shooting in the form of IG, I don't want another.

 benlac wrote:
it seems like plasma guns are going to be decent all around weapons in this ed

and pistols, plasma pistols are gonna be everywhere

 benlac wrote:
Woah, Rhinos are 70 points? Double what it used to be. Hopefully they have great armour for that cost..

T7 10W - no shooting out of it now though.

 benlac wrote:
Woah, Rhinos are 70 points? Double what it used to be. Hopefully they have great armour for that cost..

Look for yourself:

 benlac wrote:
it seems like plasma guns are going to be decent all around weapons in this ed

They always were to me, but I had a 2k list with 31 Plasma Weapons (Including Sternguard and Sargent Plasma-Combis)...now I can Add More Plasma

Eyjio wrote:

Requizen wrote:What is with this sudden ideology that anything without a 2+ dies to a cough? The amount of whining is astounding.

No-one said that, and there's a certain irony in you whining about whining that isn't even there. Do you understand the difference between "wanting a 2+ save" and "wanting one of the old, toughest vehicles in the game to get better than T6 4+"? Come on now.

Vorian wrote:Do you know what living metal does?

Auto heals 1 wound. Good for characters and vehicles if they live one turn. Good luck with that.

Eyjio wrote:
For 170 points I was hoping it would, you know, not have a 4+ save and die to a stiff breeze like the Annihilation Barge.

You more or less said that

Of course Sororitas Rhino's do also get a 6+ invulnerable save (5+ if near St C)

Eyjio wrote:

Requizen wrote:What is with this sudden ideology that anything without a 2+ dies to a cough? The amount of whining is astounding.

No-one said that, and there's a certain irony in you whining about whining that isn't even there. Do you understand the difference between "wanting a 2+ save" and "wanting one of the old, toughest vehicles in the game to get better than T6 4+"? Come on now.

Vorian wrote:Do you know what living metal does?

Auto heals 1 wound. Good for characters and vehicles if they live one turn. Good luck with that.

Are those 28 autocannon shots coming in one turn? Or did you factor the extra wounds from loving metal in?

Seems like they went high wounds to let you get the most out of living metal perhaps?

 Crimson wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Wait a second, where are Lieutenants on the space marine points list?

After the librarians. 70 points per guy, two per slot can be taken. I saw the dataslate today. Re-roll ones on wound rolls to nearbby units. Can have a power sword or auto bolt rifle (which is a piece of trash, I don't understand why it can't fire the same ammo as the normal bolt rifles.)

Thanks, hah, I don't know how I didn't see that. Now how long until we can put Primaris on bikes...

Eyjio wrote:

Requizen wrote:What is with this sudden ideology that anything without a 2+ dies to a cough? The amount of whining is astounding.

No-one said that, and there's a certain irony in you whining about whining that isn't even there. Do you understand the difference between "wanting a 2+ save" and "wanting one of the old, toughest vehicles in the game to get better than T6 4+"? Come on now.

Vorian wrote:Do you know what living metal does?

Auto heals 1 wound. Good for characters and vehicles if they live one turn. Good luck with that.

Irony of ironies.

You think it's simple to bring down a T6 14W vehicle in one turn? Because that would take 56 autocannon shots (28 autocannons).

From 4chan:
>drop pods deploy 9 away from enemy, troops must disembark 9 away from enemy
>can transport 10 infantry models, but they can't have the jump pack, terminator, centurion or primaris keyword

>scarab occult have 4++

>taurox and taurox prime m14" w10 r6 3+
>chimera m12" w10 r7 3+
>veterans have same stats as normal infantry except bs 3+; can have 3 special weapons, a heavy weapon a heavy flamer; 6ppm without equip
>valkyrie m20"(min)-45"(max); w14 s7 t7 3+
>can go in stationary flight mode and reduce its movement to up to 20", but loses the other rules of fliers (-1 to be hit, can only be charged by flying stuff)
>grav-chute deployment still in: if performed when moving more than 20" 1/6 models die
>hellstroke missiles: heavy1 s8 ap-2 d6
>ogryns w3 s5 t5; ws3+; +1 attack on charge; weapon is 12" ass3 s5 ap- d1
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower
>basilisk 240" heavyD6 s9 ap-3 d3, roll 2 dice for determining the number of shots and discard the lower; can shoot on units it can't see
>confirmed characters: yarrick, pask, creed, kell, harker, straken, nork

>mawloc can deploy up to 1" away from enemies but 6" away from other mawlocs
>enemies within 2" get damage according to a d6
>1: nothing; 2-3: 1 mortal; 4-5: d3 mortals; 6: 3 mortals
>can't charge in the same turn; can reenter reserves like before

Storm Bolters are four shots at half-range now... so a Rhino with two is putting out a fair old hail of anti-infantry fire.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 benlac wrote:
Woah, Rhinos are 70 points? Double what it used to be. Hopefully they have great armour for that cost..

T7 10W - no shooting out of it now though.

Its more or less the same vs something like a lascannon

e.g. 4 marines with lascannons average 2.2 hull points in 7th
same in 8th = 1.78 wounds round it up thats 2d6 wounds say 7

3rd left alive ish in both cases

 Shadow Walker wrote:
From 4chan:
>drop pods deploy 9 away from enemy, troops must disembark 9 away from enemy
>can transport 10 infantry models, but they can't have the jump pack, terminator, centurion or primaris keyword

>scarab occult have 4++

>taurox and taurox prime m14" w10 r6 3+
>chimera m12" w10 r7 3+
>veterans have same stats as normal infantry except bs 3+; can have 3 special weapons, a heavy weapon a heavy flamer; 6ppm without equip
>valkyrie m20"(min)-45"(max); w14 s7 t7 3+
>can go in stationary flight mode and reduce its movement to up to 20", but loses the other rules of fliers (-1 to be hit, can only be charged by flying stuff)
>grav-chute deployment still in: if performed when moving more than 20" 1/6 models die
>hellstroke missiles: heavy1 s8 ap-2 d6
>ogryns w3 s5 t5; ws3+; +1 attack on charge; weapon is 12" ass3 s5 ap- d1
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower
>basilisk 240" heavyD6 s9 ap-3 d3, roll 2 dice for determining the number of shots and discard the lower; can shoot on units it can't see
>confirmed characters: yarrick, pask, creed, kell, harker, straken, nork

>mawloc can deploy up to 1" away from enemies but 6" away from other mawlocs
>enemies within 2" get damage according to a d6
>1: nothing; 2-3: 1 mortal; 4-5: d3 mortals; 6: 3 mortals
>can't charge in the same turn; can reenter reserves like before

Awesome news!

Can you ask for info on chapter tactics, Legion traits, tau septs and so on. Nothing has been leaked and I would think those would be important. It makes me ask if they are even in the indexes.

Spoletta wrote:
"Why my dreadnaught requires only 4.155 lascannon hits to go down while a ghost ark requires 10,9?!?!?" Do you see? It's easy to make a counter argument.
Right tools for the right job, comparing the autocannon shots needed to kill it's perfect target (ghost ark) against the shots required to kill a non optimal target (dreadnaught) do not make for a fair comparison, the same i did with lascannons.

Technically, it's 6.17 to kill a Dread and 15.42 to kill a GA but yes, it's a valid point. My issue, though, is that it's a total characteristic change of the vehicle - it's gone from immune to low strength and very weak to high damage to the total reverse - it now hates small arms and loves being shot by high damage. It's a change for no reason other than to arbitrarily change the feeling of the vehicle. Plus, there's a lot more weapons that are S6-8 with damage of 3 or less than there are lascannon equivalents - the lascannons can shoot other units, but the Ghost Ark can't pop back to life if it gets shot to death.

So every faction leaked so far has massive ways to ignore Morale.

Didn't the article say something about having to worry about Morale? "It will apply to almost every unit"

Well, we know that's a lie now. Wonder what else was a lie.

Morale is back to being exclusively for Eldar.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Requizen wrote:What is with this sudden ideology that anything without a 2+ dies to a cough? The amount of whining is astounding.

No-one said that, and there's a certain irony in you whining about whining that isn't even there. Do you understand the difference between "wanting a 2+ save" and "wanting one of the old, toughest vehicles in the game to get better than T6 4+"? Come on now.

Vorian wrote:Do you know what living metal does?

Auto heals 1 wound. Good for characters and vehicles if they live one turn. Good luck with that.

Irony of ironies.

You think it's simple to bring down a T6 14W vehicle in one turn? Because that would take 56 autocannon shots (28 autocannons).

Maybe a bit more due to the living metal rule.
It probably isn't as fragile in practice, but the base stat line looks underwhelming. I doubt that it will go down in a single turn, but it will most likely go down eventually.

Any chanse we can get a better pic on point cost for necron units?
Do a warrior cost 12 now?
And info about hyperphase swords / Dispertion shields?

Requizen wrote:
You more or less said that

I suggest brushing up on your reading skills. The issue is that a vehicle which was stronger than a Leman Russ is now considerably weakened whilst almost every other vehicle became more durable. If you can't see the difference between what I said and your argument, that's on you.

 Latro_ wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 benlac wrote:
Woah, Rhinos are 70 points? Double what it used to be. Hopefully they have great armour for that cost..

T7 10W - no shooting out of it now though.

Its more or less the same vs something like a lascannon

e.g. 4 marines with lascannons average 2.2 hull points in 7th
same in 8th = 1.78 wounds round it up thats 2d6 wounds say 7

3rd left alive ish in both cases

It's no longer exploded or immobilized though.
Also, i'll repeat. Do not make comparisons using the best tools for the job. Sure lascannons kept a good deal of efficency, but it also one of the best weapons in 8th for that role. In 7th you could take down a razorback with 6 plasma shots (less with a lucky roll), now you need 20 (10 if overcharged, which means a lot of dead shooters). I would say that the razorback got quite an improvement in thoughness.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So every faction leaked so far has massive ways to ignore Morale.

Didn't the article say something about having to worry about Morale? "It will apply to almost every unit"

Well, we know that's a lie now. Wonder what else was a lie.

Morale is back to being exclusively for Eldar.

It does apply to every unit though. Its just that there's a way to mitigate it so it doesn't screw you over that much.
It would seem that the more fragile forces get more of a buff against it; orks, ig and nids can just ignore while, while marines only get a reroll and necrons have to rely on their high stats.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So every faction leaked so far has massive ways to ignore Morale.

Didn't the article say something about having to worry about Morale? "It will apply to almost every unit"

Well, we know that's a lie now. Wonder what else was a lie.

Morale is back to being exclusively for Eldar.

Is any army immune to morale? No

Each army has ways to mitigate morale effects which can be picked apart by their opponent

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So every faction leaked so far has massive ways to ignore Morale.

Didn't the article say something about having to worry about Morale? "It will apply to almost every unit"

Well, we know that's a lie now. Wonder what else was a lie.

Morale is back to being exclusively for Eldar.

Yes because there's no way to kill characters or reduce morale. Plus, really, you are using elder to put on the cross? Wasn't everyone just complaining how punishing morale is?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So every faction leaked so far has massive ways to ignore Morale.

Didn't the article say something about having to worry about Morale? "It will apply to almost every unit"

Well, we know that's a lie now. Wonder what else was a lie.

Morale is back to being exclusively for Eldar.

Sisters can ignore Morale how? They have reasonable LD and some +1 LD effects but ignore - can't see it?

Eldar seem to be alone in not having leaks - although everything shown so far is very strong.